Posted: 9/28/2007 10:27:35 AM EDT
|
I posted this in the DIYS forum but would like to get some input from a survival point of view. I am preparing to build a house for me and my wife on a lot that we own in town. It will be a 3 bed 3 bath house. Two story with the bedrooms upstairs. It will have to be an all electric house because I can't get gas to it. I plan to put a pellet stove in the living room for backup heat with a battery backup to run it. I will have a diesel generator for backup power to the house. The house will have a two car attached garage and a separate oversized 1 car garage (18x33)to use as a workshop. I am planning on building the house with 2x6 construction for extra energy efficiency. My main HVAC system is probably going to be a heat pump system...probably a Ruud/Rheen since that what most of the contractors install around here. I am going to look into Trane units too though. I plan to have the structure and the exterior finish done by Amish builders and then I will finish the interior. Here is a link to the house plan that I am planning on going with: www.houseplans.com/plan_details.asp?id=2305&tab=Summary&OrderID= This is not going to be my ultimate dream house because, while I have a fair amount of money for a down payment, I do NOT want to be in over my head in debt. As a result, I can't/won't spend a fortune for a massive survival retreat. Me and the wife plan to live in this house for about 5 years or so. My lot is 111 feet wide and 147 feet deep so there is a limit to the size of a house and outbuildings that I can build. It's a larger lot than normal in this town (normal is about 75x120) but it's still not huge. I have to build a min of 25 feet back from the road and 10 feet from the property lines and so that also limits the size of the buildings that I can install. The above requirements are in place by city code. I talked to the Amish builder yesterday and he's going to put together an estimate for me. I've talked to people around town and they have all said what a great guy he is and how he's a fantastic builder. I asked him about the cost difference between 2x6 and 2x4 and he said that it shouldn't add more than about $2-3k to the overall cost of the house. That means the payback will be pretty quick...especially since I'll have to heat with electric. I can't go with propane because the city prohibits it and the natural gas would be extremely expensive to get to my property. Any suggestions or comments expecially from a survivalist mentality?? Keep in mind, this won't be the ultimate dream house but it will be a lot better house than many people have and definately better than my current house! |
Electric heat??  Ish... I'd seriously see how much it'd cost to get gas in there. Electric water heater, furnace, dryer, and stoves are teh suck! Where do you live? Will you have a basement? If so, poured foundation walls instead of block. Make sure they water proof the living piss out of them before they back fill. Make sure the grade is WELL below the top of the foundation. Cement board siding. Steel roof. Never mind if youre moving in 5 yrs. Since youre gonna heat it about the worst way possible make sure that sucker is tight as a drum. Sprayed foam insulation to make it nice and tight. Just make sure you've got all your wiring squared away first!  Run some empty PCV in the walls incase you need to run some wiring in the future. VINYL windows. Wood looks nice, you'll regret it later when it's black and mildew ridden. There's a start anyways |
|
It willt kae you 10 years to pay the difference between 2x4 and 2x6 walls. If you want energy efficiency, spend the money and get the best windows you can find. Windows are 80% of winter heat loss. Rheem/Ruud are OK if you are gonna be there 5 to 10 years. Trane is way overpriced and you are only paying for the name. I'd reconsider having Amishmen build it, INE they do damn good work for each other and shitwork for the rest of us. If you know enough about construction to inspect their work, then go ahead. Otherwise, find someone else. ETA: You could easily install oil heat, IM me for some ideas. Ops (25 years in construction, 20 year Master HVAC and ductwork) |
I'd rather have the extra comfort of the thicker walls and the sturdier house. I intend to get good vinyl windows with the Low E coating. The Amish build a lot around here and you can always pick out their houses. They are better built than 90% of the other contractors around here. Don't know anything about where you are from but around here they build extremely well. NO ONE around here has oil heat. Don't think anyone even knows how to install it. I haven't checked to see if the city would allow oil heat but since no one has it, they've probably never been asked. We have very low electric rates around here compared to much of the country. Most of our power here is hydro electric. Very cost effective. Electric is comparable to gas around here in price...a little higher but not much. What's you opinion on the high end Carrier units? One of the local HVAC companies installs Carrier. They are more expensive than others though. |
