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Link Posted: 3/18/2010 5:17:24 PM EDT
Again some excellent advice from the grey man. Amox, cipro, doxy, TMP/SMX, flagyl are all on the walmart $4 list.

I'd second the choice for Amox over PCN. Better dosing schedule, better tasting (in liquid form), reasonable bioavailability.

Re MRSA - TMP/SMX is a reasonable oral alternative and cheap.

Re anaerobic infections - I'd choose flagyl over clinda. Clinda doesn't have reliable activity against b frag - hence clinda above and flagyl below the diaphragm. Flagyl also can tx amebiasis, trich, giardia, c. diff


Link Posted: 3/18/2010 5:31:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2010 5:34:09 PM EDT by Rich_V]
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Maybe you medical guys can school me on the difference between Doxycycline and Oxytetracycline? The Oxy is another extremely common farm antibiotic and can be had pretty cheap in large quantities, though not nearly as cheaply as Penn G.


Never seen that used on a human being.

A chemist might have to answer that one.


OK chemist here.

Oxytetracycline is not FDA approved so not used in the USA. It is inferior to Doxy since Oxytetracycline oral absorption is food dependent (variable exposure based on when & what you eat last) and Doxy is not.

You didn't want to know the chemical difference I assume?

PS glad the Doc's showed up, a chemist makes these drugs but I sure as hell don't want to play Doctor.
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 5:36:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Maybe you medical guys can school me on the difference between Doxycycline and Oxytetracycline? The Oxy is another extremely common farm antibiotic and can be had pretty cheap in large quantities, though not nearly as cheaply as Penn G.


Never seen that used on a human being.

A chemist might have to answer that one.


OK chemist here.

Oxytetracycline is not FDA approved so not used in the USA. It is inferior to Doxy since Oxytetracycline oral absorption is food dependent (variable exposure based on when & what you eat last) and Doxy is not.

You didn't want to know the chemical difference I assume?

PS glad the Doc's showed up, a chemist makes these drugs but I sure as hell don't want to play Doctor.

What about an Oxytetracycline drip? Any farm kid knows the dosage for swine, and I could run an IV if I had to as long as I knew the correct dosage.
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 5:38:10 PM EDT
Cefdinir. 300mg twice daily for 10 days will take care of a LOT if infections, but you really need a flouroquinolone (Levaquin, Cipro) on hand also.
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 5:57:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By El-cid:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Penicillin, Amoxicillin, Ciprofloxacin, and Vancomycin. If what you got can't be covered by one of those, you're pretty much fucked.


You forgot one, Doxycycline.


The Doxy is a must.

The Penicillin and Amoxicillin are redundant... delete one of those two. I'd agree with the Cipro... and don't waste your money on oral Vancomycin. It's extremely expensive, and has no systemic absorption... it's used almost exclusively to treat resistant C. difficile infection. I'd almost agree with IV vancomycin... but that's used almost exclusively for MRSA, and respresents a level of complexity and expertise that's probably a bit unrealistic for SHTF.

If you're worried about MRSA, Doxy covers MRSA... and if you were really worried, you could substitute Clindamycin for the Flagyl in your list. It would end up being more expensive, but Clindamycin also covers staph in addition to anaerobes.

You're probably right on the Amoxicillin, I don't really know for sure. I do know that Penicillin can be had stupid cheap in pill, powder, or solution for stupid cheap from most farm supply places and it's usually formulated for long term storage. As for IV Vancomycin, I was taught how to run an IV by the Army but they didn't teach me shit about how to setup a Vancomycin drip or what dosage to use etc. Based on my family farm experience I could probably set up a Penicillin drip if I absolutely had to based on the mg/lb dosage for swine. The whole fish antibiotics thing is news to me, and if they are indeed suitable for human use in a pinch, it's good to know. That means I probably need to learn about proper dosages for something other than Penicillin and Oxytetracycline.


OK here is my experience with fish antibiotics. I purchased the following from C&Q management or Thomas labs via Amazon.com
Identifying the manufacturer was done by comparing the form provided (capsule or pill) color scheme and markings for each antibiotic by a web search. In each case a photo was found from the manufacturer that matched exactly with what was provided as 'fish antibiotic'. This is not surprising since all of these are now generic and cheap to purchase wholesale. The two sources mentioned simply buy in bulk, repackage and sell direct for use on aquarium fish - perfectly legal under current law.

