Originally Posted By BayEagle:

IMHO, the biggest gap in our discussions here (and most surv forums I've seen) is a good discussion on practical (sub)urban survival.  Given that the majority of the population lives near urban seacoasts, it should be a very important topic.  Most of the gear, BOBs, kits, etc.  posted on here are basically solo camping stuff, not truly "get home" gear.  

quote]


Yes, I'd like to turn this into a urban survival thread as I get time. It is hard to think about survival without thinking about the woods. I fall into the trap a lot also, and end up with more camping gear than I need.

Most people have camped, they have not overnighted in an old building in the middle of the city. Survival books all deal with the wilderness, as it is assumed that if you are around people you are "rescued". We don't have a mental reference point for urban survival.

Once you start think about traveling 3000 miles, the whole wilderness thing start to seem less and less cool. I want to cross 3000 miles in an emergency setting in a week to ten days. I am prepared for longer, but hope to do it in less time than that.

It is doubtful I will be solo, as I will find some sort of team quickly. Most people in these threads think everyone else is a liability and going to the woods is the only way to get clear of all of them.

Other people can pull security shifts, build rapport with people I can't, know things I don't. Other people can be a safe garage to sleep in, maybe a hot meal, knowledge of local roads, rapport with local LE, knowledge of the next person 20 miles away that can give you a place to sleep.

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_: Originally Posted By BayEagle: IMHO, the biggest gap in our discussions here (and most surv forums I've seen) is a good discussion on practical (sub)urban survival.  Given that the majority of the population lives near urban seacoasts, it should be a very important topic.  Most of the gear, BOBs, kits, etc.  posted on here are basically solo camping stuff, not truly "get home" gear.   quote] Yes, I'd like to turn this into a urban survival thread as I get time. It is hard to think about survival without thinking about the woods. I fall into the trap a lot also, and end up with more camping gear than I need. Most people have camped, they have not overnighted in an old building in the middle of the city. Survival books all deal with the wilderness, as it is assumed that if you are around people you are "rescued". We don't have a mental reference point for urban survival. Once you start think about traveling 3000 miles, the whole wilderness thing start to seem less and less cool. I want to cross 3000 miles in an emergency setting in a week to ten days. I am prepared for longer, but hope to do it in less time than that. It is doubtful I will be solo, as I will find some sort of team quickly. Most people in these threads think everyone else is a liability and going to the woods is the only way to get clear of all of them. Other people can pull security shifts, build rapport with people I can't, know things I don't. Other people can be a safe garage to sleep in, maybe a hot meal, knowledge of local roads, rapport with local LE, knowledge of the next person 20 miles away that can give you a place to sleep.

Shit I wish we knew each other, you could be related :)


To repeat for effect!
Other people can pull security shifts, build rapport with people I can't, know things I don't. Other people can be a safe garage to sleep in, maybe a hot meal, knowledge of local roads, rapport with local LE, knowledge of the next person 20 miles away that can give you a place to sleep

Originally Posted By batmanacw: I have a couple of tight fitting white Underarmor T's. I could get a sun burn right through them though. I even got some light weight underware that has not cotton in them. I will have poly pros on over them. I knew about sleeping on a fire pit, but I hadn't thought about digging in to feel the coolness of the earth.

I wear underarmor loose gear in the summer, I wear long sleeve almost always. There are a couple brands of decent looking travel shirts that have good SPF rating, have lots of mesh, etc, as cool as can be in the heat. (REI has a lot of these, cheaper other places) I have a bunch of Ex Officio clothes for my hot weather travel clothes, and I have soft shell pants for my cold weather travel clothes. White will reflect a lot of sun into your face.

Your right a boonie hat is much better in the sun, I just don’t normally wear one unless I knew I’m going to be in the sun all day. If I didn’t have one I would use a tan cravat to shade my neck.

My clothes are in brown and greens unless I'm overseas and don't want anyone to think I'm MIL and then I wear a blue collared shirt and even some little wire framed glasses w safety glass (I call that my missionary look) but I have my green and brown clothes in my pack


After going to Liberia and NOLA I am much more worried about mosquitoes. Now I DEET all my summer travel clothes.

Survival concepts

Much of this has been listed before, but I find that to create a mental model of what you are trying to achieve helps greatly in the long run. You can’t accomplish your mission without knowing what it is.

Survival
1) Air
2) Shelter
3) Water
4) Food

Another concept from B52

Survival load – 1st Line

stuff on your body

Fighting load – 2nd Line

Stuff you would only dump if you had to swim, you usually never take this off even when you sleep. i.e webgear.

Mission load – 3rd Line

First gear to ditch if you have to move quickly. Not attached to your body i.e. a backpack

First Line
1) Personal defense
2) Signal
3) Navigation
4) Survival

Now, I’m not on a combat mission in Vietnam, so things start to change, but the concepts are still useful in planning.

