Posted: 1/8/2020 2:26:08 PM EDT
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What group size at 100 should be able to reach 1000?
1/4, 1/2? |
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1MOA is a 10.5 inch area @1000.
Having a 1/2moa rifle/load combo isnt going to subtantially increase your chances of hitting in that same 10.5in area at that range unless you can cover the environmental factors. 1MOA or less is enough to get the job done at 1000 unless you are playing with varmints or bragging rights. Also, a good 100 yard load may fall apart at 800 yards giving you no predictable results for 1000 yards. |
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How big is your target?
The farther out you get the less group size at 100 matters within reason(you'll have a tough time with 5moa groups) When 1mph wind= 7"-10" of drift, when your velocity spread =+/-8" elevation, shooting 1moa vs. 1/2 moa isn't going to make much difference. If you are good with wind and have tight loads then you see more benefit from small groups. On my budget-ish(not cut rifled bbl) ARs I seek at least 1moa 10+shot groups and low ESs(mid 20s) and low SDs(10 or less). When analyzing loads, I might not choose a load that shoots the best groups if it has crappy SD and ES numbers. The load that shoot 1/4-1/2 moa worse but has very tight velocity spreads may make tighter groups at 1000. On my bolt action that has a good barrel and a bunch of money in it I strive for 3/8-5/8 moa because I expect more. I can really see the difference between the rifles when shooting sub moa targets 400-700 yard. |
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If you think you have a 1/2 MOA rifle, or can shoot 1/2 MOA, you'll find out the ground truth at 1000 yards.
Shooting at 1000 yards involves many more factors than shooting at 100 yards. |
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Like grandma wears - depends.
My Tikka CTR in 6.5C is .4 - .8 moa at 100 yards with a 10 shot group. It also hits 8-10 out of 10 on a 10” plate at 1000 yards. Point is, an efficient bullet will/should maintain close to 1 moa at 1000 yards. What’s your set up? |
10/22/14 I stand with Canada
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Originally Posted By uglygun:
1MOA is a 10.5 inch area @1000. Having a 1/2moa rifle/load combo isnt going to subtantially increase your chances of hitting in that same 10.5in area at that range unless you can cover the environmental factors. 1MOA or less is enough to get the job done at 1000 unless you are playing with varmints or bragging rights. Also, a good 100 yard load may fall apart at 800 yards giving you no predictable results for 1000 yards. But I guess it still doesn't make sense, since I still wouldn't know until actually shooting it. |
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN:
That's kind of why I'm asking, to try and mitigate that. But I guess it still doesn't make sense, since I still wouldn't know until actually shooting it. Even well into transonic it should be fine barring a few particular bullets. Bullet shape and/or going transonic or subsonic are the only reasons a good load should "fall apart" farther out. Good load = smaller groups and small velocity spread. A 1 moa load may look like it fell apart at 800 when actually the velocities aren't consistent. One shot is 2800fps, the next is 2740fps, the next is 2810 etc. those hits will be all over from velocity differences that aren't noticed at 100 yards. |
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Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
If you think you have a 1/2 MOA rifle, or can shoot 1/2 MOA, you'll find out the ground truth at 1000 yards. Shooting at 1000 yards involves many more factors than shooting at 100 yards. Originally Posted By mustb123:
Like grandma wears - depends. My Tikka CTR in 6.5C is .4 - .8 moa at 100 yards with a 10 shot group. It also hits 8-10 out of 10 on a 10" plate at 1000 yards. Point is, an efficient bullet will/should maintain close to 1 moa at 1000 yards. What's your set up? |
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Originally Posted By housewolf:
In my limited experience; shooting 1K yds is a whole different ballgame. First time I shot my Tikka CTR at that range I started at 200 and worked my way out 100 yds at a time. I had 1st rd hits out to 800 yds using the data on the box of factory (Hornaday) ammo. It took about 3 shots at 900 to score a hit, and about a dozen at 1K. You are a better shot than me. Best (5 shot) group I've shot with mine was 1.181" @ 300 yds. But I'm still < 50/50 on a 10" target at 1K yds. I am using factory ammo though. Originally Posted By housewolf:
Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
If you think you have a 1/2 MOA rifle, or can shoot 1/2 MOA, you'll find out the ground truth at 1000 yards. Shooting at 1000 yards involves many more factors than shooting at 100 yards. Originally Posted By mustb123:
Like grandma wears - depends. My Tikka CTR in 6.5C is .4 - .8 moa at 100 yards with a 10 shot group. It also hits 8-10 out of 10 on a 10" plate at 1000 yards. Point is, an efficient bullet will/should maintain close to 1 moa at 1000 yards. What's your set up? 100 yards, 5 shots 
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10/22/14 I stand with Canada
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Originally Posted By popnfresh:
On my budget-ish(not cut rifled bbl) ARs I seek at least 1moa 10+shot groups and low ESs(mid 20s) and low SDs(10 or less). When analyzing loads, I might not choose a load that shoots the best groups if it has crappy SD and ES numbers. The load that shoot 1/4-1/2 moa worse but has very tight velocity spreads may make tighter groups at 1000. Groups at 100 yards are only a piece of the picture. I'm looking for a 10 shot ES in the low teens, and a SD of 6 or 7. When I get that, I know the ammo will do for LR. Even 10 shot groups are not the best measure of consistency; 20 shot groups are better yet. Even groups at 300, which is where I zero, don't tell the whole story. I have one rifle that shoots 3/4" 10 shot groups at 100, and ~2" to 2 1/2" at 300 that won't group into 12" at a thousand. ES is about 25 and SD around 13. |
