[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bee keeping? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/27/2008 1:33:41 PM EDT
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Does anyone keep bees for the honey and pollination abilities? I am thinking about starting up an apiary at my grandmother's place to help pollinate the crops and make some food that will never go bad. What say you SF? |
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been doing it for about 8 years. Its a challenge at times. Various mites and diseases have made beekeeping difficult. 7 or 8 years ago you could buy a 3 pound package of bees for $40. These are now something stupid like close to $80. With shipping you are likely looking at $120 for bees.  We (here in US) use Langstroth hives. The frames are removable and honey can be extracted. The frames can then be replaced to be refilled. Langstroth hives can help bees produce larger amounts of surplus honey. There is a disadvantage though: A pair of Langstroth hives (several deep bodies, a few supers, frames, foundation, bottoms, tops, as well as smokers, hive tools, veils) can easily run $500. And another couple hundred for the Extractor. There is a very low cost option. Google "Top Bar Hives". These were developed as a low tech, low cost method of beekeeping for developing countries (Kenay and Tanzania). You can build a top bar hive out of scrap wood. You only really need a few sheets of wax foundation to start (and the bees obviously). The top bars a a tad more difficlut to handle. In addition the hives make less honey (but more wax). You cannot extract honey but rather cut the whole comb off, and 'extract' the honey by crushing and straining. Bees have to rebuild the comb before refilling, meaning lower honey yeilds. The big advantage, however, is VERY low cost. In addition, since the combs are always 'new', there is some evidence to suggest that this system is s little less prone to many bee diseases. You can run $600, 700+ to get a full Langstroth hive system going. Thats a lotta money. On two langstroths and a decent season you can easily pull 60-100 lbs of honey. For $40 you could build a pair of top bar hives, and pull 30 or 40 lbs of honey off. Not nearly as productive. However, its quite possible to run 4, 6, 8, 10 top bar hives for $100 or so, and generate a similar 100 lb honey crop.... You also end up with more hives (better in case one or two die off), greater pollenation, etc. teh expense and frustration involved with beekeeping has really discouraged me from serious hobby beekeeping. I still have a hive. It still makes a decent crop every year. I will not invest additional $$$ in langstroth equipment. I am building more top bar hives though. The pollenation benefits frequently seem to outwiegh the honey benefits. One side note: I have NOT bought bees in about six years. I have had total hive die offs, but have had 'wild' swarms move into my equipment on three occasions. At $120 a package thats $360 in 'free' bees. Set up a hive. Get going. Make splits of you want to. But ALWAYS have an empty hive with some used frames (for scent and to act as "bait") nearby (100 yards away) so you can benefit from swarms. You can also buy a pheromone that attracts swarms. Also: Bee "variety' matters. When I say Rottwieler and Labrador Retriever, you get two very different images of dogs don't you? Same for bees. There are different strains, with different characterisitcs. Some strains are easier to handle than others. Do a little research before ordering bees. I've used Caucasians with great success. They are not perfect but have been gentle. Ond strain (Midnite) was some nice and calm I could open a hive, remoe a frame and have all teh neighborhood kids stick fingers in the combs (with bees) to get honey in a pair of shorts and a tshirt... No veil, no smoker.  |
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Wow, thanks for that information. I will have to try that. My grandmother actually has a bee hive rocking in her bathroom wall right now. Perhaps I could get her to let me build a few to put out back under the auspices of it luring some of those bees away from her house.