I have the things on my body (1st line) , my vest or jacket is kind of my webgear, but it doesn’t hold “fighting gear” as the highest level of fighting gear I have is my personal defense weapons from my 1st Line. So my vest become my way of carrying some of what would normally be “1st Line” signal, navigation, etc.

On my body I have a compass/altimeter watch, a phone w internet, two knives, a handgun w/ a reload, ID, money, CC’s, etc. So I have at least one item for signal (phone) and from Navigation (watch) and my PDWs of knives and handgun.

In my jacket/vest I have a multi-tool, waterproof notebook and pen, small pick kit, small snivel kit, storm lighter, cloth zip-ties, aviator flashlight, LED light on zipper, spork, glow-in-the-dark compass

Someone asked in another thread “why do you carry a certain thing?” in addition to what you carry, what are your reasons for picking a certain thing.

Here’s one: I carry the petzl e-lite as a headlamp. I was going to try to do a AA headlamp as I was originally trying to achieve some sort of AA consistency. I gave up on that and in the end don’t really need AAs at all.

I carry the e-lite because it is light, clips on a hat brim and around your head, and has a red LED and two levels of white (the flashing has no value for me that I can see)

I want my gear to fit into all of my life. I wear hats a lot, and sometimes helmets. The e-lite works with both. It has red which allows me to work maps, radios, and my notebook without putting off too much signature.

It weighs 2.1 oz with case and two sets of extra batteries.

The batteries it uses will probably not be the first ones gone after Walgreens in looted. I also use a headlamp (or any artificial light) very little and the batteries should last a long time.

Others will have different needs and will choose something different. If I was in very cold weather or need a real headlamp that has the power for glacier climbing obviously I would choose a different headlamp.

This is why I choose this item, not why YOU should choose the same item.

Here is another “WHY?”

I carry the pack I do because it is medium weight, comfortable, the straps and back are mesh and it breaths well, it is tough, the molle straps allow me to change it from carry-on to full on GHB in a few minutes.

I also like the belt especially the space between the belt and the pouches. Here is how I have configured them to hold my pistols should I choose. As once the pack is on belt holsters are hard to get to. The disadvantage it the guns are hooked to the pack. The good thing is at 35# with food and water I should not have to take it off. I will leave my belt holsters on so any time the pack comes off the pistols switch to my belt. The belt system was the major reason I picked this pack. I use Kramer leather for my main carry and a simple Glock plastic holster crossdraw for the suppressed 22lr

I am considering a Kifaru with a removable belt as this would solve a lot of issues. With the top cover added as a buttback and suspenders it is basically web gear. I will probably get a Zulu Extreme.

The holsters are just single mag pouches. I have both an open top one and a covered one and have not decided which I like better. Obviously the open top one is as fast as a holster, the top cover one is pretty low-pro. I can carry mags and suppressors in the other pouches.

I have other pouches that go n the belt if an event starts that carry my other mags, flashlight and GPS and radio where I can get to them.

I can keep the standard G19 on my strong side and the AA 22lr on the other. Once I decide which pouch to go with for sure I will burn a hole in the bottom of the one for the AA so it can holster with the suppressor.

So basically my biggest “WHY?” was I wanted to try to answer the age old question of how to wear a pack and have handguns accessible.

i like that setup.  now i have another item to save for, haha

Since this is a gun forum here’s a mandatory shot of my AA kit and suppressor and my NODs

ttt

BTW I’m not saying food is unimportant, just not as important in the first week as a lot of other things may be.

Once again there is a reason it is lowest on the list of survival priorities. It will be more important for kids and elderly, but able bodied adults should go the first week with limited food no problem, and a lot longer if they can decide to.

I’ve lived off of less than a meal a day many times for 5-7 days at a stretch while doing very hard work. I did 9 days with basically no food in the TX desert and only passed out and fell down twice from standing up too fast! Not fun, but very possible. Did 58 days at <1000 cal a day while working hard 20+ hours per day on average. Lost about 40#, don’t want to ever repeat it, but again it is possible.

When it comes down to a trade off, I’d rather have the clothing and shelter that keeps my body only burning 2000 cal a day instead of 5000.

IMO “bugging out” or “getting home” is more like E&E than it is like long term survival. In long term survival food needs to become part of the plan as soon as air, water, and shelter are figure out.

I plan on getting hooked up with the NG as soon as possible, and if not them then Ham radio operators, and I also have an extensive network of people that have served in the same units as I have. I would suggest that anyone that is part of any “brotherhoods” use them to their full advantage. I would suggest low-pro signaling with hats, patches, etc.

If you are not part of something like that then all the Ham radio certs, red cross, FEMA disaster certs, anything you can get. You need a reason someone will give you a hand over someone else and something that separates you from the masses. Preferably lots of stuff that sets you apart. I’m not talking about things that set you apart from the crowd, to the crowd, but things that people that know notice and no one else really does. A guy will help a frat brother he has never met before he will help an unknown.