Note all of the dose forms below are those standard for human dosing

Tetracycline 250 mg made by Teva
Ciprofloxacin 500 mg made by Ranbaxy
Doxycycline 100 mg made by West-Ward
Cephalexin 500 mg made by West-Ward
Metronidazole 250 & 500 mg made by Pliva
Erythromycin Sterate 250 mg made by Abbott (enteric coated)
Amoxicillin 500 mg made by Davo
Bactrim 800 x 160 mg made by Interpharm

My fish now live secure in the knowledge that come SHTF they are covered.
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 6:00:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Maybe you medical guys can school me on the difference between Doxycycline and Oxytetracycline? The Oxy is another extremely common farm antibiotic and can be had pretty cheap in large quantities, though not nearly as cheaply as Penn G.


Never seen that used on a human being.

A chemist might have to answer that one.


OK chemist here.

Oxytetracycline is not FDA approved so not used in the USA. It is inferior to Doxy since Oxytetracycline oral absorption is food dependent (variable exposure based on when & what you eat last) and Doxy is not.

You didn't want to know the chemical difference I assume?

PS glad the Doc's showed up, a chemist makes these drugs but I sure as hell don't want to play Doctor.

What about an Oxytetracycline drip? Any farm kid knows the dosage for swine, and I could run an IV if I had to as long as I knew the correct dosage.


Why would you consider oxy when doxy is readily available, cheap and has great oral bioavailability?
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 7:16:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
If you're asking about a minimalist set of drugs to keep for a SHTF scenario, my wish list would be as follows. This is the stuff I'd take myself if I were hiking off into the middle of nowhere... and these are chosen with an eye towards cost savings.

Cipro: Great for most gram-negatives (think intestinal flora). Covers invasive diarrheas (salmonella, shigella, E-coli), and UTIs. NOT a good choice for pneumonia, as it has very little gram-positive coverage compared to the "respiratory quinolones" (Levaquin, Avelox, etc). Great oral absorption.


Doxycycline: Covers a lot of atypical bugs, including all the Zoonses you're likely to pick up from ticks out in the woods (Lyme, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, etc). Also treats Cat Scratch Disease (Cipro also works). Doxy is also an excellent drug for Pneumonia. The only downside is that it makes you photosensitive... so stay out of the sun. Doxycycline Hyclate is also dirt cheap... don't buy the Doxycycline Monohydrate... that's VERY expensive.


Amoxicillin: Dirt-cheap gram-positive coverage. Covers strep, and can be a fair choice for sinuses. Will even treat the occasional UTI (though augmentin or ampicillin are probably preferred... the former is very expensive, and the latter is dirt cheap and may be an acceptable substitute for Amoxicillin). Also treats even partially-resistant pneumonias and ear infections in high doses.


Flagyl: Covers anaerobes. Several posters have mentioned it being used in conjunction with other antibiotics for Diverticulitis, and they are correct. Levaquin/Flagyl is a common cocktail for Diverticulitis... but your Amoxicillin/Cipro/Flagyl would be acceptable as well. you have to add the Amoxicillin to the Cipro because Cipro lacks the gram-positive coverage of a "respiratory quinolones" like Levaquin.


If I had to cut it down to the bare minimum, and include only oral antibiotics, that's what I'd take.


So you fancy yourself some kind of expert?

I keep forgetting to research these ABx threads and keeping some on hand. An ounce of prevention and all that.
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 7:29:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Maybe you medical guys can school me on the difference between Doxycycline and Oxytetracycline? The Oxy is another extremely common farm antibiotic and can be had pretty cheap in large quantities, though not nearly as cheaply as Penn G.


Never seen that used on a human being.

A chemist might have to answer that one.


OK chemist here.

Oxytetracycline is not FDA approved so not used in the USA. It is inferior to Doxy since Oxytetracycline oral absorption is food dependent (variable exposure based on when & what you eat last) and Doxy is not.

You didn't want to know the chemical difference I assume?

