Posted: 9/21/2024 12:02:10 PM EDT
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I've been playing with a number of different options on my Marlin 45-70 SBL. I started with iron sights, then a Leupold 2.5x Scout Scope, then a Ultra Dot red dot sight I pulled off a hunting revolver I bought. Given the relatively short range (less than 150 yards) that I envision for this rifle, I'm curious what most hunters would choose? I'm not much of a hunter, but an experienced shooter. I sense that the Ultra Dot would be faster, especially on moving hogs or something like that. But, the Scout Scope provides a bit more precision and perhaps slightly improved ability to identify game, though not as fast. What says the hunting hive? |
Shooter6 Out
I'm in the scout scope group. With my aging eyes a 1.5- 4x reticle trumps a red dot at 100+ yards. With QD rings, if I'm in heavy timber I can pull the scope and use my ghost ring peep.
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America is at that awkward stage, it’s too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards....Claire Wolfe
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Definitely the scout scope. I have levers set up this way in 30/30 308 Savage 99 45/70. The scout scope is as fast as a dot of you practice. I know someone who has used those Lehigh 325 Extreme Penetrators in a 45/70 double rifle in Africa on Cape Buffalo multiple times and they are absolutely devastating on them. |
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I had an old 2.5x shotgun scope on my SBR .300 BLK. I had a sounder of hogs come out of the thick stuff about 10 feet from me. I know I hit several because I had black fur in the scope and two fell over. But when the dust settled and I picked up 24 empty brass cases, I couldn't find any dead hogs. ( I didn't look real hard). That gun had a Trijicon MRO on it now. I have a Red Dot on my 300 BLK Ruger American Ranch. I have only sighted it in with sub sonic ammo and use it in places where my shots are limited to 50 yards or less. My other hunting guns have variable power scopes on them. Most often a 2-7x. but there are some 1-5x and 3-9x in the mix. |
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I'm not a fan of scout scopes. I'm assuming there is a time an place for them like anything, but as a general purpose they seem to have all drawbacks with no benefits I can find. They are basically pistol scopes mounted far forward, and they have the same problem of pistol scopes. The big one being the poor field of view. Supposedly the forward mounted scopes are faster to use, and I can not disagree more. The eyebox is the same, but your field of view is less than a similar scope mounted conventionally. Something like your fixed 2.5x wouldn't be the worst choice ever, it would be giving up some capability real close, but it would be usable. I'm going to compare a conventional rifle scope and red dots, being as they are more reasonable comparisons. The biggest benefits to red dots is the large field of view. Other than the slight ring of the housing, with both eyes open, it's basically unlimited field of view. There's a whole argument about "true" 1x rifle scopes, but for the vast majority, there is a clear distortion when shooting both eyes open. That said, it's really not a huge hinderance with something like a 1.5-4x scope set to 1.5x. The red dot has the potential to be faster, but I'm not sure it matters as much in the hunting realm. If you regularly shoot moving animals, such as being pushed by dogs, then it could be a factor. Another benefit of red dots is the small size and light weight. I'm assuming your Ultradot is one of the tube models, which are a little bigger, but they are smaller and lighter than just about any rifle scope. One of the small reflex dots like many use on handguns today are smaller and lighter than a set of iron sights. There's not much for rifle scopes under 10 ounces. A fixed 2.5x is about as light as it gets at about 7 ounces. The Leupold 1.5-4x is right at 10 ounces. It appears the Ultradot is listed online as only 4 ounces. One of the drawbacks to a red dot is the lack of image clarity. There's really nothing, it's just your naked eyeball. Any riflescope that isn't trash will enhance your view, and this is especially important in low light. The fact that a red dot uses an illuminated dot is irrelevant if you can't see the animal. There are also rifle scopes that have illuminated reticles. For the most part you can see black reticles fine during legal shooting hours, but there are some exceptions, especially for something like black bear which are both black, and you hunt them in the darkest/thickest areas. I imagine you can have the same problem with pigs, which can also be black. Between a red dot and a standard black reticle rifle scope, you can use a rifle scope in darker conditions than a red dot. With precision, I don't think there is as big of a difference as some perceive. There's no doubt a high magnification makes it easier to shoot better groups on paper at even 100 yards, but I don't think the difference between a red dot and a 4x scope is that huge. A 2.5x fixed power even less so. This comes with the caveat you aren't using a 6moa pistol dot. A 2moa dot are common, and some 1 moa dot options are out there. Some people have eyes that don't work with red dots. I happen to see well, I can set a red dot to get a dim, very crisp dot, and I can shoot some really nice groups with them that are comparable to a 4x rifle scope. In the field, under good lighting conditions, I don't think the ultimate accuracy difference is much to talk about. Where more of the accuracy comes from a rifle scope is being able to see in those poor light conditions, and better see small things like limbs and grass that your naked eye can't see. One last tid bit on iron sights, they vary by a ton. A U-notch rear sight and a bead front has very little in common with a setup of aperture rear and globe front sight. There's not a ton you can do with the super basic sights a lot of lever guns come with, they are basically BB gun sights. They work good enough to 50-75 yards. With aperture sight and a globe front, you can get crazy good precision shooting from them, on par with a rifle scope. Unfortunately, as iron sights get more precise, the less usable they become in low light. I like something in the middle ground, an aperture with a decent sized eyehole, and a front blade painted orange. This is a perfectly adequate 150-200 yard shooting setup that is still usable in lower light, but it is no better than a red dot. I have guns set up with all three riflescopes, red dots, and iron sights. I don't use scout scopes though. For the do-all option, you can't beat a conventionally mounted riflescope, something like a 1.5-4x, 2-7x. Fixed powers can be ok, I just don't see any reason to use them. I say that as a person who has a fixed power scope mounted on a rifle right now. |
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What a red dot doesn't give you is the light gathering ability of a scope in the first 30 minutes and last 30 minutes of shooting light. You also can't pick out a hole in the timber or brush to shoot through without something magnified. I've got a 30mm tube Leupold 1.25x4 that has a lighted center dot in the conventional duplex reticle mounted on a Remington 760 30-06. Dot on and magnification all the way down and it is just as effective as a red dot at short range / moving target. Even with the little bit of magnification you can still use it both eyes open. Turn it up to 4 and you are still good to go as far out as a 45/70 is good for. It's quality glass in a 30mm tube so it gathers light well and allows you to take a shot in low light of dawn / dusk.  
