Posted: 6/21/2007 5:57:31 PM EDT
| I'll hop into my anti flame suit quickly in case this pisses the Ham gang. What are the pro's and con's of using the Marine band freq in the event of SHTF? It's a band that shouldnt have alot of traffic on it and not alot of people listening to this band. I know about the legal use of the band but I'm talking real SHTF. I understand thery're NOT to be used on land... but....The range would be extended past that of Gmrs and Frs. Used equipment is cheaply found all over flea bay and the hand helds are 1 to 5 watts power. Just a thought here. Tell me why it would be a bad idea? |
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Are you even aware of the fact that a large portion of the marine VHF channels aren't even simplex? They're half duplex and MOST commercially available VHF radios don't have the shoreside (repeater) pairs in them, so comms from radio to radio on those channels are not possible without a repeater in the area. FYI, the Coast Guard monitors and records all activity on channel 16 (and maybe other channels as well) wherever they have a presence. And, watt for watt, marine radios do NOT have more range than any other type of radio. Not GMRS, not MURS, not commercial channels. Same power, same range, pretty much. The performance of the receiver is more important than raw transmitter power output. CJ |
Seems like this question has come up lots lately. My best answer is: Because to legally use Marine VHF for the application you mention, life or limb must be in immediate jeopardy. "Tough times" or general SHTF as we usually envision it won't cut it -- to pass the smell test there must be an acute life or death need to use the radio in an otherwise unauthorized way. That means you'd have no way to test your gear, practice its operation, or train with those whom you wish to have comms with. Another poster here likens dependence on comms you can't test or practice with to buying an AR and tossing it in the closet until you "need" it. The reason hams sound like such a broken record responding to this type question is because we're aware of how much better equipment and support is available going the ham route. For the same money, too. Technician licensing is a no-brainer for anyone wishing to take their communications preparations seriously. I've known lots of SF'ers to get licensed and not once have I heard someone who regrets it or fails to benefit from it. It's the best $14 you'll ever spend, IMO. It'll make you wonder why anyone would every want to break FCC rules in other services (misuse of Marine VHF, illegal power amps for CB's, unlicensed use of GMRS or business bands, etc) when you can do basically whatever you want (equipment-wise) via the amateur service. |
<------The "Ham Gang" In a true massive SHTF event. You are going to see traffic all over the place where it isn't normally found. I suspect that unless you are very close to a land based receiver that is licensee to that freq that 5 watt portable isn't going to cause that much trouble. Now this is where it gets tricky. The "don't transmit marine radios on land" rule isn't just some wacky law that is simply there to piss off the tinfoil crowd it has a VERY good reason for existing. That reason is that many commercial and public safety entities have communications capabilities that are in the VHF high band area. Obviously they don't exist on the ocean and hence are used quite extensively. But lets have a reality check real quick, in a SHTF event will you be hunted down for interferating with public safety communications (assuming you are). Probably not. But you do have to make peace with the chance that you using your marine radios in the middle of the land you could interfere with emergency operations of the local government. Now before the BS flag is raised I will qualify the above statement by saying that the reason I know this is because I am a county communications official and although we do not operate VHF high band (marine) with our primary trunked radio system marine radios WILL interfere with some of our interoperable assets. We have trouble with marine radios all of the time and have busted a few people using them. Now I can see all of the squinted eye folks already  that don't give a flying fuck about anyone or anything else in the world. If they can talk to there buddy then they are all cool but fuck everybody else. These guys really bug me, they are the types that run these 1000 watt POS CBs and don't give the slightest shit about a single other humans ability to communicate with anyone else. These are the people that not only run VHF marine on land right now but probably do it with radios much more powerful and much more spurious.I didn't mean to turn this into a rant (and I'm not accusing you of anything  ) so I'll slide back on topic. Short answer: You probably won't cause much harm with 5 watts however be aware of why this rule exists and make peace with the fact that you may be doing more damage to the community than you are aware of. I didn't mean to rant and I am sorry about that I truly meant this as a non-offensive post. LTC |
I apologize in advance if I'm taking you more literally than you intended with your statement, but have you thought through how you (a presumably land-based station) will use a Marine VHF radio to procure survival supplies? Unless you have actually set up a network of friends / family using that service there's no other structure in place to render such aid via Marine VHF. The primary aid-givers on that service are the Coast Guard -- unless you're at sea, I doubt they'll endeavor to fetch some vittles. Another thing that sets the amateur service apart from almost any other radio frequency allocation is people are actually listening who are in a position to help. They might not run to the grocery store for you, but they sure can pass radio traffic that could benefit you. Try that with CB channel 9, FRS/GMRS/MURS or misused Marine VHF. |