|
My parent's place had a wood stove in the center of the basement and a 14"x24" floor grate. Basement was always toasty all winter and there was a noticable difference in heating costs. It's a sweat equity return as you need to aquire and split the wood. Once I moved out it became less attractive and they switched from oil to gas when the furnace broke. Stove is still in place and I have brought in wood for them twice during ice related power outages. Now IF they would just stock up on water and soup... Pete |
My 79 year old Dad recently called to see if I wanted to come over and spread top soil with him...being the only son on this coast has it's ups and downs. My mother put the "drunk cot" next to the stove area, it was the only place she would let our friends sleep it off...with a room temp of 94+ you were completely detoxed by the time you woke up. Pete |
|
Might want to look into (iirc) SFIP (Structural Foam Insulating Panels). OSB on both sides with a white styrofoam middle in different thicknesses usually 4" or 6". I forgot what the R-value is for each. Supposedly they are 3-5 times stronger than a stick built house and at the time you would recoup your energy savings within 3 years. At that time it only added $1/sq. ft. to the cost of your home. One fellow told me a couple weeks ago, it was cheaper to build with them now due to cost of lumber. They come in 4x8 panels or up to 28 ft. long. I was told to plan your house in 4 ft. increments so you could use full panels without added cutting. Also this company could put your house plans into their computer and a machine would cut your house out and it would be stacked on the truck in assembly order saving build time. iirc they were being produced by Mohawk Industries. They were doing the roof with them also at first, but someone re-thought it and now you basically build your house like an upside down shoe box; then build your roof on top of it. This gives you a floored attic. |
|
My parents just built with SIPS panels, I built with ICF. It is still a hefty premium (minimum 5%) to build with either. The sales guys always sell the less labor factor, but it still costs more. Definitly look into it, but be wary when they say it costs less - If it did, then that's how spec homes would be built. Geothermal would save you a lot in heating costs, but the upfront costs will be hefty. With a very efficient envelope and propane as an option, my ROI pushed out past the expected life of the geothermal equipment, so I opted against it. My parents put geo in (along with 10-12 kw of solar to drive it and everything else in the house) but money wasn't a concern in their project. |
|
I like your house plan a lot. Its plenty spacious enough, user friendly, and without a bunch of non-used space. If there is one thing I have learned the hard way, its grandiose homes look awfully nice till you have to write the utility checks. All electric homes are very common here in TN. They're actually very cost effective here far more so than gas or fuel heated homes due to our low electric utility rate. We mainly use heat pumps which do a fair job down to around 15 degrees. The auxiliary strip heat built into the units are extremely expensive to use. Most of us, like you have planned, have auxiliary heating methods. For winters here, it really isn't that many hours that we see below 15 degrees and a one week alternate fuel supply usually meets or exceeds single events. Since heat pumps do double duty heating and air conditioning, life of the unit becomes a major factor in planning. I'm not easy on my unit. Other than changing stat for season by 10 degrees that's about it. I've had a life out of my Janitrols (on the second one) of about 12 years. Next go around, I will be going either Carrier or Rheem. I figure if I can squeeze just a couple more years out of that life, its worth it if just to avoid the hassle. As for a recommendation, by the floor plan it looks like the major potential for fire will be the kitchen and garage both with a high potential of not only blocking the stairs but making the hallway upstairs impassible. The porch on the front makes it pretty easy to get down but would have some contingency for it and a rope ladder for the master bedroom. That same height that is a concern in a fire is a strength in security issues providing some isolation and defensible position from home invasion. Meeting dad at the top of the stairs with a shotgun is about every burglars nightmare. The downside is the opposite in what I think of as the bump in the night. We don't call 911 for every bump in the night but often does have us clearing out the lower floor. This puts the stairs to your disadvantage. Typically