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: 308 Grabbed some ELD X 178s to give a try. Thanks. Those 178's should work well for you. There was an article, I believe on accurate shooter maybe, that said the difference between hits at 1,000 with a MOA gun versus a 1/2MOA gun was like 12%. Given environmentals, I wouldn't worry and just go do it as you'll learn more through your misses than your hits. |
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168s behind 55g of RL-15 was the sweet spot for my .308 That is until I finally bought into the 6.5...took a quarter grouping down to 1 ragged hole. Haven’t looked back since. Hold 5 in a quarter, get your dope right, read the wind and you’ll be on paper. Hand loads almost a must. Prob stand deviation of +/- 50 fps and you’ll be cooking with gas. Happy hunting! Edit: sight in at 200. saves on optic costs with internal come up later. Edit Edit: oh and point that scope at the ground. 20 moa cant at min. |
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Originally Posted By RifleRob: 168s behind 55g of RL-15 was the sweet spot for my .308 That is until I finally bought into the 6.5...took a quarter grouping down to 1 ragged hole. Haven’t looked back since. Hold 5 in a quarter, get your dope right, read the wind and you’ll be on paper. Hand loads almost a must. Prob stand deviation of +/- 50 fps and you’ll be cooking with gas. Happy hunting! Edit: sight in at 200. saves on optic costs with internal come up later. Edit Edit: oh and point that scope at the ground. 20 moa cant at min. 10 consecutive rounds in a quarter at 100 yards and I also zero at 200 yards with a 40mao base on my Tikka CTR in 6.5C.  I don't bother adjusting the scope to get the rounds inside the quarter - I'm just testing at this stage. Even that staple looks big! |
10/22/14 I stand with Canada
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What’s velocity? Have you chrono’d? Send me your altitude and your closest guess on sight in conditions and I’ll make you a dope. That’ll get you close. 40 moa? I likey. You’ll run out of super before come up. Edit: Oh and bullet and BC duh. G1 and G7 if you got em. Edit Edit: and sight height if you got a 40moa. That things gotta be jacked up on stilts. |
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Originally Posted By RifleRob: What’s velocity? Have you chrono’d? Send me your altitude and your closest guess on sight in conditions and I’ll make you a dope. That’ll get you close. 40 moa? I likey. You’ll run out of super before come up. Edit: Oh and bullet and BC duh. G1 and G7 if you got em. Edit Edit: and sight height if you got a 40moa. That things gotta be jacked up on stilts. When you have your 1000 yard dope, dial to the sheet, and take 10 shots at the quarter. Walk down and measure how far up your group is from center. If it matches what your dope says in drop you’re g2g. Po mans 1000 yards.  Big target! |
| An NRA 1000 yard target is six feet square. One MOA at 1000 yards subtends approximately 10 inches. So, 72"/10"=7.2 MOA. Your rifle doesn't have to be spectacularly accurate (although that always helps). Rather, you have to be good at translating conditions into scope adjustments, a master at trigger control, own a scope that has dead-nuts repeatable adjustment, patient shooting buddies, and a calm demeanor to get on paper at 1000. |
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Originally Posted By RifleRob: When you have your 1000 yard dope, dial to the sheet, and take 10 shots at the quarter. Walk down and measure how far up your group is from center. If it matches what your dope says in drop you’re g2g. Po mans 1000 yards. Big target! Nice protip. Thanks |
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You can have poor velocity extreme spread and shoot sub MOA at 100 with an accurate rifle. Short range groups don’t extrapolate to LR groups. At LR, the rifle AND the ammo need to be accurate/consistent with small ES. |
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Originally Posted By CPT_CAVEMAN: That's kind of why I'm asking, to try and mitigate that. But I guess it still doesn't make sense, since I still wouldn't know until actually shooting it. How far out can you shoot? The further out the better even if it's only 200 or 300 yards. |
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Originally Posted By Millennial: You can have poor velocity extreme spread and shoot sub MOA at 100 with an accurate rifle. Short range groups don’t extrapolate to LR groups. At LR, the rifle AND the ammo need to be accurate/consistent with small ES. Yup. I start at 100 yards. All 10 shots must fit inside a tracing of a quarter. Then, 2 or 300 yards, etc… if the round holds 1 MOA at 1,000 yards, I call it good enough. |
10/22/14 I stand with Canada
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Originally Posted By Millennial: You can have poor velocity extreme spread and shoot sub MOA at 100 with an accurate rifle. Short range groups don’t extrapolate to LR groups. At LR, the rifle AND the ammo need to be accurate/consistent with small ES. Right right, I mean there's a certain velocity etc. You need to load for which is why I asked about group sizes. And I get that what a gun shoots atv100 yards doesn't necessarily translate to down range due to whatever(weather, shooter fatigue, just whatever). But it should at least give you a good idea of loads to try for further distances. |