Posted: 5/18/2008 3:31:14 PM EDT
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Would the Police be used to confiscate personal stockpiles of food and other essentials and redistribute them to the masses? My Wife and I were talking, We live in a small town with mostly liberal sheeple...............would the Police be ordered by the Selectmen to do this for the comon good? |
| Yes, if things are really bad it won't take long. How long did it take Nagin to start confiscating firearms in New Orleans? If .gov aid isn't soon to arrive, it'll happen with fuel, water and food as well. This is all the more reason to keep a very low profile in your preps. As an example, I don't buy more than 2 or 3 gallon jugs of water at a time. Who's to say the person walking past as you unload the car today won't remember you were the guy with truckload of water when things aren't as normal? |
Only 1 other person knows my preps and he is in on them.........I have known him for 30 years and I am the only "Family" he has. |
| I really think the police will have better things to do if SHTF than take your food. They will probably be battling all the looters and others who will try to take advantage of the situation. Don't get me wrong here, you will still have to protect your own cause they can't protect everybody. |
Subsitute Guns for Food in your statment then go google Katrina. Battling looters? 
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Discussed this with my LE buddies in our group, they feel the same. However, then the powers that be will find the " Right " kind of people who are more then willing to do so. Like it's been said, look no further then Katrina, did they not bring in some of the finest LE to "Help out"? Did good old Mr Chocolate not keep confiscating firearms even after he was told to stop, it was unconstitutional? Not meant to be a slam against LE in general, just towards the JBT's who choose to forget the oath they took. Cheers BT Edit: As to the original Question, Yes. If they know you have it they will take it for the good of the people. If they don't know about it, I believe they will as soon as they complete there welfare checks on everybody, it's for your own good don't you know. Just my own paranoid beliefs. |
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In a short-term SHTF situation, I don't see it being an issue. I a large scale/long term TEOTWAWKI food shortage scenario, it's defiantly feasible that those with farms would be informed that their crops and livestock are going to the community. ETA: People keep pointing at Katrina, but those "cops" were way too busy fending for themselves to participate in any organized supply confiscation. |
+3 most certainly, thats why looties always go for stores and commercial properties when looting. they are guaranteed to get something of worth. this is another reason to build up your preps gradually and in secret. but even in secret, you still need a place and method to secure them. |
+4 Some of the police if not most are sheeple too. The NOLA example will be enbeeded in my mind until I die. Some coward cops fled the city at first sign of trouble, the bad cops ruled the streets and confiscated weapons and the good cops were taking the role of rescuers but were the silent minority and did nothing to stop the confiscation of legal guns. LEO must know that they should uphold the constitution first and side with the people(who are the majority) or next time may resist. I for one will buy me a police scanner to monitor such behavior and alert anyone to it. Confiscating food or weapons should not be an option, I am sure people will share and not let people on their block starve, that is not the America I know. 223SAINT |
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You might as well ask, how much food is too much and considered hording. That's what it will come down to. It won't be government if they are taking pantry levels of food from occupied homes. It would have gone far beyond calling that government. Now pallets of food is typically considered hording and it won't take much of an emergency for that to be made open season. One thing you can pretty much count on is plenty of warning on what's coming and I don't mean wait until your neighbors door is broken in. They will start with the warehouses and then the stores. They start hitting stores and you don't see the event ending anything close to what you would think of as short-term, that's a good time to start stashing food in not easily detected untraditional places. Keep in mind if you do this that a totally empty pantry and dirty dishes (you get my drift) is a dead give away of stashing. Its better to leave a little, 2-3 days etc., in traditional places like your cabinets to be taken with the usual your typical aversion to be being left without anything. Act like its no big deal, that too is a give away of stashing. There's some great reads on this from WWII. Keep in mind, especially in a crisis (Katrina was an exception) historically government will do everything to keep emergency services going to prevent general public unrest. The USSR for example in Stalingrad did this with their civilians even after Stalin refused let them leave. They will feel totally justified in taking your last spoonful because their job is more important. Its for the common good and the end justifies the means. In some ways under the right conditions, they are right too, but they wont' be asking for volunteers either. Not a pretty picture huh? Tj |