found in homes two way stair switches help but I also like being able to light the entire house up including outside from the floor I sleep. Rather a burglar run than me have to confront them. Though alarms can be used this way, its not really a good idea to set them off for every bump in the night. Having lived in high crime areas, I'm not a big fan of privacy fences. I love the privacy, however the same privacy it provides you, it also provides any potential burglar. They limit your vision of anyone approaching your yard as well as neighbors seeing something suspicious once they enter the yard. Depending on location, sometimes there is no getting around them since there are no other options or your neighbors already have them. I've seen some pretty creative approaches to alternatives. Most of these whether its fence type of the use foliage have one thing in common which is limited vision or slots. This for all practical purposes gives you privacy unless someone is right up against the fence, allows you to see the shape of someone close to the fence, and gives an impression to those outside they may be seen inside making the tradition privacy fence a better choice of who to rob. Like Monty Python, I'm a big fan of shrubbery. Besides quite decorative, it can be used to limit access to porches and lower windows. It may not stop someone but discourage at the least and sometimes an "Oh darn" is just enough noise to wake you up. In just a comment on 2X6 vs 2X4, unless structural integrity is a major concern, the real goal you are after is insulation property. This is as much influenced by how you insulate and what insulation material you chose as depth. There's more than one way to skin the insulation cat. Tj |
Thanks a lot TJ. Some good comments that I will definately take into consideration while building. Speaking of fire!.....I was looking at the upstairs window ladders at HD recently. I think I'll buy one for at least the bonus room and the master bedroom. We are in the same boat for electric rates here in MO. I've priced the difference between a heat pump and gas and the difference is minimal....if gas is high, electric is actually slightly cheaper. I certainly like gas heat but can't get it to my property at a reasonable price. I am going to check to see if I can get special approval to get propane but think I'll be SOL on that. I grew up with a heat pump and wasn't crazy about it because it didn't blow warm air. However, the house was always livable so that's all that really matters. We will have the pellet stove to use during very low temps and as a supplement to the electric heat. Of course I'd love to have a huge house but I do NOT want to pay the utility bills for that! This house will be suffiently big for me, my wife, and her daughter....who only lives with us part time. We will also be able to take in our niece if her mother goes off the deep end. We will also be able to support my wife's family in the event of a prolonged power outage like we had last winter. We like the plan because we wanted a large family living area. We like having people over and wanted a fairly large downstairs to allow friends and family to gather. We also plan to have a large back patio with an additional outdoor living area out back. Real good idea on the lights for the staircase. I'll be incorporating that into the wiring plan. Definately like that idea!! I asked the builder what the price difference between 2x4 vs 2x6 and he told me that there won't be a lot of difference. Maybe $2-3k. I bought the lot quite cheap with the thought that I'd have to pay to have water run to the property. Well, the water company ran the water at their cost so I now have about an additional $6-9k to spend in upgrades. I'd rather upgrade the quality of construction instead of the size. I'm looking into the American Craftsman series 3000 windows. They are double hung, 7/8 inch, Lo E coated. They are a considerable upgrade in efficiency compared to the cheap windows that most builders install. The suprising thing to me is that they aren't much more expensive....about $200 for an average size window vs about $130 for a cheaper window. Still unsure of the specific brand of heating system. Probably going to be looking at a Rheem. However, I'm going to be getting a price quote on a high efficiency Carrier to see what the difference will be. Thanks!!!!! |
|