I have no plan of being some ”lone operator” crossing the country by myself. Even in the worst situation, if I did have to walk home I’d team up with people headed my way (and probably find a dog or two)

I also have lots of friends all over the country that if I could contact them would drive 1000 miles to get me, or that would know someone closer that would help sight unseen. That’s why I have the Ham, the cell and the internet.

If this was a classic GHB for normal commuting and such I would have 3 days of food, since it is not I can’t use any more space and weight than I have already. Also as I stated earlier I do usually have 1-2 days of food at any one time in the bag in snacks.

As someone stated, many BOB and GHB look more like solo camping kits. One problem we have is we tend to solo camp to test our gear. Because practicing a true “get home” or “bug out” is no fun. That’s because a get home or bug out is all suffering i.e. movement and more movement, with little time for things like eating. I have somewhere to get to, and a purpose to get there quick. It’s not a hike or a camping trip IMO. Go light, move quicker and for longer.

I also use this bag for backpacking and climbing and such therefore I get things mixed up. It’s easy to let things cross over and your bag gets heavier and heavier.

It is also hard to practice using a network of people to move across an area, so we think about foot movement. I have no plan on moving by foot if at all possible. I am ready for it, but will try almost anything else to not have to do it.

Delete

Perhaps it would help to set some parameters for the application of the GHB.  I know that there are an infinite number of possibilities and scenarios that would cause us to grab and go, but I think the GHB is applicable in a fairly narrow application.   I work my bag development in the vein of a national critical incident while I am away from home that suspends air travel.  Because if it is a full on lock down I’ll have to shelter in place, and I’ll need the contents of my bag to do that effectively, or I will be getting on the road.  This makes the GHB different from my truck bag or BOB.
So if I’m in Florida when the balloon goes up and need to get back to NY ASAP I don’t think I want to find the AT trail head and start walking.  That leaves the interstates and older state routes.  I will have to procure transportation (beg, borrow or steal a car) Then I am going to be traveling through both major cities and small towns.
If I don’t have to get home right now and it is unreasonable to hole up where I am then I can either head for the hills or phone a friend.
If these are my anticipated circumstances my equipment needs to support this.  I will need to Move, hydrate, shelter, communicate and sustain.

Sporks are great and work very well.

The only item that stands out your missing is a LED head lamp and small LED flash light.  Lasts along time and allows you hands to be free to setup camp, do dishes and work on the car.

Good job overall!

Originally Posted By Srigs: Sporks are great and work very well. The only item that stands out your missing is a LED head lamp and small LED flash light.  Lasts along time and allows you hands to be free to setup camp, do dishes and work on the car. Good job overall!

there is a LED headlamp and multiple small LED lights

Originally Posted By Tommygun45: Perhaps it would help to set some parameters for the application of the GHB.  I know that there are an infinite number of possibilities and scenarios that would cause us to grab and go, but I think the GHB is applicable in a fairly narrow application.   I work my bag development in the vein of a national critical incident while I am away from home that suspends air travel.  Because if it is a full on lock down I’ll have to shelter in place, and I’ll need the contents of my bag to do that effectively, or I will be getting on the road.  This makes the GHB different from my truck bag or BOB. So if I’m in Florida when the balloon goes up and need to get back to NY ASAP I don’t think I want to find the AT trail head and start walking.  That leaves the interstates and older state routes.  I will have to procure transportation (beg, borrow or steal a car) Then I am going to be traveling through both major cities and small towns. If I don’t have to get home right now and it is unreasonable to hole up where I am then I can either head for the hills or phone a friend. If these are my anticipated circumstances my equipment needs to support this.  I will need to Move, hydrate, shelter, communicate and sustain.

Here's the basic one I laid out for myself at the start of the thread

"My threat scenarios include natural and man made disasters. I am fairly familiar with both; Rodney King - day 2, WTO from the start, NOLA from day 5, a couple fine African countries during violence, and Iraq.

I am not prepared for full scale or near full scale nuclear war. Nor am I prepared to be at ground zero for a CBRNE attack, but I have basic equipment to try to get out of a fallout area.

My GHB must also be everyday usable and provide comfort during inconveniences, as I have limited space and weight with air travel and at least one full checked bag must be work stuff and half of another minimum for normal clothes and such."



To expand: I want to be able to weather minor problems like just getting stuck somewhere to local power outages, to major problems like 911 times a few, a sudden Katrina or CA earthquake scenario, rioting on a large scale, and up to and including multiple nukes/dirty bombs or even a significant EMP strike.