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I have a duty and I took an oath to uphold the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. If I am given an order that I feel is either morally wrong or contrary to the Constitution, I will not follow it. Period. Even if the enemies happen to be city, state, or federal officials. The reason it happened in NOLA is because Nagin was working with one of the most notoriously corrupt police departments in the country and he took advantage of it. Something tells me that 90% of my brothers feel the same as me, and such orders would be ignored, regardless of the consequences. |
Thank you for that sentiment and your service. I don't think we're going to see private party pantry raiding for some temporary situation. If it comes down to keeping those who are keeping the order going or not, it may surprise you what will have to be done. It may come down to sacrifice a few to save the many. That's not a slam to our guys serving the public either just a grim look at reality based on history. Katrina though classic in many ways was also very atypical as people in office not so bright and more worried about media coverage than reality made irrational decisions. By the time, there's pantry raiding, the media will be shut down as first step. Tj |
For some reason I saw pantry but read it as panty. +1 for shutting the media down, or at least the part they can not control. BT |
Small town, small Dept? I'm in a small town too, around 4,000 or so they say now, counting the huge influx of Cali replants and illegals. We have the County Sheriff, who under extreme budget cuts and no extension of Federal timber payments, are laying officers off like they have the plague. Our service that we normally have is to say the least stretched thin. So, we were thinking more of facing a threat from our local elected officials and do gooders. There is no end to ones power when there is no one there in position to challenge you. I could very well see the " Liberal Sheeple " going around doing this and more to ensure there own survival and of course for the benefit of themselves, oops..., I meant the people. BT |
Wouldn't it be easier to get by the metric ton from the largest port in America (25 miles away), or buy the truck load from any of the dozen or so ~1,000,000 square foot warehouses within 10 miles, or by the pallet at any of the local grocery stores .,.. rather than a box at a time door-to-door? I'm just saying logistics isn't the stong suit of some here. Wonder how many MREs are at Camp Pendleton, El Centro, Fort Irwin, March and LA Air Force bases?  Has this every happened in American history before? Personally I'm going to be busy handing out my food and support to my fellow Americans the first chance that I get. It's a Christian thing to do so I've been told but it just makes sense. |
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If my memory serves me correctly, I recall someone on this board posting that in Utah, a local .gov was trying to pass a law allowing them to take food from "hoarders" in the event of a flu pandemic or similar emergency. Makes sense as people out there are generally into preparedness (Mormons, for example). Anyone else remember that? I remember showing my wife, and reminding her that it is a good idea to not talk too much about the food and other stores we pack away, since one day someone might just remember we had it. I've also taken to telling friends who think they "Know where they are going when trouble hits" that I am more than likely not going to be here since I'm not ready either, trying to play up the fact that I am into guns more than storing food. I just tell them I'll be at my folks place in the country :) Mike |
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I'm not sure about cops, lets just say the "authorities". So off the top of my head I can think of a couple of incidence of confiscation by the "Man" for the good of the people: Sherman did it during the Civil War to feed his Army. We sort of did it to the Japanese during WWII. Mainly placed US Citizens in a situation where they had to sell out. San Francisco Earthquake. In a SHTF event the government tends to act first and let the Courts tell them what they did wrong later. |
Yep in Nawlins Rent-A-Cops from Kalifornia slamed an old woman in her own home for her guns and preps. To serve and protect (bitches) |