Generally, you would be able to hear anything you might interfere with. Obviously, if there's "official" communications traffic on a marine channel, you don't use that channel. Furthermore, considering the prevalence of marine radios - even in non-boating areas - putting official comms on those same frequencies would be a REALLY stupid move. |
that was meant for the FCC to come and arrest me and haul me off. I don't think the coasties are going to do anything |
Things you are forgetting: 1)Some marine channels operate with a split. That means that you are transmitting on a frequency that you are not listening on. Some are simplex but not all. 2)marine radios are prevalent and available however most people are smart enough not to use them illegally. The troublemakers are a very very small percentage. It isn't always direct interference either. Poor quality equipment sends out spurs and interference that the user often isn't even aware of. When this happens we can and often DO find the troublemakers and turn them over to the FCC. Trust me its no small slap on the wrist to interfere with public safety communications. (On a side note I kind of like finding these guys as it justifies some expensive toys in the office )The vast majority of all users of these radios use them properly but the few that don't can cause damage. As to the comment that it is stupid to use the VHF freqs because marine radios are available. I would argue that it would be stupid to let a great resourse like VHF radio go un-utilized. After all most of the country isn't even close to the ocean. I don't have a problem with anyone calling for help on any freq (marine included) when your life or a loved ones life is in direct harm. I have a problem with those people who use them for day to day comms. Its a viable debate though. I can see where both sides can make arguments. Again no flames intended -LTC- |
...which doesn't change the fact that there are thousands of marine radios in the average non-coastal city. Again, any ECO who selects these same frequencies for official comms - on the assumption that they shouldn't be occupied - is a fool. |
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LTCetme you make alot of sense, but please keep one thing in mind. You are dealing with a group of people that will do anything not to take a test. A test that can be studied for and passable with maybe 4 hours of study. A license class that would give you so much more capability than a marine radio and the ability to talk to more people increasing your chances of being heard. LTCetme, everything you are saying is true however it is falling on deaf ears. I gave up the quest you are on a long time ago for these very reasons. I have communications solutions and capabilities I never dreamed of being able to obtain. Some people are satisfied with doing a half assed job even for something as important as communications. The older we get the more things stay the same. Let them not take their test and put together half assed solutions. This whole thread and many others like it are all about not taking a test and that is all. |
Ok. You convinced me. I am stepping off the soapbox. I find it ironic that a person will spend $2,000+ bucks on a 'tacti-cool- AR with every 'tactical' accessory like lights and lasers for the remotest chance that someday he might need it for survival but is not willing to spend the minimal money (<$200) to put a non-minimalist comm setup together. You may have to bet your loved ones lives on this stuff why skimp? I guess I will leave this and go invest in some more of this stuff: 
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Exactly! I don't understand it either but change and learning new things seemingly doesn't agree with most people. What I can accomplish with my TS-2000 or FT-857D is nothing short of amazing. Some people will never see that and that's fine. Personally, like you, I view communications as being just as important as firearms or ammo. I have no issue spending $1000 for a great AR-15 or FAL nor do I have any issue spending the same on communications. Being able to communicate or obtain news/information in a situation can make the difference between life and death and that is good enough for me. The amazing thing is studying for the Tech exam can be done in about 2 days, the General test not much more than that. With a weeks worth of dedication the general class license can be obtained and now local, regional, and national communications become easy. You know, in the ham community for years I heard people say the only reason they don't upgrade their license is because of morse code testing. Well, now that morse code testing is gone many of the same people that would complain at every turn still haven't upgraded...just lazy and all talk. I did a major review 5 years ago regarding comms and came to the conclusion that it is just as important as every other prep. When I compiled all of the information it became obvious very quickly that FRS/GMRS would be used for very short distances and ham was the choice for state, regional, and national comms. I also felt an emergency radio like the Grundig could help the cause. The interesting thing is, do you think with all of the information I was able to get one other friend to go take a test? The answer was no. People love to talk about accomplishing things. They love to show off their new gun or a pile of ammo, unfortunately most don't have the same excitement regarding communications, backup power, or financial preps. If you get a chance I would like to hear about your comms solutions and see how you have put your setup together. |