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_: Originally Posted By Tommygun45: Perhaps it would help to set some parameters for the application of the GHB.  I know that there are an infinite number of possibilities and scenarios that would cause us to grab and go, but I think the GHB is applicable in a fairly narrow application.   I work my bag development in the vein of a national critical incident while I am away from home that suspends air travel.  Because if it is a full on lock down I’ll have to shelter in place, and I’ll need the contents of my bag to do that effectively, or I will be getting on the road.  This makes the GHB different from my truck bag or BOB. So if I’m in Florida when the balloon goes up and need to get back to NY ASAP I don’t think I want to find the AT trail head and start walking.  That leaves the interstates and older state routes.  I will have to procure transportation (beg, borrow or steal a car) Then I am going to be traveling through both major cities and small towns. If I don’t have to get home right now and it is unreasonable to hole up where I am then I can either head for the hills or phone a friend. If these are my anticipated circumstances my equipment needs to support this.  I will need to Move, hydrate, shelter, communicate and sustain. Here's the basic one I laid out for myself at the start of the thread "My threat scenarios include natural and man made disasters. I am fairly familiar with both; Rodney King - day 2, WTO from the start, NOLA from day 5, a couple fine African countries during violence, and Iraq. I am not prepared for full scale or near full scale nuclear war. Nor am I prepared to be at ground zero for a CBRNE attack, but I have basic equipment to try to get out of a fallout area. My GHB must also be everyday usable and provide comfort during inconveniences, as I have limited space and weight with air travel and at least one full checked bag must be work stuff and half of another minimum for normal clothes and such." To expand: I want to be able to weather minor problems like just getting stuck somewhere to local power outages, to major problems like 911 times a few, a sudden Katrina or CA earthquake scenario, rioting on a large scale, and up to and including multiple nukes/dirty bombs or even a significant EMP strike.

This is exactly what I have been planning to have to weather with my GHB. I am planning on having to do some longer term hiking to get out of the area that is FUBAR. I picked up one of the Microbeam mini head lamps to play with today at the airport while I wait on my flight. It is really tiny and light weight. It will definitely fill the roll of a keychain light and it clips to the bill of my hat. Gotta love that. Seems like things get added and removed pretty frequently.

Here is what I think I will need to be able to do in a get home situation:  

Move; on foot, or by vehicle for a significant distance.

Shelter; to be safe and comfortable for a quick overnight, or 3-4 days at a time in an urban or rural setting

Sustain; air, food water, health and hygiene. I would like to have my own stuff to do this, but I have the ability to procure what I need.  

Communicate; cell/ land lines, visual, audio.  (I’m not a ham guy so anything beyond marine VHF is out of my league.)

Obviously RAGNARS bag does all of this very well.  I especially like the way it is scalable to deal with everything from a night stuck in the airport to a week long journey home.

Two Questions for the board:
1) It seems that a back pack is the preferred bag for the GHB.  What about a bike messenger type bag or sling pack?
2) Is there a place for a good leverage tool such as a set of channel locks or vice-grips in the GHB?

Originally Posted By Tommygun45: Two Questions for the board: 1) It seems that a back pack is the preferred bag for the GHB.  What about a bike messenger type bag or sling pack? 2) Is there a place for a good leverage tool such as a set of channel locks or vice-grips in the GHB?

I think a shoulder bag would make a good second bag, but once I fill up on food and water for 3-4 days my bag will be over 35# which won't be comfortable as a shoulder bag.

For tools, I try to have with me what I will need but won't be able to get. Even after buyouts and looting, there are things that will still be available. alcohol for my stove as an example, tools would be another. I have been thinking of a second multitool as one set of pliers is only so useful but two is very useful, especially with the bits and such they have now.

I try to keep significant tools in my vehicle at home. But you make me think one of the things I should add to my get right away list is tools i.e. if I have a car getting large pry bars, axe, shovel, bolt cutters, bow saw, sledge will make getting through into most anything easy.

Originally Posted By Tommygun45: 2) Is there a place for a good leverage tool such as a set of channel locks or vice-grips in the GHB?

That's a good question.

My BOB is different from everyone else's of course because our missions and skill sets are mostly different.

One thing that is very important for my mission was a small, versatile and complex tool kit that weighs a few valuable pounds and contains tools that would allow me to take apart a handheld radio, fix a pair of glasses, repair a firearm, and a lot of other expedient tasks. It has -from a plastic tuning tool, to mini-screw drivers, hex keys, a file, cut-down 7 in one screwdriver, mini voltmeter, mini butane soldering iron, dental mirror, photon type light, etc. Tools needed to get into most small equipment and maybe fix it. It's for what I'm good at but the kit probably should be different for others.

It has a pair of the smallest ViceGrip brand pliers, the ones with the large rounded ends that at first I thought were 'strange' but now find particulary useful.

So I'd say it depends on your personal mission.

Originally Posted By EXPY37: One thing that is very important for my mission was a small, versatile and complex tool kit that weighs a few valuable pounds and contains tools that would allow me to take apart a handheld radio, fix a pair of glasses, repair a firearm, and a lot of other expedient tasks. It has -from a plastic tuning tool, to mini-screw drivers, hex keys, a file, cut-down 7 in one screwdriver, mini voltmeter, mini butane soldering iron, dental mirror, photon type light, etc.