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Sadly, I believe they would herewere "Peace Officers". They were respected, amiable and well loved and appreciated. I hope my comments are more "the exception" and not the rule. Something has happened though, I do not know what it is, or how it happened, okay? However, they seem more like enforcement automitons... No heart, no compassion, and not too friendly. Heck there are police brutality reports all over, and they seem more likely to tazer you, or beat you into submission for asking them a question... When you consider that, and how they disarmed the populace in New Orleans, yea, I'd say its likely if SHTF they would break your door down and take whatever they want! Be it food, weapons, medical supplies, or whatever, and I'm not too sure they would even need "someone" to tell them to do it! Kind of makes me wonder what the heck went wrong! That we are concerned/afraid of the police? Bottom line as I see it, I have a God given right to defend my family, so you ask for help, I'll help you, you try to leave my family defenseless and to starve to death, well... "over my dead body". |
Yes, of course. |
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In a SHTF event, no; I seriously doubt the criteria for a definable SHTF would result in police going to targeted homes to raid stockpiles of food. Remember a SHTF event is short-term in duration, so with the expectation to have road infrastructure back to allowing deliveries of food back into the affected A.O. with 1-4 weeks, it’s highly unlikely. Now in a EOTWAWKI event. . .all bets are off. In either situation, the best strategy is to keep your mouth shut about your preps, make sure your family does the same and don’t advertise what you have. |
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If anyone came into my home with intention of leaving with my property they will end up on the other side of my 12 gauge. I don't care what gov't acronym they have stuck to their chest if they're in my house they're a fucking corpse. Looters will be shot. Looting my house with a badge only gives me something shiney to shoot at in the dark. I also live on enough property that we could dig a quick discrete grave without any neighbors noticing. |
The police will kill you to enforce a bogus traffic or parking ticket, do you not think that they will follow any orders given? I've been behind the thin blue line, go look at some of the "morale" tshirts and stickers sold on LE sites, my favorite was always, "I'm a member of the largest street gang in America." This IS the attitude of a majority of the cops in my area of the country, the northeast. Even in more relaxed areas, the mentality extends by association, lets say an officer in NYC oversteps his bounds with someone over something like a bogus parking citation. Now the "suspect" doesn't just roll over and grab his ankles. He now becomes a perp, and the overstepping po escalates the violence by turning a verbal confrontation into a physical one by attempting to place his hands on the "dirtbag". Again, the guy doesn't just roll over and resists a false arrest. Now he's a copfighter and the officer feels that severe bodily injury or death will come from the furtherence of this altercation and attempts to shoot the "badguy". Only problem is the guy still isn't having any of this and with his own life in danger, takes lethal action. Now EVERY cop in the country will support the fallen "hero" and HUNT down the evil, worse than a pedofile, copkiller. No one will ask why a guy with no rap sheet, and no priors was hassled and drawn down on. No one will question whether the officer was right or wrong, no one will question how a $25 parking ticket turned into a lethal encounter, the rule in this country is when the police come knocking, you roll over and grab your ankles. You could have changed over stepping officer to corrupt narco detective looking for a payout and getting shot, and the initial reaction would be the same, "Oh my God, a brother officer was killed, lets get this scumbag." Most cops don't want to serve the public, and protect life and liberty, etc.. They want to carry a gun with the badges authority to enforce their will on others. There's a famous cop saying regarding wrongful arrests, "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride." It means that regardless if you have done anything wrong, you will be detained against your will by me and my gang, if you fight, we will gang up, if you still manage to win, the rest of our gang will come and get you, you have no choice but to submit. Think cops get brought up on charges for wrongful arrests, think again, as long as they were acting on "reasonable" suspicion, they can pick you up and take you in. WE have let this happen, and now the politicians, and citizenry in general are afraid to upset them. If you don't back the police 100%, you're labeled an outlaw, and you're on their shit list, as a politician anyway. If you want to serve and really HELP the public, become a firefighter or EMT/Paramedic. If you want to serve the county, join the military. Cops at best are in it for themselves first, other cops second, and the public third, maybe. When our LE stop putting "ticket cars" on the road, stretch enforcing minor technicalities to line the coffers of the states, cities, towns, and villages that they work for, then they can start to earn back the respect of the public, instead of the fear that they now have from the public. Like I've said, I've been on both sides, and am now a private citizen(not really, just not LE, which to LE, by the way, means civilian) by choice. If you see me coming to your house with lights and sirens, I am there to help you, and do nothing but help you. |