I just didn't touch on windows. The other guys already had but I do totally agree. In the last two years in a great part to utility cost increases, my family has upgraded windows in two homes. In one, a much older home, it reduced utility costs 50% and will have a two year pay back. (Whoops that's a tad misleading. We also converted from gas to a heat pump with gas backup. That's also in that payback period.) My only comment on the 2X4 vs 2X6 is to look at insulation and what is available within your budget. There are some fantastic ways to get the R factor up these days. If you can do both fine. As for structural integrity, typically it is the roof that goes first in high wind and from that the other problems occur. Great story on this recently concerning the new house wind tunnel in FL. We just went through this with my brothers cabin. We took the high road on the insulation and sometimes I think a candle would keep that place warm.  Its about double what is called out for as the minimum for his area. We actually sized the through wall heat pump for standard insulation (how they rate them) and its way over kill now barely running. We did a bunch of other stuff too due to tornadoes like thicker roof ply wood, screws not nails, inside walls wood paneling screwed not nailed etc. Tj |
That is a nice looking well laid out home you have there CR. I will throw in my worthless opinion for you to think about. First, I would would find someone in your area who sprays foam insulation. I would NEVER use fiber glass at all. It is old out dated technology, and there is MUCH better choices out there. Next, I would ask him for a bid to spray one inch on the ground before your basement floor is poured. Then pour the floor on the foam. Make sure the foam comes out past your basement wall. Then have him spray foam, one inch thick, from the foam that is under the floor, and up the basement wall. Your basement is now insulated and sealed from leaks. I myself would have him spray it just a little thicker at the floor level and tapper it to an inch as he goes up. After the house is built, spray two inches of foam in the outside walls. This will literally glue your home together as it insulates. Texas A&M did a study on foam insulation and said that one inch of foam increases the strength of the home by 20%. They also sprayed over a million board feet to study insulation values. They said the added cost of foam is generally paid back to the owner within 5-7 years in energy savings. I would then have two more inches sprayed over the ceiling of the top floor. Do not spray foam on the inside of the roof as your roof will not be able to transfer the heat into the attic. In short, your shingles will melt off your roof. The cost to spray all this may scare you at first, but believe me, you will be much happier in the long run. Besides, you are cutting out alot of other things like fiberglass insulation, Tyvek, and those foam insulated forms which are not water proof at all. You can also down size your heating and AC to save money there. The cost to heat and cool your home will be cut by 50% if you have good doors and windows, so when you add it all up, it is well worth it. In EVERY home I have sprayed foam in, NOT ONE OWNER ever came back and said they made the wrong choice in spending money on foam. NOT ONE, and all of them said they would never use anything but foam to insulate if they ever build another home. If you do use foam, use 2 pound foam everywhere. It gives you the best strength and coverage combo. Heavier foam does not give you better insulation, just more strength, but also cuts down on coverage so you need more foam, and it costs more. Make sure you see documents as to the foams rating. I say this because you will not know what the rating is by looking at it. He can spray 1.5 pound foam and charge you for 2 pound foam. Your insulation value will not really be affected, but your strength will. He does this crap to get more coverage and increase his profits. I am not saying he will do this, but I have seen pretty low life crap from people to make a buck. One inch of foam is so strong you can jump on it and it won't break. You can walk all over it and never worry about it cracking like foam sheets do. Heck, when the space shuttle lost foam and it hit the vehicle, it was so strong and tough, that it damaged the shuttle enough so that it destroyed itself on reentry. |
Thanks for the input 1_Big_Bunker. I am definately interested in foam. I contacted a fairly local foam installer and asked for an estimate....still haven't heard from him. Guess I'll have to find someone else. Do you have any idea what the cost difference is between foam and fiberglass? Lets say that to insulate with fiberglass the price is $2000. How much more would foam be? I realize that it is going to depend on the part of the country but I'm looking for a ballpark estimate. You said 2 inches of foam. What would you do with the other approximately 3 1/2 inches of air space in the wall...assuming that it was 2x6 construction? Fill it with fiberglass? Leave it empty? From looking at the information that I have gotten from foam installers, it looks like they fill the wall cavity with foam and then if the walls are 2x4, they have to trim off the excess foam. 2x6 walls are nearly filled with the foam. What am I missing here?? I'm definately interested in the foam in the ceiling of the upstairs. Most two story houses I've been in are hot upstairs in the summer due to inadequate insulation in the upstairs. I intend to insulate the crap out of the second floor. The house won't have a basement. It's going to be built on a crawlspace. I'd love to have a basement but can't due to the topography of my location. I could but I'd be afraid that it would leak unless very strong precautions were taken to prevent that. Where I live, basements aren't common and as a result, most builders don't know how to properly build them to prevent leakage. Before deciding to build, we looked at several houses in the area with basements. Most of them had some moisture problems. |