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If I tried to argue with frozenny, I couldn't . Google top bar hive, put a small one together, then bait it. Spray a shot of lemon pledge inside - the prevailing opinion is this is close enough to bee pheremone that it attracts scouts who decide whether your hive is the correct dimensions. If they like your handiwork, free bees. Next best plan is to befriend a beekeeper - go to a meeting of beekeepers and let it be known you'd like a NUC. (pronounced "Nuke" as in nuclear.) I produce at a minimum a 5 gallon bucket of honey each year and I don't remove all of it from teh hives. It isn't good for shtf planning since I give it all away.  But I insist on sharing what God gives me so I'll probably never put any back.I have had some luck selling nucs locally. If any arfcomers wanted a hive I'd give them one, but no one has taken me up on it on their annual trip to myrtle beach or hilton head... I think it is a wonderful shtf plan. Great barter material. Who else will have pure sugar in preserved liquid form? Plenty of calories, and medicinal value as well. |
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Frozenny- check out Gardner Apairies in Baxley, GA. Not sure what they will be charging THIS year for a 3lb. but I paid $43.00 with a marked queen last June. Good folks, no problem with the bees. Not sure if they have a webpage or not, if you can't find them IM me and I'll dig up there number. Lowdown3 |
Wow. Interesting stuff on that top bar hive.. might have to give that a try. |
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torqued; If you have any questions, lemme know. Fordguy does bees too and his head is on straight as well... The top bar hives are really low tech. Its a cheap way to get into it. You probably want to look at a smoker and veil too. I never bought a full bee suit. Too $$$ ($100) and I'm a cheap SOB. Tyvek paint suit at the hardware store for $10 works well. A simple helmet and viel to keep em outta yer face and you are good to go. If you work slowly, carefully and avoid jarring or knocking them, they stay pretty calm. If possible try to work them on a nice day after a few decent days in a row. Most of the older (potentially more aggressive) bees are out on flowers and the colony is pretty relaxed. Working them after three straight days of shitty weather can be, ummm, exciting. If you do get stung, kill the bee right then and there. Then scrape (not pluck) the stinger out quickly. If you get teh stinger out fast you do not get most of the venom. Less venom = less discomfort. Killing the bee serves a purpose too. She leaves a pheromone marker on yer hide, then flies back to ring the alarm bell. Lots of pissed off bees come looking for yer sorry hide then. Its simplier and easier to swat and scrape... Bees do NOT like it when you blow on them. Move slowly, and without sudden movement and listen to them. You will hear a nice sedate contented hum. If you piss em off they'll let you know. The pitch will change and move up a few notes... Its time to take a break. |
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I wanted to say a couple of other things since you say you are doing the TBH. Smells. beekeepers enjoy smells no one else will ever experience - bees have a smell, the comb has a smell, baby bees smell like baking bread, sick bees have a smell, healthy bees have a different one.......or, take the smell of nectar for example. raw nectar, fresh nectar, curing nectar, the nectar from different flowers, most humans will never smell nectar. You will. sounds. You can guage the attitude of your bees by listening to the hive first. start by listening at the entrance, then tap lightly to hear them rev up with your ear to the hive. There is a dissonance with a hive preparing to swarm. There is an off key with a hive that lost it's queen. Most people will never hear these things, you will. Pollen comes in so many different colors. From the brigtest yellow to the dingy browns. You will see it all as you watch the bees enter the hive one after the other. One day when you die, your children and their children will talk about the old bee charmer. He "never got stung." (you'll get stung a thousand times!) he could "talk with the bees." (you grumbled under your breath and cursed a little!) He smelled like honey! (you really smell like honey and sweat...not a good thing!) So enjoy life, please post pics when your hive is done and remember there is a beekeeping forum here somewhere... |