| In a shtf sheeple would be in need and therefore lining up to get "help". In a small town especially, if you had not been seen at a line for help, they would probably be curious as to why. Those that were given aid could be on record. Wouldn't take long before they would be checking door to door to the residences that had not been heard from yet just to make sure everyone was "ok". |
We don't declare Martial Law anymore than we declare war.  Taking someones property and that property being essential to their life violates, you count them, the bill of rights every which way. Like I posted before, we get down to government raiding private citizens homes for food, we don't have a government anymore certainly not one that resembles anything like the United States. Even if people do survive, we'll have bigger problems to come. A lot of people see NOLA Katrina from different angles. Most of us agree, there was a desentigration of social order. I take it one step farther, there was a total collapse of government. It took the US Army/Coast Guard to step in wrenching government away and setting it back on course. That's when the gun confiscations stopped. General Honore is a true American patriot and he showed his colors at Katrina not only by treating the victims of Katrina as citizens but wrenching power from the corrupt finger pointing politicians that let the civil rights in the area degrade to the level it was. Not my fault, Bush's fault, and take the guns turned to the buck stops here and we won't be taking any guns. I have yet to see or read where the wrenching of power was even authorized or approved. As far as I know, he saw it as the only means to a solution and took it. It truly was amazing after days of constant news stories, once the cigar chomping general started taking a firm hand how fast all the news ended as order was restored. I'm afraid it will never be recorded in history other than a few news articles because it truly showed how fragile our rights were at the local government level. That, and of course, how fragile our rights as citizens were. We didn't need a rash of state laws telling us its against the law to take our guns, the people needed those laws to instill trust in local government again. Where this takes us is Katrina was a short term event even for the most stupid or criminal. I don't see any regional catastrophic event where the US government will sit idly by while people are being systematically killed via starvation thus genocide unless that government doesn't exist as we know it. Tj |
Our rights are only as fragile as we allow them to become.
Well said. If that's true, then we have much larger problems than food confiscation. Shane |
i believe, in general, your local LEOs will call BS on orders like this. the ones are worry about are the imports and/or private contractors. or possibly gung ho NG. i'm glad i don't live in town and i think if this happens the sparsely populated area i live in will be overlooked. |
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We have 3 full time Cops.......the Cheif is a known asshole....the other 2 have kinda been rotating door Cops....They don't stya long and I Don't see them much at all. My gut feeling is the younger Cops will do as the Select Board Tells them to. Depending on the length and severity of the SHTF, I would expect them to do anything , up to and including, herding us all together, for our protection. I guess I am paranoid.or I fear my government ....or Both!!!  |
Wrong, if a cop, any cop is faced, especially in a major SHTF situation with losing HIS families' sustenance, or taking YOUR families, he won't be calling BS on any orders. This is what's so dangerous about the state of the country we live in now with the city of NY having more cops than the US Coast Guard, and the largest union in California being the state corrections officers union(who do you think got the 3 strikes law passed). The cops need that paycheck in SHTF more than ever, and the "I'm just doing my job" attitude is how they justify enforcing un-Constitutional and illegal laws now. SHTF, all they need is some town board, etc. to make it a "law" and they will enforce it, maybe not all, but the vast majority will. |
LEO in Cincinnati Ohio, I feel the same. I think realistically,when it comes to the Government confiscating food, they would be thinking in terms of the wholesalers, warehouses, and grocery stores instead of the individual single family residence. Most residences don't have enough food to justify the expenditure of the resources that would be required to confiscate the food. As an example, I give you the mad rush in the mid-west every time we're due for a snow storm. Everyone runs out to buy bread and milk. even if they don't eat bread and milk. This is due to the "sheeple"panic attack of being snowed in for 24-48 hours with out enough food, as they don't have enough on hand to get them through 48 hrs! Even with that thought in mind, I am a very strong believer in keeping the existence of ANY preps on a "need to know" basis. Maintaining a "Low Profile" can not be understated, in my opinion. To be realistic, if the situation were to ever get so bad that the Government would attempt to confiscate food, then things are bad enough that you should probably have left for your Bug Out location along time prior. |