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Wow, there's enough BS in this thread to sink a ship. First, there's these things with water called rivers, lakes, and oceans. Believe it or not many of them have cities on them where Marine band radios are used consistantly without the whole cities communications shutting down. Where I live is a good 8 hour drive by car from the ocean yet there are thousands of marine band radios in the area. No Marine band wouldn't even be in my option list if I was in the desert but around a navigatable body of water it is my first choice. The strength of the Marine band is IT IS monitored by the coast guard as well as local law enforcement that is on the water. Channels 16 (reserved for hailing) and channel 9 (reserved for emergency) are totally clear of channel hogs talking about what their wife bought at the store today or how many antennas are on their truck. When you call for assistance, you don't have spend an hour to break a channel nor depend on a middle man to make a phone call who thinks you are bullshitting or for that matter simply annoyed cause you interrupted his discussion about his latest electronic toy. Marine band radios are kept on a even keel performance wise for a reason and that's so no one radio can spam a frequency and everyon has an equal opportunity for communication. First and foremost it is a SURVIVAL radio and not a hobby radio. Unlike most other citizen available radios, marine operators by common law are bound to have their radio on and render assistance on water. This is not followed by some but still very common with older boaters, larger boats, commerical boats, and law enforcement. The reason why all radios have different power settings is so you can use lower power for both some privacy as well as some consideration by not hogging a frequency. Most Marine radios have 1 watt power setting. The handhelds are very limited in range due to the 5 watt restriction. Base units are 25 watt and with a whip antenna reach an easy 25 miles or to the horizon even with some hills inbetween. Yes, Marine band radios are restricted to on the water use, however when your ass is on the line I don't think I personally would be worried about getting an FCC ticket. Still they are best suited for the water and 80% of this planet is water. Please keep in mind water use is not only boat to boat but ship to shore. The times I have had to use a Marine band in an emergency, I have never had to search frequencies, try to break a channel spam/block, go through a third party, and always got a reply from the authorities. This of course is within sight of land and near navigatable water. The marine band has SHTF potential but most importantly it has every day emergency use and is saving lives and rescuing boaters every day. I wouldn't care to be on the water without one. Tj |
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^ + 1 I have a marine vhf on my boat theat is used at sea and in lakes and rivers. When the boat is on the water the radio is on. Law of the sea requires that you lend help as long as it does not put your self at risk. When at sea I have talk to other boats that are 30 miles away. Land base are easy to get 45+ miles. Hand helds 5+ miles. Is it the best radio for chit-chat on land? NO Will it work in an emergency ? YES |
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Interesting Topic. And I agree with BOTH LTCetme and TJ. The real question in my mind comes with how are you going to use the radio during SHTF. Generally I hear 2 uses. 1) call to emergency personnel (USCG, police, fire etc) or 2) call to your group. In a real SHTF, (IMO) (1) is fine on any frequency (2) is not. So I think it would be a good idea to have a marine radio if you are near navigable bodies of water, but I personnally wouldn't make it my choice for intra-shtf-group comms. In my area, there are plenty of rivers, but I don't really see how a marine radio would be an advantage over some other radio equipment (especially a 5 watt handheld) as mentioned by the OP, unless I was actually on the water. It was mentioned above that SHTF use will generally be classified ok if true life or death type situations arise AND YOU ARE ACTUALLY CALLING FOR HELP. Not if there's a tornado and your just trying to contact your bud. |
mj1angier when you stated that "land base are easy to get 45+ miles", are you referring to flat land terrain or a combo of hills and flat land? |
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I know after talking with Tj about marine radio's several times their on my to get list ... I have a boat and my house is close enough to the lake& river that i spend most of my time on that i actually feel stupid for not having done so before now. After having the oportunity to listen to some ham radio recently i just don't think it's for me. A true Shtf i cant see the fcc or anyone else tracking people down for any kind of bs radio violation..... if they do then the shit probably hasn't really hit the fan  If anyone can recomend a good marine handheld and base station i'd apreciate it.... |
