[ARCHIVED THREAD] - picking an AR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/28/2008 2:45:36 PM EDT
| Hey guys need some help....I have been in massive debt payoff mode and am just about done.....I have decided to reward myself when I pay off the last credit card..(next month WOO HOO!!) buy buying an AR....I dont have one now......I havent been around them in 18 years and man there are some models out there now that Im clueless......I want a colapsable stock carbine but from there I am clueless...I used to be really good with iron sites but 42 year old eyes are way different than 25 year old eyes......thinking of one of the ....well heck I dont know what they are called but you can add various sites and optics to the grooved flat top reciever....Thinking about buying a bushmaster but im open to any suggestions.........this will be my primary SHTF gun....(replaceing a ruger mini-14)..........so any suggestions......and anyone know about the gas piston replacement that bushmaster is selling ?? they claim its like the AK and makes for better reliability.....Thanks guys |
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In my not so humble opinion: Stick with a good, main manufacturer like Rock River, Bushmaster, Colt, etc.. for your first. DPMS, Cav Arms, etc as well. I would pick up a lightweight carbine - forego the M-4 barrel with its cut, or heavy barrels unless you just like how a HBAR feels. I would recommend Chrome-lined barrels for ease of use (extraction of cartridges, maintenance). It'll run you anywhere from about $900 on up depending on make and model, specifically. But you should be able to find a lightweight carbine - oh yeah, and get the flat-top model so you can mount an EoTech or Aimpoint, if thats your choice. Don't worry about building or parts kits at this point. Just buy one you like, get several extra mags while they are cheap and some ammo for practice. And shoot shoot shoot. And don't buy a case of Wolf as your only ammo - buy some, yes and see how your rifle likes it. Then buy more for range fodder if you like. Enjoy it! You can build one next time around - and there will be a next time around! |
+1 That is exactly what I am going for. Have everything but the aimpoint, which was the lowest priority component. I am getting to like the midlength a lot and do not miss the standard carbine. However, the RRA HBAR middy is unnecessarily front heavy. I am thinking about having mine reprofiled. ETA: Mine was built using an RRA complete upper half, DPMS lower, no-name LPK, and 6 position stock from Armalite. Total cost was ~$640. |
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There's lots of good model choices and if you stick to the better builders you'll be fine. A DI can be a great rifle and many people won't wear one out, but the piston Bushmaster/POF version is a very nice choice being a POF owner myself. POF USA Bushmaster version I wish I had one in the Army honestly. They just run much nicer than a DI to me in how they don't burn up lube the same, stay and run cleaner and don't put the same heat on some of the most important componets of the rifles action like the bolt, extractor, ejector and springs. Either way you'll be good though I'm sure as long as you buy a quality AR, maintain it right, use good mags and keep some quality spare parts around. There are other choices in 5.56x45mm semi automatic rifles though besides just AR's like the XCR, Sig 556, and hopefully soon to be out FN Scar and ACR coming. For a shtf 5.56x45mm rifle though the AR is still the one with the most aftermarket parts available and most number in use in other peoples hands. I guess if I was going to buy a DI these days myself I'd probably buy an LMT or Noveske. |
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Any thoughts on the Bushmaster Carbon 15. My SO has one in a pistol and rifle and the reduced weight means carrying a couple extra meals. So far they have been completely reliable. More so than my conventional AR. The reduced weight to only 5.5# for the rifle was the selling point and she'd find that hard to give back. I like them except the rail seems a little flimsy. Should I be worried about the lack of a forward assist? Here's the link... www.bushmaster.com/catalog_carbon15_AZ-C15M4PRE.asp 
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the uncertain supply of spare parts in the future rules out a piston-operated AR as a first (and perhaps only) SHTF rifle.