PS glad the Doc's showed up, a chemist makes these drugs but I sure as hell don't want to play Doctor.

What about an Oxytetracycline drip? Any farm kid knows the dosage for swine, and I could run an IV if I had to as long as I knew the correct dosage.


Why would you consider oxy when doxy is readily available, cheap and has great oral bioavailability?
Because I can get Penicillin and Oxy in 50 gallon drums that will store in a cellar for 25 years.

Link Posted: 3/18/2010 7:58:20 PM EDT
tagged for very useful info
Link Posted: 3/18/2010 8:24:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
Maybe you medical guys can school me on the difference between Doxycycline and Oxytetracycline? The Oxy is another extremely common farm antibiotic and can be had pretty cheap in large quantities, though not nearly as cheaply as Penn G.


Never seen that used on a human being.

A chemist might have to answer that one.


OK chemist here.

Oxytetracycline is not FDA approved so not used in the USA. It is inferior to Doxy since Oxytetracycline oral absorption is food dependent (variable exposure based on when & what you eat last) and Doxy is not.

You didn't want to know the chemical difference I assume?

PS glad the Doc's showed up, a chemist makes these drugs but I sure as hell don't want to play Doctor.

What about an Oxytetracycline drip? Any farm kid knows the dosage for swine, and I could run an IV if I had to as long as I knew the correct dosage.


Why would you consider oxy when doxy is readily available, cheap and has great oral bioavailability?
Because I can get Penicillin and Oxy in 50 gallon drums that will store in a cellar for 25 years.



OK then:
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––­––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Oxytetracycline


NON-FDA APPROVED USES
Granuloma inguinale caused by Calymmatobacterium granulomatis
Lymphogranuloma venereum caused by Chlamydia species; nongonococcal urethritis; chancroid caused by H. ducreyi
Psittacosis caused by Chlamydia psittaci
Q fever (Coxiella burnetii)
Rickettsial pox; typhus infections
Rocky mountain spotted fever
Relapsing fever caused by Borrelia recurrentis
Infections caused by B. bacilliformis
Yaws caused by T. pertenue
Infections caused by M. pneumoniae
Brucellosis
Infections caused by Yersinia pestis and Francisella tularensis
Soft tissue infections
Vibrio comma and V. fetus infections
In PCN-allergic pts: infections caused by N. gonorrhoeae, T. pallidum and T. pertenue (syphilis and yaws), L. monocytogenes, Clostridium species, B. anthracis, Fusobacterium fusiforme (Vincent's infection), Actinomyces species.

USUAL ADULT DOSING
Oral: 0.5-1.0 gm PO four times daily.
IM: 0.5-1.0 Gm/day IM q12h.

ADVERSE DRUG REACTIONS

COMMON

GI intolerance (dose-related)
Stained & deformed teeth––children up to 8 yrs
Diarrhea
Phlebitis w/ IV & pain w/ IM injection

OCCASIONAL

Negative nitrogen balance & increased azotemia w/ renal failure
Hepatitis
Esophageal ulcerations
Candidiasis

DRUG INTERACTIONS
Digoxin: may result in increased digoxin concentration
Penicillins: in vitro antagonism when co-administered. Bactericidal effect of penicillins may be diminished in vivo. Avoid co-administration.
Urinary alkalinizers (sodium lactate, sodium bicarbonate): increased urinary excretion of tetracyclines (by approx. 24-65%) resulting in lower serum concentration. Monitor for therapeutic efficacy.
Polyvalent metal cations (aluminum, zinc, magnesium, iron, calcium [milk]) : polyvalent metal cations form an insoluble chelate with tetracyclines resulting in decrease absorption and serum level of tetracyclines. Separate administration by 4 hours.
Bismuth salts (bismuth subsalicylate, Pepto-Bismol): bismuth salts chelate tetracyclines resulting in a decrease absorption of tetracycline. Administer bismuth 2 hours after tetracycline.
Warfarin: may increase hypoprothrombinemia. Monitor INR closely.