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frozenny & FordGuy: Thanks for the info/help. My wife and I are putting in several fruit trees and some raised vegetable beds. Partly for SHTF, partly because we're sick of paying more for crappy produce, and partly for my 2 year old daughter because she loves fruit (and bugs, and worms, and birds, and critters) and we want to teach her about growing. She loves helping with the plants/yard work. I had thought about a hive for the back yard garden/trees, but the Langstroth hives looked to be a bit big and a little more work/$ than I wanted to invest in it. The top bar hives look like they might fit the bill. |
+1 to that. I got a rather nasty burn underneath my forearm, where the softest skin is. (I picked up a hot, HOT Mini-14 after a 4-mag dump and the bbl came into contact with my arm. Ouch.) I had no 1st Aid kit nearby but I did have a jar of honey. I put honey on the burn and about 95% of the pain went away. This was about 1 year ago; I now have a barely-noticable scar from the incident. Honey is a natural disinfectant: it absorbs water so ferociously, it actually bursts the cell walls of any bacteria that it touches! However, it DOES harbor other microbes, such as fungi; it is NOT safe to feed to babies for this reason. |
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Somewhat offtoptic but perhaps of interest: These two are of a 'wild' swarm that took up residence in my father in laws shed. They lived there happily for about 8 years or so. Note the 55 gallon drum. The hive is bigger. Same hive from below during winter, with bees clustered Same colony again, but in summer... I had a swarm and no equipment. 15 minutes, some scrap lumber and a few nails and I had a new field expedient top bar hive... Finally, what two strong colonies can look like on a HOT and humid day.... Hope you enjoyed 'em. Frozenny |
+1 on the mowing question And thanks for the pics frozenny |
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If you look at the pic of the two hive you'll notice that they both face the same direction. 99% of the bees in flight are on the front side of the hive. There is VERY little activity on the two sides or back. Its sort of like a one-sided airport runway: All the takeoffs and landing are at one end of the runway. All my hives will ALWAYS be oriented in the same direction, in one row. You can stasnd behind the hive and avoid 99% of teh bees in flight. Less trouble, less conflict, fewer stings. I once worked a bee yard where the hives were set in rows. A row of 4 or 5 hives, with another row behind that, and another behind that. When you were behind one hive you were in front of another. Lots of stings. I tried mowing that bee yard and got NAILED. Bam. Bam. bambambambambam.... I gave up, left the mower and ran. They were PISSED off. I can remember running across a field in a suit, arms waving. (the only time I've ben driven off). A pick up with two fellas was crossing the field towards me. They see me high tailing it outta there, they hauled that pickup around and made SERIOUS time getting the hell away from those hives..... Moral of the story: Hives in ONE live, all entrances facing ONE direction, and room behind to work em... I mow the back side first (on a riding mower). I then approach the hives from behind, line up, floor the mower and mow the sides from back to front at full throttle. No problems. A few passes later I'll line up the a pass across the front, floor the mower and go... The only pass that bugs em is that last pass across the front. I think I've been zapped maybe three times in 7 years doing this.... Try to avoid the exhaust on the bees. They don't like that...The really easy way to do it is mow the back and sides, and leave the front for last. I'll mow to about six feet from the hive. Wait for dusk and after the sun has set mow that last little patch of grass. They dont fly at night. Bees do NOT like weedwackers. I'l learned that  . But weeds and grass grow up in front of the hive and bugger up the flight of the bees. I have since set two 24"x24" patio stones on the dirt, and placed the hive on top of that, with most of teh stones projecting out in front of teh hive. Weeds don't grow on concrete. Therefore nor weeds immediately infront of teh hive, And you can drive right over the patio stones with teh mower deck in place. |
medicmandan: I'm in a pretty dense residential area and I'm going to give a top bar hive a try. I"m not so much interested in high honey production as I am in having bees help with the pollination of my garden and fruit trees. We should be able to get enough honey out of the hive to keep my family (me, wife, 2 year old daughter) happy. Check out this info: The Barefoot Beekeeper The Back Yard Hive |