+1. ar-jedi |
yes -- don't get one. IMHO, they are crap(*). run the ball up the middle and get a KISS AR from a reputable vendor -- an AR which is constructed of all std/mil piece parts, etc. -- nothing special. the basic AR is a time- and field-proven system. a off-the-shelf AR from vendors such as Colt, BM, RRA, LMT, etc will serve you well, and set of spares for everything that moves/wears can be had for around $50. ar-jedi (*) my buddy's Carbon 15 receiver cracked. nevertheless, here are some opinions for you... www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=362411 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=367463 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=375164 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=374571 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=372757 |
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"yes -- don't get one. IMHO, they are crap(*)." TOO LATE! She has a pistol and the rifle. They have been impressively reliable -so far... Thanks for the links. I did replace the upper of a carbon pistol with an aluminum one. It shoots fine too and is a bit heavier than stock. Maybe I'll consider doing that to a Carbon 15 rifle. nevertheless, here are some opinions for you... www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=362411 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=367463 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=375164 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=374571 ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=372757 |
I remembered one problem with the Carbon 15 rifle. We don't always clean them like we should, seems not enough time  and one of the last trips to shoot it, the bolt was stiff in the upper and wouldn't chamber a round fully. I took it apart and cleaned inside the receiver and all was well. Actually it was probably never cleaned in there and had sat maybe 4 months. Other than that never a problem with the pistols or rifle that I can remember. |
Sorry I don't agree with that as an issue. Yes the piston action parts availability for the POF's could be iffy years down the road as nothing is impossible even though they can't make rifles fast enough, but if you buy a spare piston, op rod and plug you'll be fine and POF sells a replacement parts kit for a $150. At the same time I've never heard anyone breaking them or wearing them out and POF has run their AR's for over 70,000 rounds without any problems so unless your going to have that many rounds around and blow through them fast it's not an issue other than people trying to make it one. For the important componets that commonly break or wear out on lots of AR's like bolts, extractors, ejectors, springs and barrels they use standard AR parts so there is no availabilty issue there any different than it would be for a DI. One thing that is common to piston AR's is that they take that extra heat abuse from the receiver based componets, which is better to than not and you don't hear piston AR's commonly breaking bolt lugs either or wearing out those parts. That's a plus in the longterm as you'll be less likely to need replacements. People are going to have their opinions of course and many love to argue endlessly on this issue and I'm not looking to. There's pages and pages of arguing about it for anyone to read and here and other forums if they want. I'll just say that I'd take my POF AR anyday before any DI out there for shtf if I actually wanted to take an AR. But I don't, I wouldn't grab anything but my M1A.  |
I was liking all I read on the Sig.....Havent seen one in person yet tho |
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There are a number of types of carbines. First is your basic carbine with a standard CAR 4 position stock and handguards You can usually get them with either a light or heavy barrel in either A2 or flat top uppers. Next is the M4 type carbine with an M4 profile barrel, M4 stocks and stock. They are also available with an A2 or flat top upper. The M4 type usually costs more than a basic carbine. The next is the mid-length carbine. Basically a M4 type with the gas port/block moved forward and longer handguards. These are becoming more popular. You can also get a "dissapator" type carbine. This has a 16" bbl but the gas/sight block is moved forward to where it is on a rifle. Again, longer sight plane and A2 rifle hand guards. Stag, Bushmaster, S&W, RRA, CMMG all make decent carbines or you could put one together yourself. |
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+ 1 to the "no POF piston guns" Once one of them can make it through one of tactical responses fighting rifle courses, I might consider one, but the price alone is enough to stay with a DI gun. Properly maintained a DI gun will run just as well as a POF piston gun. +1 to the "no carbon-15s" Range rifle, play gun, third or fourth one for the collection, okay. But for SHTF rifle proven metal guns of good quality. I would go with a 16" gun with a collapsable stock, midlength gas system, chrome-lined bore. Something like a RRA, Sabre, CMMG. That's what I'd go with. Polytech |
I had one of these and sold it, the barrel was waaayyyy too heavy. and the whole gun felt like a lead pipe. I would say a bushmaster light weight 16" carbine. you won't be disappointed. |