I would like to have more tools but honestly I don't know how to fix electronics. I was considering adding a dental mirror (mostly for fixing broken teeth but it could be useful for other things.)

I am still leaning towards a multi tool that takes all the bits, I could make bits for things I own that it doesn't have.

I should add Glock parts just because they don't weigh anything. I already have the Glock sized punches in a plug that fits in the space in the grip.

What other "spares" do people carry and what tools?

Originally Posted By Tommygun45: Communicate; cell/ land lines, visual, audio.  (I’m not a ham guy so anything beyond marine VHF is out of my league.)

I forgot to add that I carry 2 - $20 prepaid phone cards from two different companies in my gear for landline commo.

HAM radios are easy enough and I think a good long term investment in yourself. Not the end all but can do what other things can't.

I carry the Leatherman Surge. Its a full sized tool and is much more reliable than the smaller, cheesier ninja pliers. I carry the hex bits and spare saws for the replaceable file/saw blade.

I will also have a pair of the small channel locks. They are about 6" long and they are strong enough to move bolts in most automotive and machine applications. A little vibration (tapping) on a bolt while turning it will perform miracles in a pinch.

Leatherman squirt E4 has wire strippers, cutters, tweezers, and other handy stuff.

My signal mirror will do for fixing things as well as signalling help.

As for tools this is what I have in my murse for EDC
Tools: lock Picks, shims, magic rocks, headlamp, Channel locks 6", mini hack saw, Gerber tool, Sure fire E2E, Benchmade AFCK, monocular.

One of the best things I have bought is an electronic scale. It makes you honest and objective.

I was just weighing everything again, as I’ve changed a lot of stuff since I started writing it down a year ago. I have 95% on a spreadsheet, and the numbers don’t lie.

I knew I needed to reduce the weight of the aid pouch and the tool bag. Well just the pouch the aid gear is in weighs 11oz which is a bit more than the contents! How much do I need a cool deployment bag and leash for my aid gear? Not that much! I can put it in a 4oz bag

The tool bag was just something I had around and it ends up weighing 9.2oz. Again way too much that’s almost ¼ the weight of what it carries. I can put it a 2oz bag.

The extra battery for the radio weighs 6.5 oz and I still have the battery pack that takes AAs. I will just go with the AA one and the one on the radio. How much power do I need? The hardcase the radio is in protects it from impact and is waterproof, but it weighs 9.3oz, is it worth it? Or the other idea is to dump the AA one and go with the standard, as originally I was trying to create some sort of AA consistency in my gear and now I really don’t have much that uses them (the radio and the NODs) getting rid of the AA charger would save another 6.3oz. I’m also dumping the long wire. That’s 5.9 more. A total of 27.3 oz, almost two pounds.

A camelback bladder weighs in at 10.5 oz. I need to strip the insulating cover of the tube and see how much that weighs. I could just go with plastic water bottles which I have with me all the time. The camelback bladder was mostly for if I decide to use a filter. I hate drinking from them. I think I’ll dump the whole thing and just use my nalgene bottle and whatever other water bottles I find.

If I go with the pvs14, it’s hardcase weighs 9 oz, once again do I really need the case?

That’s 61.0 oz right there. 3.5 lbs lets me carry as much as the nods and the suppressed .22 and 100rds for free if I want.

Ragnar,
The scale is a tremendous help. I use one myself.  I literally shave ounces here and there which eventually ad up to pounds.  Look at the Platypus hydration systems (Nalgene also makes a similar style). They make very light weight and strong bladders that are much lighter than CB.  I generally don't use them with a drinking hose, but rather just for storage in the pack and a light weight plastic water bottle for staying hydrated.  Overall, ounces equal pounds and the more pounds you carry the less distance you will cover.  I have covered nearly 200 miles in 10 days with essentially my GHB on the John Muir Trail.  It is extremely rugged terrain.  

However, I think that urban E&E/GH scenarios are far more realistic for me and thus my GHB reflects those changes.

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_: I should add Glock parts just because they don't weigh anything. I already have the Glock sized punches in a plug that fits in the space in the grip. What other "spares" do people carry and what tools?

I shot a Glock 17 in competition for a decade or so and in that time I put probably 30,000 rounds through it. The total list of parts that needed to be replaced was...
Two extractors and two trigger springs (the gun will function without them), for a total weight of about two mouse turds.
I also replaced the recoil spring once because I heard they eventually wear out, but it never gave me a problem.
The small screwdriver blade on a leatherman is all you need to take the gun completely apart. Hope that helps. L

ttt

How about a flt bar or wonder bar for the bob?  If weight is a concern I believe that they can be found in titanium.  I have opened a few locks and pryed a few doors them in my mis spent youth and I think they are very usefull in an urban setting.  As they say don't use your knife as a pry bar, So I guess I need to carry a pry bar.