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Placement: Bees can do relatively well in an urban setting. I've had my 15 feet from the front of my house for 8 years, and had only ONE 'innocent' sting. I've had a few from mowing (and a bunch doing bee keeping stuff), but really very little problems with bee/neighbor interactions. You need to ensure that the bees do not have conflicts as they come and go from the hive. If you can, picture a cone-shaped flight path that starts at the hive entrance. As you move out from the hive the cone widens. Twenty feet out the cone is about twenty feet wide. This is the "Busy" area, sort of like the ends of an airport runway... You do not want a lot of obstacles or foot traffic here.... Or vehicle traffic for that matter. I would not locate a hive on a property line, nor facing a property line if the line was withing 20 feet. As a matter of courtesy (and not freaking neighbors out) I would NOT locate one anywhere near an area frequented by nieghbors either. On the other side of a play set, patio, etc is not good for public relations. Ideal hive set up (according to Frozenny, who is nothing but a half-assed beekeeper!): Hive facing east (morning sun wakes em up) with good sun exposure for the first couple hours (warms em up and gets em going). Shaded during the heat of the day. No obstacles (sheds, walls, fences, etc) in front of hive for 30 feet or more. Nothing on sides or back for 10 feet. Hive near property line but facing INWARDS. Paint 'em any color you want, but white will help cool the hive. In houston I'd be looking for shade hnearly all day is possible. If you are in a water scarce area a water source helps too (Pond, stream, or even a large bowl or puddle intentionally formed by a slowly dripping tap. In dry areas some keepers have reported irate neighbors because bees were making ferquent and numerous trips to local pools for water. |
no, full sun, NO shade! you (and I) have a pest called the small hive beetle. Part of the beetle's life cycle involves leaving the ground as a larvea and pupating in the ground. They love "the woods" with rich moist humus and shade, they hate red clay in full sun. So your bees will be just fine in the texas heat. Paint them white and give them a screened bottom. |
| OK this has me interested as I have been wanting to get back into beekeeping. Lost my hive about 3 yrs ago to foulbrood so I had to burn everything. What has been keeping me back has been the cost. These look like I can put one together with scrap I have kicking around. Is the barefoot beekeeping book worth it? Saw it on www.biobee.com. I downloaded the plans to make one. Any good ways to attract a swarm? What have your experiences been with these hives? Do they have a queen excluder in them? How do they fair in the winter? Probably find most of my answers if I dig further but these are quite interesting. |
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FYI, found a forum that looks interesting/useful: www.beesource.com/forums/index.php |
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Don't know if I could do this, but I have friends who do. GOD DAMN does mesquite honey taste good! Black as molasses and not bland like the store stuff. The way I see it, I would (and have) trade all kinds of work for a gallon jar of high grade sugar. YMMV Now grow tobacco, and have a distillery and you'll have your bases covered! |
| Would it be a problem to put the hives in a livestock pasture? I've been thinking more and more about getting some bees but this thread has me really interested. I don't currently have a livestock pasture but I may in the future. It wouldn't be heavily used (maybe 5 or 6 steers in a 5 acre lot). Should I just take the precaution of fencing a large enough area around the hives? |
| There are two beekeeping organisations in Indiana. I can't remember their names, but they are only a slight variation. One of them offers a beekeeping school, in which you build your frames, and learn all teh basics. In spring, you all meet up again and get your nucs, and you are off and running. If you are in the state, this is a great way to get into beekeeping. I have a feral hive living in a tree right by my house, so I am hesitant to introduce a hive at my current location. |
Yes you will need to protect the hives or some time or other the steers will decide to scratch themselves on the hive. Nothing good will come of that. Also for what it is worth honeybees don't like the smell of horses. Never ride and then work your bees. 