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If you are upgrading from a Mini-14, let me go against the grain and suggest this I have only one Model 1 rifle, but she has run just fine. I chuckle when folks ask me " This is pretty nice, who makes it?" and I tell them. I have several AR's, so don't think I am disillusioned. I can tell no difference between my Armalite/DPMS/Model 1. |
Celebrating paying off debt with a big purchase? I hope you're paying cash  Rifle: If this is for standard SHTF (Katrina/LA Riots) most reputable brands will do you just fine since these scenarios don't last more than a few weeks and weapon use is limited. If this is TEOTWAWKI/Red Dawn I'm going to recommend a Noveske N4. Their basic rifle isn't too expensive when compared to Colt and LMT, and the rifle really stands out by sporting a hammer forged, heavily chrome lined barrel that 99.9% of AR owners will never shoot out in their lifetime. GI parts make it so no replacement item is exotic (though never expect to be able to find replacement parts once things kick off, you might find them but don't bank on it). Optics: Iron sights keep it simple, light, inexpensive and are the most reliable but are also the least capable and failing eyesight only compounds it. Even if you go with some kind of enhanced optic YOU STILL NEED BACK UP IRONS! EOTechs/Aimpoints are wonderful and not too expensive but I don't know how they'll handle an EMP, and the batteries will eventually die on you (not a big deal for SHTF but an issue for TEOTWAWKI/Red Dawn). ACOG/Short Dot/other similar magnified combat optics: Have the advantage of not relying on batteries (though, except for the ACOG they do use them for illumination). These bring the target closer to you without bringing you closer to the target but can be more cumbersome than the reflex optics. I don't recommend any bargain optics of any type. They'll wait to fail on you at the most inopportune time, you're better off with irons. Magazines: Aluminum GIs are light, inexpensive and reliable, steel GI types are durable, and PMags are light and durable. Buy lots. Ammo: Never expect to be able to resupply. NATO standard makes the ammo type more common but it also makes it so more people are looking for it for themselves. Common supply centers will be cleaned out almost immediately. What you have on hand is potentially have for the duration of the scenario. Plan your personal stash accordingly. I also don't recommend any piston uppers. They may yet prove themselves and rocket to the top of my list, but they don't have an established track record and have virtually zero replacement parts for any scenario. Again, you can't rely on getting anything you don't have on hand but for this kind of scenario I don't want to put my life in the hands of something that dosn't have a well established track record. |
I just bought one a couple of months ago. Bought a CMMG "Bargain Bin" rifle for $700 a DPMS with a 16"chrome lined barrel and quad rails. Put MI folding BUIS and a CAA vertical foregrip / light adapter. Put a Surefire 6P LED in the grip amd am good to go. I am looking for a good deal on an Eotech 512, and will be adding a 2 point sling (probably a Rocky Mtn Tactical quick adjust) and should be done. I've put several hundred rounds of Wolf through and no issues whatsoever. I've been very pleased with the DPMS. 
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I'm sorry but I don't put much stock in hearsay or opinions of people who not only don't own a POF, but probably haven't even held one much less run one to see first hand. If that's not the case here, than great. Just the same there's not a firearms manufacturer out there that hasn't put out some badly made rifles and had people have problems with them and saying otherwise is nonsense. You can always run the chance of getting a bad weapon no matter what you buy. How they deal with them is important and how they treat the customer that bought it is important also and POF has an excellent reputation for taking care of those problems overall that have happened and Frank stands firm behind his product. I'm tired of reading badmouthing with nothing to back it up besides I heard this, so if there is actually something with substance please produce it. When looking at buying any new firearm your going to get most real info and opinions from the owners and there out there to be found. For POF they have there own industry section so people can go there and get more from actual owners instead of just going I heard this and I heard that because when it comes down to it the gun workd is full of rumors and badmouthing if someone else doesn't like something. Alot it seems to just be what isn't someone elses favorite too and nothing to it. As one owner I know they can make a great rifle/upper and there's not another AR out there right now I'd prefer more. There are lots of owners that have run there POF's hard and testing that has been done and not by POF themselves either. Torture testing Each person should buy what they like and feel the best about it and the nice thing is there are lots of current choices to choose from so good firearms hunting. I already got into what parts are none standard and about replacing them on the POF/Bushy uppers so there's no reason to go further. The DI operating system still runs the way it does though and a POF/Bushmaster piston upper runs the way it does. Each has needs to maintain it and each is a fine choice I feel for a shtf AR. I know what I prefer, but that's me.