SPECTRUM
Aerobic gram-negative bacilli
Acinetobacter baumannii (calcoaceticus) 2nd line
Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans 2nd line

Anaerobic gram-positive bacilli
Actinomyces israelii 2nd line
Actinomyces naeslundii 2nd line
Actinomyces odontolyticus 2nd line
Arachnia propionica 2nd line

Miscellaneous
Afipia felis 1st line

Mycobacteria
Mycobacterium ulcerans 2nd line


PHARMACOKINETIC PARAMETERS

Absorption: 60%
Metabolism and Excretion: Only small amount metabolized in the liver. Significant amount excreted via biliary route. 60% excreted unchanged in the urine.
Protein Binding: 27-35%
Cmax, Cmin, and AUC: 4 mcg/ml after 500 mg PO dose administration.
T1/2: 6-10 hrs
Distribution: Poor CNS penetration. Good biliary concentrations. Inadequate middle ear fluid concentration.

Link Posted: 3/21/2010 9:54:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlackFox:
If it's deemed kosher, I can post the portion of the wilderness and travel medicine guide that deals with antibiotics. I believe the URL was from Adventure Medical, but I don't want to post copyrighted material if it wasn't intended to be shared.....


If you're up for this, I'd be interested in the info. I just found - and ordered - a used copy of that book but wouldn't mind a jump on the info since, um, my fish seem a little under the weather and I'm getting ready to order some meds soon. IM me if more appropriate.
Link Posted: 3/21/2010 10:43:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KeithC:
Originally Posted By BlackFox:
If it's deemed kosher, I can post the portion of the wilderness and travel medicine guide that deals with antibiotics. I believe the URL was from Adventure Medical, but I don't want to post copyrighted material if it wasn't intended to be shared.....


If you're up for this, I'd be interested in the info. I just found - and ordered - a used copy of that book but wouldn't mind a jump on the info since, um, my fish seem a little under the weather and I'm getting ready to order some meds soon. IM me if more appropriate.



BlackFox, I would like this info also.

Link Posted: 3/21/2010 10:44:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2010 10:45:37 PM EDT by Unique1]
For the life of me I wish this thread were tacked. TONS of very good info found within. Thanks to the contributors!

ETA Blackfox, me too!! (please)
Link Posted: 3/21/2010 10:51:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ERNURSE:
I Keep Bactrim DS and Amoxicillin on hand along with Cipro, just my personal preferences, and experience.


Add Cephalexin (Keflex) to this list and you're good.

Link Posted: 3/22/2010 9:58:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By clanford:
Originally Posted By ERNURSE:
I Keep Bactrim DS and Amoxicillin on hand along with Cipro, just my personal preferences, and experience.


Add Cephalexin (Keflex) to this list and you're good.


I've had a few bouts of diverticulaitus (sp?) over the years, and this is the only thing that would touch it. If I eat right and add fiber I'm good to go. But this is a MUST for my preps.
Link Posted: 3/22/2010 11:21:56 AM EDT
MODS: I believe this material is okay to post, but please IM me or delete if not. Adventure Medical posted it on their website as a publically downloadable pdf. I'm just putting it here for convenience sake. It's also hard to put a hard-copy book into an electronic portable device .

Source: A Comprehensive Guide to Wilderness & Travel Medicine
by Eric A. Weiss, MD
Amazon Link

ANTIBIOTICS


Some of the antibiotics listed below have similar uses and overallping spectrums of antibacterial activity. Before departing on your trip, discuss with your physician which antiobiotics best suit your needs.

Azithromycin (Zithromax) 250mg capsules
This is a broad-spectrum, erythromycin-type antibiotic. It is more potent than erythromycin, causes fewer side-effects, and only has to be taken once a day for five days.
Indications: Tonsillitis, ear infections, bronchitis, pneumonia, sinusitis, traveler's diarrhea, skin infections.
Dosage: Take two capsules on the first day, followed by one capsule a day for four more days.
WARNING: Do not use if you are allergic to erythromycin. Do use simultaneously with the antihistamines Seldane or Hismanal.


Amoxicillin Clavulanate (Augmentin) 500mg tablets
A broad-spectrum penicillin-type antibiotic.
Indications: Bite wounds, skin infections, pneumonia, urinary tract infections, bronchitis, tonsillitis and sinusitis.
Dosage: One tablet every eight hours, for seven to ten days.
WARNING: Do not use if you are allergic to penicillin. Stop use if rash develops. May cause diarrhea.


Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) 500mg capsules
An excellent antibiotic for traveler's diarrhea and dysentary.
Indications: Diarrhea, pneumonia, urinary tract infections, bone infections.
Dosage: One tablet twice a day, for three days. For kidney infections, pneumonia and bone infections, treat for seven to ten days.
WARNING: Not recommended for patients less than 18 years old or pregnant or nursing women. Adverse effects, although uncommon, have included nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain.


Erythromycin 250mg/500mg tablets
An alternative antibiotic for individuals allergic to penecillin.
Indications: Bronchitis, tonsillitis, pneumonia, skin infections, sinus infections, ear, and eye infections.
Dosage: 250-500mg every six hours, for seven to ten days.
WARNING: May cause upset stomach, vomiting, and/or diarrhea. Take with food.


Cefuroxime (Ceftin) or Cephalexin (Keflex) 250 to 500 mg tablets
Broad-spectrum antibiotics which can be substituted for Augmentin, in individuals allergic to penecillin.
Indications: Skin infections, bronchitis, urinary tract infections, tonsillitis, middle ear infections, some bone infections, bite wounds, tonsillitis, dental infections, sinusitis.
Dosage: 250-500mg every six hours.
WARNING: Avoid or use with caution in individuals with penecillin allergy, since 5% of the people may be cross-reactive.


Metronidazole (Flagyl) 250 mg tablets
Indications: Intra-abdominal infections including peritonitis and appendicitis, dental infections.
Dosage: Intra-abdominal infections: two tablets every six hours if the patient is not vomiting..
WARNING: Do not drink alcohol while taking this medication. The interaction will cause severe abdominal pain, nausea, and vomiting. May cause unpleasant metallic taste. Do not use during pregnancy.


Nitazoxanide (alinia) 500 mg tablets
Indications: Giardia and Cryptosporidiosis.
Dosage: The adult dose is 500 mg twice a day for three days. The dose in children is 100 mb twice a day for three days.


Trimethodprim / Sulfamethoxazole
Common brand names include Septra DS and Bactrim DS. Each tablet contains 80 mg trimethoprim and 400 mg sulfamethoxazole.
Indications: Urinary tract or kidney infections, ear and sinus infections, and bronchitis. Can be substituted for ciprofloxacin to treat traveler's diarrhea or dysentary. It is cheaper than ciproflaxin, but some bacteria which cause dysentary have developed resistance to this drug.
Dosage: One table twice a day for five days for diarrhea and dsyentery. Other infections may require a ten-day course.
WARNING: Do not use in individuals allergic to sulfa drugs. Trimethoprim 200 mg alone, twice a day, may be substituted for treatment of diarrhea and dysentery. Discontinue use at the first sign of skin rash or any adverse reaction. Do not use in pregnancy.


Levofloxacin (Levaquin) 500mg tablets
Indications: Bronchitis, pneumonia, urinary tract infections, sinusitis, skin infections, anthrax.
Dosage: 500 mg every 24 hours for 7-14 days.


Cortisporin Otic Suspension
Indications: External ear infections ("Swimmer's Ear").
Dosage: Four drops instilled into the affected ear four times a day.
WARNING: Discontinue using if a rash develops or the condition worsens.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please forgive any typos (and let me know about them) - I manually transcribed this.
Link Posted: 3/23/2010 9:05:29 AM EDT
By the way, if I understand our new health care gift from our overlords - imported medications are about to spike up quite a bit next year (if not sooner).

GD Link to healthcare timeline

Provisions going into effect in 2011

Impose annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs ($2.5 billion for 2011, $2.8 billion per year for 2012 and 2013, $3.0 billion per year for 2014 through 2016, $4.0 billion for 2017, $4.1 billion for 2018, and $2.8 billion for 2019 and thereafter)
Link Posted: 3/24/2010 2:57:31 AM EDT
Consider natural antibiotics as well.

Oil of oregano is a natural antibiotic and anti-parasite. It's strong stuff, usually comes as a liquid and has a dropper.

Colloidial Silver is another natural anti-biotic and can be used to purify water. Also a liquid.