I'm not trying to start an argument here, but... Please do not make blanket statements about what "any cop" would do. While acting as an inter-city LEO, I have faced SHTF situations (2 weeks of full scale riots), over the last 16 years, I have had to do things that did not sit well with members of parts of the community, or our city's politicians, which put my job and my families income at great risk. I have been shot at, I have been sued in civil court, by the same individuals who were convicted in criminal court. I've been around the block a few times. I can still look at myself in the mirror each morning. Integrity is what you do when you know no one is watching. As a Marine, I took my oath very seriously, as a LEO, I still do. Please do not begin to think you can predict that during a SHTF incident, my character and integrity will suddenly go to hell just because things got a little "interesting". You don't even know me. |
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You guys can tell from this conversation how important it will be to protect local farmers. They are not all heavily armed like my family farm will be. I am more afraid of local government interferance in the management of the farm. All I can hope is that they show up to people who are more heavily armed than they are, which is entirely possible, and they treat us with respect and trade for meat and milk. The farm can't sustain the number of cows they have currently. Milking that many twice a day will not be possible for long term. This means that we will have plenty of beef for trade for fuel and equipment. The thought that they could try and come in force to take more beef than we are willing to let go, is pretty frightening. The milk will not have anyplace to go so most of it will be given away, so our local folks will be in luck. Maybe we will even start making cheese on a small scale. The fact remains, if its okay to raid a warehouse, is it okay to raid a farmer? Its alot different when you are face to face with the owner of the food you want to take. I just hope that he is well armed enough to make the sheeple think twice. |
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The one small grocery store we have in town will be picked clean in a mater of hours if it gets bad in weeks if it slowly comes on.........The next biggest town has only 1 grocery store also ans a few [4 or 5] convenience stores. No warehouses or anything else like that. Wal-mart is in the next town over but they are not a Super Center, and will be picked to the bone pretty fast. The towns being pretty spread out by NH standards are all very dependent on 18 wheelers brining in supplies.....no usable train tracks anymore and maybe 2 general aviation airports......I think 1 can take C-130's..............So air resupply would not be practicle for the masses to survive. The point of Cops giving up his job is a good one. Would you?.......if you were not prepared? I work in manufacturing.....jobs in my company have been going to Mexico for years, If it gets to shitty companies like mine will be down to bare minimum and only because we provide parts to the Military. Being a Tech , I may or may not have a job in a SHTF situation. Of course the Bank would probably get here first and force me out of the house!!!!! |
Thank you for your service and honorable character. There are however many people who serve in the law enforcement and military community that will follow the orders they are given. I am not trying to argue, but history shows that people will often fall back on the "I was only following orders" excuse for actions that are neither honorable or permissible. The civilian (or better the non member of the above groups) has a real chance of having their rights violated, or possessions looted. All it takes is for a group of people to convince themselves that it is in their best interests to do so. The best chance we have is to try to stay unnoticed by them. |
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On the subject of Katrina; some of you may not realize that in many instances, it did'nt matter how many preps you had or how well stocked you were. After martial law was announced, there were certain portions of the city that were ordered to be evacuated whether they were flooded or not. We (the citizens of the area) were "treated" to several interviews from people who reported that they had plenty of food and water, but were forced to leave their houses and relocate. Helicopters were sent out at night with infer red and night vision equipment to look for individuals still in the area, whether they were in their own homes or not. This would be followed by ground forces to remove those individuals. To me, martial law is all bets off and, while I do stock and plan for a shtf scenerio, I have no grandios fantasy about defending my property "to the end" against any govt. faction. The fact is, if the govt. wants it, they will take it. That is when you cease to become an equal citizen/ human in their eyes and become only an "obstical". Like it or not, THAT is the reality. |