Right there is the problem. How many people are going to panic/freak out when the shit really isn't flying? I don't know. I understand that ham isn't for everyone. I have been a ham for a while, but I rarely talk and don't even listen to the repeater that much anymore. But I have the equipment, have used it sufficiently and am comfortable with it (and it's limitations). I suggest that everyone here do the same with whatever comms system they choose. |
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For those of you who have a real need for marine-band radios, I would suggest the standand horizen HX370 HT. It's the marine version of the yaesu 170 2 meter HT. It's more useful than most because (with the software and computer) you can also program up to 40 additional channels in the entire 137-174 range. While you need the software and computer to program the other stuff, the marine band stiff is ready to go out of the box. Need MURS freqs? program them in (although not 100% sure you can program the correct bandwidth per MURS CH, I will double check that soon). Need ham freqs, program them in. While the VX170 only does 6 alphatags spaces, this does 12 (while smaller text). It also have full ctcss/dcs capibilities. I have the software that was sent to me via a dealer. They don't seem anywhere as anal as /\/\  Need any other freq that you can leagally use (fire/EMS/law enforcement/business), program them in. Once again, here is a radio that can be leagally used on marine band, ham band, and busnines band freqs. It's pretty rare to find a radio that is type-accepted for Part 80 & 90 folks. |
When at sea I can talk to land based ( Coast Guard) from 45+ miles. I don't know how far it will reach in hills- I think is going to be line of sight. |
Personally if I was looking for a small hand held suitable for a small trailer boat, I would look at the West Marine VH-150. Its very compact, broadcasts 1/2.5/5watt, and waterproof for $139. I consider waterproof a key feature for a small boat. Tj |
Really... I'm going to have to look into this. It looks like you can get it for less than $120. What sort of cable is required to connect to the computer and did they charge you for the software? I have a vx6r and an ICOM u82 so I have been looking for a dedicated 2m ht. This might be the right choice. |
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Many of the Ham talkies will also cover the VHF marine channels (although they usually require a "extended coverage" modification first). Unfortunately, most of them aren't FCC type-accepted for transmission outside the ham bands, but still would probably suffice in a pinch. (List of VHF marine channels here). |
Just remember that you can't program on teh go, but if you can live with that (and only 40 memories for ham freqs) than it is something to think about. It is also much more simple than the usual ham HT, not a bunch of things that can be changed. PM me your e-mail address and I can send some PDFs I have on the programming and use. As far as teh software, I got it sent to me from someone who got it from his dealer. I'll have to check on the cable, as I forget where to get it. |
But with a simple mistake, the person who does that could also cause some issues for the people who are leagally using the CH. I was with my EC when he was running some USCG AUX ops, and he's had to sift out the hunters from the "real" users in the past. When you have a beam at 60 feet, you tend to pick up more thna local traffic
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Wow this sounds like a great radio! I am a ham tech and have a Yaesu VX-7R as well as GMRS FRS MUR's CB's and SSB and this HX370 sounds like a good addition to the quiver. |
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First off let me apologize. I didn't mean to turn this thread into a Han vs CB/marine radio thread. It seems that too many of these end like that and I do enjoy talking about comms with you guys. While I am a Ham I realize that there are other options available like CB and marine. I my self use MURS quite a bit and believe it or not I actually own a marine radio (its one of those cool waterproof ones!). If the bullets were flying someday and I had no other radio to call for help would I reach for that marine radio and call a mayday on 16? You bet your ass I would. In life or death I would do what everyone else here would do: use what ever I could to call for help. I would fight to keep my communications setup from degrading to the point where that was my only option though. The original poster asked what were some pros and cons and I gave a few cons (what I would consider major ones). And no, I doubt your marine radio will "shut a city down" like it was implied I was saying, but it can cause disruptions in the emergency services. Will you get an FCC "ticket" probably not. As someone who deals with this interference allot I am simply pointing out one possible disadvantage of using a radio outside of its designated area. I am not telling anyone what to do. I sincerely doubt it would matter anyway. Any way enough with the Ham vs everything else argument. I've made my point. I'd suggest we steer this thread in a direction like using them in a legal manner. I'm sure many people here can legitimately use the things. So now that everyone hates me I will shut up about the public safety thing you guys do what ever you want.-LTC- |
LMAO... I dont hate you!!! You've answered alot of my questions and gave me a bit of info I wasnt even looking for. I was looking for some low key stealthy comms without having to take off my tinfoil hat and get licensed.I'm NOT interested in walking on others communications or disrupting the laws, I was just looking for alternatives in case the S ever does HTF. Thanx for the replies. |