As for my opinion on your GHB, first things first:



I travel extensively for business: flying minimum 2x per week, minimum 45 weeks per year.  I have a GHB but it is so minimal compared to what you have, it isn't even worth comparing.

That said, some observations:

Gossamer gear is the shit.  
As for carrying $1000 cash, I am impressed -- and I know I need to carry more than I do for the reasons you stated.  I am thinking about getting a money belt just so I know the $$ is always with me.

1st aid kit : you may want to add an irrigation syringe as irrigation (pressure) with clean water (or iodine, etc but pressure is the key) is the best way to keep infection out of a wound.  It is very, very light.  Also, you may want to think about multiple pairs of latex/nitrile gloves -- it is likely you will be giving aid to others.  


The bag you check - does that always accompany you even at work?  or is it (like in my case), usually at the hotel during the workday?  Does your GH plan involve first getting to the hotel to get your larger bag or can you make it home with what's on you?

Do you drink coffee every day?  If so, you may want to think about packing some no-doz if only to stave off the caffeine withdrawl headache.

Overall, what is your PLAN to get home if you are far away (eg East Coast)?
Walk?  Bicycle?  Car?  There is a reason that I always am the one who rents a car in my team.  

Originally Posted By Hartmann: That said, some observations: Gossamer gear is the shit.   As for carrying $1000 cash, I am impressed -- and I know I need to carry more than I do for the reasons you stated.  I am thinking about getting a money belt just so I know the $$ is always with me. I keep the money in the pack, but I normally keep all the cash I'm going to need for the trip in my wallet so it may be $300-500 more. 1st aid kit : you may want to add an irrigation syringe as irrigation (pressure) with clean water (or iodine, etc but pressure is the key) is the best way to keep infection out of a wound.  It is very, very light.  Also, you may want to think about multiple pairs of latex/nitrile gloves -- it is likely you will be giving aid to others. The syringe is a good idea and light. I carry two pairs of gloves and am pretty picky about who I give aid to and for anyone I know I wouldn't even take the time for gloves in an emergency. Not fool proof in any way but looks are a data point to judge  chances of disease and chances of transmition are also slim. The bag you check - does that always accompany you even at work?  or is it (like in my case), usually at the hotel during the workday?  Does your GH plan involve first getting to the hotel to get your larger bag or can you make it home with what's on you? I take it in the car 95% of the time and it goes back and forth to the hotel room. I would still try to go back to the hotel under proper conditions and get more stuff Do you drink coffee every day?  If so, you may want to think about packing some no-doz if only to stave off the caffeine withdrawl headache. I don't drink that much caffeine but have considered caffeine pills or even adding prescription speed to the kit. Overall, what is your PLAN to get home if you are far away (eg East Coast)? Walk?  Bicycle?  Car?  There is a reason that I always am the one who rents a car in my team.

I have a car most of the time. If cars function I would use it. I first would not move for a day or two unless the situation called for it. (I would get a ton of gas ASAP) I would wait for the herd to clear a little. While waiting I would attempt to acquire the tools I feel will be helpful for the journey.

If it does call for immediate evac, I would go oncoming on the most direct route away from the problem, something others will not figure out until most likely after I am clear (a route with ways off of it preferably) I get good cars, almost always a SUV, and have done a lot of drivers training and driven in war zones a bit. I would be moving at a maximum safe velocity.

If cars don't work I would sit again for a day or two if possible. If not possible, I would use anything to move to include finding an old car and hotwiring it (assuming EMP caused cars not to work)

As for theft I would do everything not to do this, and would never think of depriving a person of anything they were using. I would borrow something not being used, i.e car parked in the middle of parking lot with tons of other cars that don't work, but never try to take one from someone. If I slept in a building I would leave notes with contact info and an IOU for anything I used. I would return anything I used as soon as possible with an apology for its use and full compensation for its use.

I doubt it would come to this. I know it has been debated that any unauthorized use of others property is always theft and always completely wrong. My moral system understands “in extremis” situations. I would have been the guy in NOLA who broke open the fence and took the fishing boat from the unoccupied house and used it to save lives. I would have kept all the info from the boat and some day when possible contacted the owners and explained myself. If others think that is wrong fine by me.

I understand that killing a human in moral or immoral based on the totality of the situation, not based on the act of the killing. My beliefs apply this the same way to other actions. I don’t expect or try to change others minds on the subject.

I would also feel free to conduct battlefield recovery on any left-over property of predators who attempted to harm or molest me.

If I am on foot, I will hope the NG is deployed quickly. I will use the “flags” that I fly and my ID to make contact and will use my cool guy status from SF to hitch a ride to their highest HQ I can find. I will then find a way to get transported and a hand-off to the next adjoining unit and continue to do that as far as needed.