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That you can rest assured of......I am lovin the thought of debt freedom....soon |
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I come at this from an end user standpoint. There are many makes and models of AR's out there. Some are better than others. On this board you have some that have experience that they are touting and others that sit in their armchair and spout whatever sounds good to them to make themselves look like they're real important. If you're looking for a SHTF rifle that is there for you quality-wise, the Colt 6920 is a hard one to beat. There are some on here that will spout epithets and curses for this, but I say it because they cost more for a reason. Colt buys the better grade parts from their contractors, does tests to the bolts and the barrels for quality (important so the bolt lugs do not crack from flaws in the metal structure.). There are companies that are better than others. Those that research and make an educated purchase tend to purchase what are called Tier 1 manufacturer guns. Colt is this tier. 2nd Tier I believe are Rock River, Stag, Sabre, LMT, etc... and 3rd Tier are Model 1, DPMS, etc. Guns like DPMS might work well for many people. Their needs may be for a varmint rifle or a target shooter. They may only see a limited number of rounds fired. The barrel steel may not need to be chrome lined for accuracy but for combat it sure should be for worst case scenarios. If you have the money, get a Colt 6920 or 2nd Tier M4. The M4 is light enough for carry and will sustain quite nicely for a training course. Put a quality BUIS such as Troy, Knight, or LMT (Decide if you want a folding vs non folding.) and a red dot optic (Only choices here that should be considered are EoTech or Aimpoint for quality reasons) or just go with the BUIS and see what 1x4 optics or red dots you'd prefer after a while. Now again, opinions are had by everyone. Take mine for what you want. This is coming from someone that's been an LEO since 1994 and has extensive patrol rifle and SWAT experience. I first owned DPMS rifles and they worked fine. But there were a lot of people around me that had DPMS that had issues. I did my research, listened to those that knew what they were talking about, and made my choice and purchase. There are other reliable sites out there as well and I suggest you check intoa few more and see what others say. Then make your purchase, sign up for a really good class, and get the ammunition stored up! |
To go along with what was said in the quoted post, I would add a few things. Many are satisfied with their AR's, no matter the manufacture. You must keep in mind that many who own guns, don't shoot them alot, or run them hard through training courses. Before I upset those out there in their arm chairs reading this, let me say that many individual guns from "Manufacture XYZ" has gone through severl hundred rounds at a session. But I am talking about overall average quality control. I also am a LEO. Our Department bought a few (6-10, can't remember exactly) DPMS 14.5" select fire M4's. Lets just say there were alot of problems. A couple years later (2005) we finally got a Patrol Rifle Program up and running. Only training a few officers (around 125). I assisted with training the first 75 officers that year. We bought around 50 Bushmaster's. The main selling point for Bushmaster, as the Department pricing was about the same, was the free hard case included! Several issues with the Bushmasters. Turned out to be gas carrier keys that were staked, sort of, but not torqued. Armors fixed that issue. The next purchase was for S&W M&P rifles. So far, so good on these. Even these guns used by my Department don't really get shot much. Due to ammo availability, training has been cut to almost nothing. Do not assume that any gun issued by a major department will see/stand up to hard usage. Most Departments don't shoot their AR's that much more than the casual gun enthusiast would. For the average guy who shoots a couple of mags through his AR every now and then, almost any AR will do, so long as it's assembled correctly. For a SHTF gun that you don't have armors support for, I would spend the extra few $ and get one that will stand up to the hard usage and abuse you might be forced to put it through. With that thought in mind, I personally have Colt 6920's as the SHTF guns for my family. If I had to start from scratch, I might take a real hard look at a new CMMG. They claim their bolts and barrels are MP tested. The LMT's are good, but priced close to the Colt's. I might look at a rock River if I weren't concerned about 1/7 barrels (I really like the 75 gr bullets), and I just couldn't find anything else. If you are ever involved in a SHTF event, especially one that lasts for a period of time, you will want the best quality equipment you can obtain. If you just want to shoot an Ar15 because you enjoy doing so, than your standards don't need to be so high. Buy your equipment as if your life and the lives of your family depends on what you purchase, because it just night! |
| I would say, in my experiance, a 16" lightweight Mid or Car wouldbe the way to go. The Lightweight is definatly alot easier to carry for longer periods, The barrel even when smoking hot can still hit minute of man. A2 or flattop is entirely up to your preferance. For the nay sayers on this barrel profile, in a TRUE emergency, you are not looking to getinto a firefight... you are looking to stop any and all problems before it escalades that far. |
Sabre Defense. You can't go wrong with them. Little pricey...sure, but worth every damn penny. www.sabredefence.com/ |