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barefoot beekeeping - never heard of it..just go to www.beesource.com or www.beemaster.com and start reading. It's the arfcom of beekeeping. attract a swarm: spray lemon pledge inside a cardborad box and hang it 15 feet in a tree in an areat that is known to have bees. If you don't believe there is science behind this, go inquire at www.beesource.com about the lemon pledge. I was a skeptic, now a believer. you don't need a queen excluder: the bees know where to keep honey, and the queen knows how much a brood chamber she needs. they will leave comb honey for you and if they don't ,mn then they knew better than you. In winter no doubt these low-slung TBH hives fare better since they are out of the wind and have a larger practical mass since their layers aren't seperated like traditional boxes are. OK folks, I plan to sell around 40 NUCs this spring for 80 bucks each if anyone is interested. |
put your hives on hard red clay land in full sun - these conditions make it difficult for the small hive beetle to overcome a hive. some folks wantto place their hives in the woods for some reason, ideal condition for the beetle, and then wonder why their hives died. |
no, the cows will learn pretty quick but at the expense of knocking your hives over. So fence won't hurt. |
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Good stuff. I attempted to take all the info from this thread and put it in a post on the survivalist wiki. I hope you guys don't mind. I would appreciate it if you could check my work and see if I've made any glaring omissions or mistakes. I know you guys have gone over this subject before, so if you put your knowledge in one place, you could always point them back to the survivalist wiki page :) ETA: What's a "super"? I've seen this term used here and there, but with out explanation. |
| Ok, now I have another question. If I were to place a hive near home the best place that I can figure would be near our woods. On the east side of the woods is a grass field about 50 yards wide and 150 yards long. On the east side of that is a creek. My thoughts are that the woods would make great shade on hot days, and a great windblock for the cold winter winds. The grass field would give a nice coming/going area for the bees, they're also located near water and the the woods is totally surrounded by farmland (plenty of soybeans and wheat for food). My only concern is that sometimes we use this field as a shooting range (we have a backstop at one end). I would say at most it gets used once per month. Would shooting occasionally pose a problem with the bees, would this irritate them? |
| From what I've seen and heard, there is nothing wrong with the Africanized Honeybees. They're just more aggressive so more caution is necessary when handling them. Its just that people don't like change, they've been working with docile European Bees for years and they don't want a more aggressive strain, but the fact is, they can't be stopped, so beekeepers just have to get used to it. I don't think honey production is much different between the two, they're both good producers, you just have to change your handling methods. Take this with a grain of salt, all I know if from what I've read and been told, I'm not a beekeeper (yet) so I don't know how much of this is true and how much is rumor. |
generally here honey is taken on june 21, not the fall. |
Thanks for the tip. As I have read a good portion of the book, How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey I realize that now. It is a pretty good book for $6. |
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I have a Top Bar Hive built, but it is currently empty. Does anyone have any hints on getting a wild colony of bees to take up residence? I sprayed some Pledge inside it, based on a tip, but got no results. I know I could buy a colony, but right now, I have like $10 invested in the project. I don't want to pay $100 just for the bees. |
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Contact a bee supply place like Dadant, Mann Lake, or somewhere similar. Check the catalog and look for Queen Mandibular Pheromone. It is a pheromone (scent) that the queen gives off, and it is attractive and pleasing to the other bees in the hive. Its about $7.oo for two little vials. Place a vial in the hive. I have no idea why you'd use Pledge, and do not know if you've frikked the hive up using it. If you want decetn bees, learn one thing really fast: Do NOT place any kind of chemical crap in the hive. Don't spray it. For that matter, don't paint or stain the inside. Bees and chemicals d not mix. Place your hive 6 -12 feet above ground. If you know of an existing bee yard, locate the new hive 200-250 yards from the existing one. Get the hive in place NOW. Swarming season is rapidly approaching. I've had good luck with swarms moving into old hives that were empty. These had previously held colonies, so they smelled live hives, had empty comb, etc. Your existing top bar hive is just a box that smells like pledge. It's not particularly attractive as an empty box. |
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Can you give any advice on moving a colony out of a downed tree into a top bar hive? I had a massive poplar fall across my creek crossing and I'm in the process of cutting and dragging a section so that I can open it back up. Fifteen feet up-tree from my nearest cut is a decent hive. When the tree fell, the top shattered such that a few pieces of comb were broken up and ejected. I assume the rest of the hive is intact there in a hollow in the top of the tree. There are definitely still bees coming and going. If I leave them where they lie the next big storm will swell the creek and flood the hive. If I end up able to move the bees I'll take pics of the process and post them. |
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I just found what seems to be a good video by the PAW Productions people on bee keeping. I think they're the same guy's who did all those food storage vidoes a while back. Here it is. The first video in a 4 part series. youtube.com/watch?v=PxJv6zuf-DE |
Thanks for the link. Here are all of his YouTube videos in one place, and a list of his favorites (which are also pretty useful.) |
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Froze and Fordguy, I am a FNG to the bee world, well sort of, got 3 nucs through the winter. One question I have is if I set up a bee trap/hive and hope to catch a feral swarm, will the trap induce my current hives to swarm? I have some queen pheromone and some wooden nucs so a trap would not be a problem. |