If I cannot use the NG, I would try the Ham radio tribe, and contact and after describing myself and my situation ask if someone close to me has a safe place to sleep the night as I travel across the country to home. I would hope to use any contact made to get a radio handoff and personal recommendation from the last Ham to the handoff. These people once inside their network will have up to date info, road info, security info, etc. and are on average far more prepared people.

I have spent a few years in Ranger Batt and SF, so I believe if necessary in the worst possible case, I can conduct a foot E&E through urban, rural, or wilderness terrain.

My bag is probably way overkill and I will try to reduce it as I think and experiment more.

I just don't trust the gov. in a time of crisis that is so bad that I may be walking home from the west coast. They could easily force me into a herd of sheeple, "For my own good".

I plan on staying under the radar so to speak. It would be extremely tough, but I have no doubt that I can pull it off. I will take rides when I can and accept generosity when available.

Stealing is wrong, period. If there is not owner left, I would go ahead and take something that helped me, but never forcing someone to help me.

The funny part is you guys might accidently meet me on the way accross! I may be going home to ohio from the west coast. You guys may be trying to get home from the east coast! I won't recognize you, but I hope that you recognize me by my actions and civility.

Ragnar: well thought-out plan, and I have definitely learned a thing or two from this post re: my own x-country GH plans.

I think though that more than anything, your skills are what puts you ahead of the crowd in such an event.  From your post you've said you have the following skills (in no particular order):

Basic elecotrnic (hotwiring, etc)
HAM radio
Lockpicking (& credentials to match)
Tactical driving (& experience)
Ex-military (SF) - knowing the lingo, look, etc.

I'd venture to say that many of of us here don't have these skills, and need to acquire them more than acquiring more gear.

Just a note:

LAPOLICE gear has Nomex gloves on sale.  I added some to my bag after seeing your post.  

Originally Posted By Hartmann: Ragnar: well thought-out plan, and I have definitely learned a thing or two from this post re: my own x-country GH plans. I think though that more than anything, your skills are what puts you ahead of the crowd in such an event.  From your post you've said you have the following skills (in no particular order): Basic elecotrnic (hotwiring, etc) HAM radio Lockpicking (& credentials to match) Tactical driving (& experience) Ex-military (SF) - knowing the lingo, look, etc. I'd venture to say that many of of us here don't have these skills, and need to acquire them more than acquiring more gear.

Skills will almost always trump gear. I would rather be smart than lucky.

Ragnar

2 other points I thought about:

1) gloves -- Even if you know the person you treat, you risk infecting them with your dirty hands.  Food for thought.

2) The Epi pen is a great idea, but I was taught to have that AND Benadryl since the epi pen buys you 20-25 minutes or so, just about the length of time it takes Benadryl to kick in.

Still, all in all very well thought out.  I am in denial on the gaping aspects of my plan, which essentially centers around "I hope to God it isn't an EMP strike."  Nationwide power outage would be one of the only things that would present a near-insurmountable barrier to me getting home.

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: I'm in a kinda sorta similar spot. I can get home after an EMP...What I can't do is get home after New Madrid blows apart and breaks down all the crappy bridges around here. Not to mention turns all these nice rice fields into massive pools of quick sand.

I'm guessing New Madrid is a dam?

Originally Posted By cowboy7242001: Originally Posted By Hartmann: Still, all in all very well thought out.  I am in denial on the gaping aspects of my plan, which essentially centers around "I hope to God it isn't an EMP strike."  Nationwide power outage would be one of the only things that would present a near-insurmountable barrier to me getting home. I'm in a kinda sorta similar spot. I can get home after an EMP...What I can't do is get home after New Madrid blows apart and breaks down all the crappy bridges around here. Not to mention turns all these nice rice fields into massive pools of quick sand.

The fields should be able to support weight after the shaking stops.

Skills will almost always trump gear. I would rather be smart than lucky.

The question becomes how can you acquire those skills without a 20 year SF career.
Self education only goes so far, and a lot of courses are restricted to LEO and MIL.  

So where can the rest of us get DML and DES training?

I can go to Bondurant or BSR for driving but like any skill you need to practice, and the troopers frown on J turns on the high way.

I suppose I could volunteer with the local FD to get EMS training, but they don't cover a lot of wilderness medicine.

That doesn’t include land nav, weapon maintenance, fire and shelter building, traping, construction of urban hides, ECT.

Another huge skill set is the secret squirrel stuff; field craft.  Not a lot of places to learn that. Things like; Dead drops, cut outs, MICE manipulation, ECT are important skills that are difficult to master.

Just food for thought on what skills are best for getting the most out of our gear selections.