I can only make a guess at the cost, but it should be close. I would say that you are looking at about $1.75 a square foot to have it sprayed two inches thick. If you want to cut that cost and give up strength, you can drop that to maybe a $1.50 by using 1.5 pound foam or even 1.25 pound foam. It also depends on how much work they have, and the volume of foam they are buying. When I bought foam, I bought it by the semi load, but we also used that much all the time. I was able to spray foam much cheaper than everyone else. My cost on the foam alone two inches thick, 2 pound density was about $0.80. I could spray it at $1 per SF just to help people out as I didn't care about making money off of them. I was looking at your plans again, and trying to get a figure. Without the actual prints, I am making my best guess here. I would say that the total cost for your home would not be over $5K. This was just taking the width of the family room, 20 feet times two, plus the depth of the house which I am guessing is 27 feet times two. I get 94. Now times the height which is 20 feet as you are not doing your peaks. I get 1880. times let's say $2 and that comes out to $3760. Now add in for the ceiling which is 20x27 times $2 and that comes out to another $1080. Now if you do your floor, I would only use an inch, so figure another $500 or so. All together, I say MAX MAX it should be $5340, and this is NOT taking out for doors and windows. So figure in doors and windows square footage, and subtract that from this total. I also increased the cost to $2 from $1.75 just to add in more lovein for the foamer. In any case it is money VERY well spent. I would not go over 2 inches as foam is about 90% efficient at 2 inches. The rest of the space is just left open. It doesn't matter. I would not add in fiberglass insulation either. If for some reason your home got wet from a storm or whatever, fiberglass will make a real mess. The foam is closed cell so water means nothing to it. Some people spray an inch of foam and then add in fiberglass. OKAY. I fail to see why they do this other than to try to save some money. All it does is cost you more to heat and cool so where are the savings? I also would not spend the extra money on 2x6's unless money isn't the issue. I am guessing that isn't the case. Yes, it will be stronger, but I would spend the money on foam and gain strength and insulation. You see, most people look at insulation like alot of people look at freeze dried food sitting on a shelf in the basement. They can't see it and it does not have a "COOL FACTOR" to it like ANOTHER AR15 and MORE MOLLE gear. A rifle and gear can be played with, but that can of food just sits and does not give you that warm fussy feeling inside. So they look cool as hell while they starve to death. Same with insulation. People will cut corners on insulation because they can not see it like they can with a custom built entertainment center, and huge whirlpool bath tub with built in stereo. The problem is they have to work overtime or get another job to pay for these "THINGS" as well as much higher heating, and cooling bills, so they are not there to enjoy these things anyway. If you save the money each month on heating and cooling, you can have these other "THINGS" in time, but we are a society of we want to look cool, and we want it now at any price be it starving to death or working to death. Like I said, you have a nice home, and you seem to be on the right track in your line of thinking, at least to me, but what the hell do I know. |
|
I really like the floor plna on that. When I built our house, I did it with BUDGET in mind first (I am by no means rich, and in fact did all the work except concrete myself on my off-days; took about 3+ yrs). My biggest regret is NOT putting a basement under it. I went with 4 ft. walls (below frost) and a slab on top to save $$$. But boy do I miss the storage and potential "safe room" capacity! If it's just not possible in your locale due to terrain, then I personally would consider another location after not building one myself. I hate the worry when the weather radio goes off! As others have said, get high quality windows and insulate well. I heat exclusively with wood and it really makes all the difference. Good luck! |