Robie one thing I did not know about Katrina and New Orleans is the announcement of Martial Law. I'm afraid with that, local, state, and federal are going to have the last say so. I agree with you assesment. |
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Good thread so far. One thing I am not 100% sure on, but heard, was that during katrina some blackwater/blackwater'esk "operatives" were deployed. I don't know about you, but these are the guys that I see them using, as opposed to NG, or PD. Realistically if it got to the point where they were doing the black choppers in the middle of the night with infrared and thermal imaging to check houses, you can bet that I would be the F out of there well before that happens. Thats the major thing i think people are missing. Why wait around for the JBT's to kick in your door and remove you and your stuff? If you can leave, pack up the cats and beat it to high ground. Don't take this the wrong way, I am not bagging on the folks in NOLA. I am just saying if you can read the writing on the wall, do something about it before things get bad. I just wish I lived out in the country where no one would really be able to know what I have just by looking. Too bad i live in a sub division with lots and lots of neighbors, good folks, but they can easily see what I have in my garage or the stuff I take in and out of the house. Also don't forget about your vehicles and/or fuel. My wife's great grandpa had a small fishing boat up in AK during the start of WWII. right when the US jumped in, they took his boat (their only source of income). They gave no IOU's or $$$ or lube or anything. I could expect our current flock of  . I have since just about given up. |
I totally agree with the point you make. Character and integrity is not something that can be "issued" to an individual. Just because one's occupation is in Law Enforcement, it can not be assumed that individual's integrity is above or below the norm. It does mean that this individual will be held to a higher standard, buy society, by the courts, and most importantly, by themselves. As to the Government confiscating food, there exist several executive orders that can be placed into effect during a state of emergency. I think it requires the President to enact them. Confiscating food stores is one of them. There is one for fuel, one for generators, one for vehicles... Once again, as I read articles on the executive orders, I got the impression that they would concentrate on businesses. Go straight to where they knew the supplies they wanted existed. Remember that time would be an issue during a state of emergency that would require these types on confiscations. They wouldn't want to spent two weeks searching private residences onlyto locate the same amount of food they could find in 30 minutes. Batmanacw, as to farmers and their crop/livestock being confiscated, I could see this as being an issue once the crops are brought in form the field. I could see a much more likely threat to the farmers coming from looters. Especially those who escaped the urban areas. The amount of manpower it would require to guard a 500 acre farm, 24/7, then have reserves (we called them "reac teams" when pulling guard duty) that could respond to assist those who made contact would be huge. You would not want to pull your guard units from else were, unless the initial contact was a ruse and they were raiding you in different locations. |
You are not starting any argument with me, as I specifically ended my post with the text in blue actually considering yours, and other LEO's posts in this forum and a few other people that I know in LE's opinions. It's not the stand up guys I'm worried about, but as you know the system has made standing up as a LEO very difficult. As others have said, LE used to be about keeping the bad guys in check so the other 99% could live in peace. Now almost everyone in America has had a negative run in with the police at one time or another. Pulled over as part of a bs ticket campaign to increase revenues(illegal highway tax), a dui from blowing a number that used to be legal even though they weren't at all impaired, a bs domestic violence beef, etc. Cops used to be a part of the community in this country, now the mentality is that they exist to control the community. I know it's not everyone, and less so among the officers of a previous generation, but talk to the new rookies out of the academy, and tell me that the attitude hasn't shifted. ETA Look at those BATF's conducting a bs raid on Cav Arms and tell me that they're serving and protecting the public. |
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45 stops-em-quick, Agreed I do not want to hijack this thread. I for one would be very interested in Batmanacw starting a thread as to protecting a 500 acre farm against looters. I think this would have alot of applications for those who have BO locations. The foremost thing I learned from reading "Lights Out" was how vital manpower was in guarding a community. Could a family of four really be safe at a BO location? |