Originally Posted By Tommygun45: Skills will almost always trump gear. I would rather be smart than lucky. The question becomes how can you acquire those skills without a 20 year SF career. Self education only goes so far, and a lot of courses are restricted to LEO and MIL.   So where can the rest of us get DML and DES training? I can go to Bondurant or BSR for driving but like any skill you need to practice, and the troopers frown on J turns on the high way. I suppose I could volunteer with the local FD to get EMS training, but they don't cover a lot of wilderness medicine. That doesn’t include land nav, weapon maintenance, fire and shelter building, traping, construction of urban hides, ECT. Another huge skill set is the secret squirrel stuff; field craft.  Not a lot of places to learn that. Things like; Dead drops, cut outs, MICE manipulation, ECT are important skills that are difficult to master. Just food for thought on what skills are best for getting the most out of our gear selections.

At least half my training I have gotten myself.

First take the money you would have spent on something like BSR and save it. Go to everything that is free or cheap.

SCCA and autocross schools are free or cheap.

All the EMS you can get from the fire dept or anyone else.

HAM radio from clubs.

Get involveded in orienteering with a local club.

Don't worry about primitive skills, evasion survival is much simpler. trapping and fishing are useless evasion skills IMO.


Then after a couple years of learning everything that is free, cheap, or local; top of your skills with that money you have been saving.

Great reply.  Thank you for the suggestions.

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_: At least half my training I have gotten myself. First take the money you would have spent on something like BSR and save it. Go to everything that is free or cheap. SCCA and autocross schools are free or cheap. All the EMS you can get from the fire dept or anyone else. HAM radio from clubs. Get involveded in orienteering with a local club. Don't worry about primitive skills, evasion survival is much simpler. trapping and fishing are useless evasion skills IMO. Then after a couple years of learning everything that is free, cheap, or local; top of your skills with that money you have been saving.

Excellent info, thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted By batmanacw: I just don't trust the gov. in a time of crisis that is so bad that I may be walking home from the west coast. They could easily force me into a herd of sheeple, "For my own good". I plan on staying under the radar so to speak. It would be extremely tough, but I have no doubt that I can pull it off. I will take rides when I can and accept generosity when available. Stealing is wrong, period. If there is not owner left, I would go ahead and take something that helped me, but never forcing someone to help me. The funny part is you guys might accidently meet me on the way accross! I may be going home to ohio from the west coast. You guys may be trying to get home from the east coast! I won't recognize you, but I hope that you recognize me by my actions and civility.

I know what you mean about stealing, trust me I have had several thousand $'s worth of guns get taken and it sucks, but really; in a survival situation there may come times when you have to put your civility on the back burner and do what you have to do to survive.  That might mean doing ugly things.

Originally Posted By HootieWho: Originally Posted By batmanacw: I just don't trust the gov. in a time of crisis that is so bad that I may be walking home from the west coast. They could easily force me into a herd of sheeple, "For my own good". I plan on staying under the radar so to speak. It would be extremely tough, but I have no doubt that I can pull it off. I will take rides when I can and accept generosity when available. Stealing is wrong, period. If there is not owner left, I would go ahead and take something that helped me, but never forcing someone to help me. The funny part is you guys might accidently meet me on the way accross! I may be going home to ohio from the west coast. You guys may be trying to get home from the east coast! I won't recognize you, but I hope that you recognize me by my actions and civility. I know what you mean about stealing, trust me I have had several thousand $'s worth of guns get taken and it sucks, but really; in a survival situation there may come times when you have to put your civility on the back burner and do what you have to do to survive.  That might mean doing ugly things.

I am what I am. I could easily kill a bad guy to take what he has for my survival, but to hurt a normal sheeple to get food would just not be okay in my book. I seriously doubt that a sheeple will have more supplies or a better chance at survival than I do anyway.  I bet that you would judge things the same, even if it meant going hungry for awhile.

Stealing from sheeple to survive would turn me from a sheep dog to a wolf. I can't do that.

once again I wouold say you have to look at an act in totality. When the soccer players from "ALIVE" wandered out of the mountains and broke into a cabin and ate food were they stealing? Does this act of theft (if it is decided it is theft) moraly equivelent to taking food from a person who needs it to survive? I do not see them as the same acts.

For that matter for the "ALIVE" guys does the totality of the situation make the act of eating the dead different? Of course it does.

Originally Posted By _RAGNAR_: once again I wouold say you have to look at an act in totality. When the soccer players from "ALIVE" wandered out of the mountains and broke into a cabin and ate food were they stealing? Does this act of theft (if it is decided it is theft) moraly equivelent to taking food from a person who needs it to survive? I do not see them as the same acts. For that matter for the "ALIVE" guys does the totality of the situation make the act of eating the dead different? Of course it does.

I guess I should rephrase my point. I would not take food out of the hands of someone who is currently eating it because I have the power to take it. If the food was sitting in a cabin and nobody is currently using it, then I will have to borrow it! If it was in current use and there was a family depending on that food, then I probably would try to find another way. An abandoned house is fair game in SHTF.

anybody know how to post a spreadsheet?