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Originally Posted By dusty3030: What a red dot doesn't give you is the light gathering ability of a scope in the first 30 minutes and last 30 minutes of shooting light. You also can't pick out a hole in the timber or brush to shoot through without something magnified. I've got a 30mm tube Leupold 1.25x4 that has a lighted center dot in the conventional duplex reticle mounted on a Remington 760 30-06. Dot on and magnification all the way down and it is just as effective as a red dot at short range / moving target. Even with the little bit of magnification you can still use it both eyes open. Turn it up to 4 and you are still good to go as far out as a 45/70 is good for. It's quality glass in a 30mm tube so it gathers light well and allows you to take a shot in low light of dawn / dusk. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/58525/leupold_scope-3332153.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/58525/Remington_760-3332154.jpg This. |
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Having an illuminated reticle is a huge advantage up close or further out hunting and a good 1-4x in QR rings would be my choice. The Leupold fire dot 1-4 above is a great scope. I’ve used it on an AR for deer and it was perfect in lousy lighting conditions at OPs distances. Leupold made a 1.5-5x fire dot scout scope for a short while maybe 10-15 years ago? I was able to find one on eBay for my guide gun and like it quite a bit. FWIW when I was looking for that leupold 4 years ago, there weren’t any options for a scout scope with an illuminated reticle. Maybe there are now. ETA clarity. |
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I just ordered one of these to try on my 45/70. Sightron 1.75-5x |
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I have a regular Leupold 2.5x20 scope on an AR, it's fantastic. Super lightweight, great glass and I can shoot with both eyes open. I'm divided between buying another for my .44 levergun or putting it on there and putting an unused scope on the AR. Ashley Emerson makes a low profile mount that's supposed to work great with that scope; he also had a few rifles cut on the receiver so the scope is as low as it can get*. Right about 5" of eye relief so you might be able to get it forward of the hammer. Leupold also offers an IER scope in the Freedom line, iirc it's a 1.5-4x "Scout" though it has less relief than traditional scout scopes. I believe it has 6" of eye relief. *Cut gun, looks like the front ring goes in the rear sight notch though I believe this gun has been rebarreled. Attached File With his mount. Attached File Attached File If you go with a red dot there are a few companies that make minimalist low profile mounts so you can stay as low as possible. Midwest Industries makes a few short mounts that have a replacement peep sight at the rear and a short pic rail for mounting a red dot. |
When a coyote rapes your hamster don't come running to Kemp.
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Not a lever, but a 45/70: Attached File The Sightron 1-75-5x has an amazing field of view. The adjustments worked. Shot one low right at 50 yards, dialed the correction, shot two more: Attached File The eye relief is fine for shooting "thumpers" and it weighs under 13oz. I'll probably find some better/lighter rings after deer season, but there was plenty of room to mount it with low SWFA rings I had in the spare parts bin. Attached File |
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Man, I'm really liking the Sightron S1 1.75-5x. Did a final zero check. 3 rounds offhand at 25 yards. Attached File It's sooooo easy to get behind, I love it. A lit reticle wouldn't suck, but I love the sub-13oz weight more than I'll miss the illumination |
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Originally Posted By SpeyRod: The Leupold fire dot reticule in a 1- 4 would probably be idea. Not sure if they have a eer model. They used to have a 1.5-5 eer fire dot but I think they discontinued it quite a while ago before the lever gun craze. I’m suprised they haven’t brought it back. I found one on eBay 5 or so years ago and put it on my 45-70. ETA dang, didn’t realize this is an old thread I had already posted the same info in lol. |
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RDS on the .357. I’ve thought about a 1-4 or something but with this cartridge it will be 100yds and in, more likely 50 and in. Attached File |
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Mounted this Inexpensive Leupold VX freedom. Haven't shot it yet. I also have the VX patrol shown earlier on another rifle and love it but wanted to try the freedom for the light weight. I have qd rings so I'll also try it on the .450 marlin. I like LPVOs. Attached File |
Ohio weather STILL sucks, even more!
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I guess I’m a fudd but I like the scout scope setups. Run the Leupold FX-II on my lever guns. Both eyes open. Attached File |
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Attached File The Sightron S1 is still going strong on my 45/70. |
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Originally Posted By PortaJohnPicasso: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/543436/c4eb958a-821e-48d2-bfe7-63db8363e4a4-1_a-3668676.JPG The Sightron S1 is still going strong on my 45/70. I dig your setup. And, nice deer. |
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I use an Trijicon RMR on my 1895 Guide Gun. It's a very handy setup. As pictured with my hand loads I can knock the 66% IPSC steel at 100 yards with no problem in field conditions/not on a bench. Attached File Attached File |
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-- Lieutenant General Sir Adrian Carton de Wiart
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