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I have built a number of ARs (8 of them actually) some are high end with top quality parts and some are bargain basement parts guns or used parts rifles. IMO, for the average user, i.e., someone who only shoots their guns a couple times a year and then maybe a only a couple hundred rounds a year, a inexpensive parts gun is probably the way to go. There is no sense in having a $1200-1500 gun sitting in your safe when for the same amount of money you can have a $500-600 gun and a couple cases of ammo. I think the same thing is true for someone who only wants an AR for self defense. Put together a parts gun, buy a decent bolt carrier, make sure everything is tight and lubed and you should be pretty good to go. |
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I'll start this off saying that I am fond of mid length AR's. I plan to get a CMMG flat top mid length upper with flip up sights and eventually will put a red dot on it. I am going with a CMMG upper because I can customize it how I want, and don't have to mess around trying to build it myself (yeah, I know I probably could build it myself, but I don't trust myself enough to do it right for a SHTF rifle  ).I will probably buy a stripped lower and parts kit and assemble it myself. If you are looking to get something standard and straight off the shelf then IMHO an Armalight mid length would be a great choice. I had one, and never had a single problem with it. If you want a carbine lengh gas system, then there are plenty of manufacturers out there to choose from. (Although, I've never owned one.) |
No difference what-so-ever. The only difference is the OAL which may effect how you get in and out of a vehicle with it or how you use it in tight in spaces. FWIW, I plan on using my 20" build as my SHTF rifle, I prefer the balance of it over a carbine |
More likely so I could get an AR that is to spec instead of "lets put oversize pins on today.... no, wait, lets go standard today, large tomorrow." No thanks, colt can keep their junk. When they step up to the plate, start pulling their shelves out of their recievers and start making them to actual spec, I might be interested in one, until then, I will go with LMT or BM. |
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i am a bit against the grain here. for a shtf rifle i'd really prefer an old a1 upper or a2 if i can't find an a1. the a1 sights are simple and bullet proof. nothing to snag or damage. not as adjustable but fine for hunting or fighting. i WANT a carry handle. it have more uses than just looking good. it can be a carry point or tie down point for other applications. detachables tend to get lost. if you want a flat top get a flat top. optics aimpoints and acogs are nice but entirely NOT needed on a fighting gun. they may make you faster on target but they also add weight. Learn to shoot your irons well BEFORE you start adding optics. learn to shoot with irons when the optic dies is not the time to do it. mags buy only good quality milspec mags. pmags are nice but they come with their own sets of tradeoffs. USGI can be had for 12.00 or so NIB and even cheaper used. in my goto mags they stay loaded 24x7. every year they get NEW springs and those springs get rotated to the range mags. i don't remember the last magazine issue i had with an ar15. springs are the #1 issue that cause mag failures<contrary to popular opinion it's not the kind of follower you use..jmho> Stocks collapsibles are nice IF you have mutiple people using the gun or have armor. but don't rule out the a1/a2 fixed stock either. it's solid and offers storage capcity for other things such as cleaning kits and parts. <easier access than digging through your pack to find it.> JMHO but there is a BIG difference in a hsld rifle and a shtf survival gun. if i have to survive i want light weight and as little extra garbage as possible snag and carry. |
Guess I'm with TBS....my SHTF gun is a 20" A2...nothing fancy on it at all. I've often thought about optics to mount onto the carry handle, but the only one I would consider for a SHTF rifle is an ACOG, but I can't afford one. Aimpoint would be nice but it uses batteries...kinda a deal breaker for me. Hell even on my flat tops I've put chopped carry handles onto them, I can't deal with flip up BUIS. |
| I have both a Bushmaster A2 and a RRA carbine with a 16in Wilson free floated match barrel. I use irons on the A2, but I got a ACOG TA31DOC for the carbine. I still love my iron sights, but the ACOG is rapidly growing on me. I have tried an eotech, but I like the ability to better identify a target and get consistent hits out to 600m with the ACOG, as well as having the Docter red dot optic for close range fighting. I also got the tirjicon night sights for my A2. They have been a great benefit for low light shooting. |
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Another vote for a lightweight carbine (or mid-length) from a top tier manufacturer. If you're gonna put optics on it, get a flat-top, a Larue mount for your optic and a Troy BUIS. FWIW, I'm 44, and I haven't had any problems with the iron sights on any of my guns since I bought the Revision SawFly Deluxe Kit and the Rx Carrier with Varilus Physio progressive lenses. The package wasn't cheap, but it rocks! 
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I agree that a 16" M4gery is the best option for a first AR. I'd get an LMT upper the next time they go on sale from Quantico, and an EoTech or Aimpoint instead of the ACOG. Get a Stag or LMT lower. |
cool links thanks. i've been looking for an alternative to just wearing my glasses when i shoot, use the chainsaw, ride the atv and work on the tractor, hadn't had much luck until now. thanks. |
Don't mention it--I was looking for an Rx shooting/safety solution when I did the research. The other nice thing about the SawFlies (if you have a big head like me) is they come in regular and large sizes. Good stuff! |