Both should be used sparingly as they are quite strong and widely available without perscription (for now) in many health food stores.
Link Posted: 3/25/2010 6:39:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Colloidial Silver is another natural anti-biotic and can be used to purify water. Also a liquid.


Link Posted: 3/25/2010 7:26:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ipsilateral_7:
Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Colloidial Silver is another natural anti-biotic and can be used to purify water. Also a liquid.


http://www.ananova.com/images/web/1211606.jpg


Yep... argyria for the win.
Link Posted: 3/25/2010 7:31:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
If you're asking about a minimalist set of drugs to keep for a SHTF scenario, my wish list would be as follows. This is the stuff I'd take myself if I were hiking off into the middle of nowhere... and these are chosen with an eye towards cost savings.

Cipro: Great for most gram-negatives (think intestinal flora). Covers invasive diarrheas (salmonella, shigella, E-coli), and UTIs. NOT a good choice for pneumonia, as it has very little gram-positive coverage compared to the "respiratory quinolones" (Levaquin, Avelox, etc). Great oral absorption.


Doxycycline: Covers a lot of atypical bugs, including all the Zoonses you're likely to pick up from ticks out in the woods (Lyme, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, etc). Also treats Cat Scratch Disease (Cipro also works). Doxy is also an excellent drug for Pneumonia. The only downside is that it makes you photosensitive... so stay out of the sun. Doxycycline Hyclate is also dirt cheap... don't buy the Doxycycline Monohydrate... that's VERY expensive.


Amoxicillin: Dirt-cheap gram-positive coverage. Covers strep, and can be a fair choice for sinuses. Will even treat the occasional UTI (though augmentin or ampicillin are probably preferred... the former is very expensive, and the latter is dirt cheap and may be an acceptable substitute for Amoxicillin). Also treats even partially-resistant pneumonias and ear infections in high doses.


Flagyl: Covers anaerobes. Several posters have mentioned it being used in conjunction with other antibiotics for Diverticulitis, and they are correct. Levaquin/Flagyl is a common cocktail for Diverticulitis... but your Amoxicillin/Cipro/Flagyl would be acceptable as well. you have to add the Amoxicillin to the Cipro because Cipro lacks the gram-positive coverage of a "respiratory quinolones" like Levaquin.


If I had to cut it down to the bare minimum, and include only oral antibiotics, that's what I'd take.

Will you write me scripts for each of those, doc?



j/k... Thanks for the info. I've been meaning to get some for our stash too.
Link Posted: 3/26/2010 11:29:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2010 11:30:31 PM EDT by CLIP67]
Originally Posted By ipsilateral_7:
Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Colloidial Silver is another natural anti-biotic and can be used to purify water. Also a liquid.


http://www.ananova.com/images/web/1211606.jpg


Reading is fundamental:

"Both should be used sparingly as they are quite strong and widely available without perscription (for now) in many health food stores."


You'd have to take in quite a bit to become the blue-man. You wouldn't do that with Rx anti-biotics and you shouldn't with natural stuff either. Comon sense rules the day.

Link Posted: 3/27/2010 3:25:19 PM EDT
Can you find me any data on what level of exposure to colloidal silver will cause Argyia? Cause I can't find anything. Nor has it's use been shown effecitve at treating anything.

Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Originally Posted By ipsilateral_7:
Originally Posted By CLIP67:
Colloidial Silver is another natural anti-biotic and can be used to purify water. Also a liquid.


http://www.ananova.com/images/web/1211606.jpg


Reading is fundamental:

"Both should be used sparingly as they are quite strong and widely available without perscription (for now) in many health food stores."


You'd have to take in quite a bit to become the blue-man. You wouldn't do that with Rx anti-biotics and you shouldn't with natural stuff either. Comon sense rules the day.



Link Posted: 5/7/2010 1:24:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 2:00:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
If you're asking about a minimalist set of drugs to keep for a SHTF scenario, my wish list would be as follows. This is the stuff I'd take myself if I were hiking off into the middle of nowhere... and these are chosen with an eye towards cost savings.

Cipro: Great for most gram-negatives (think intestinal flora). Covers invasive diarrheas (salmonella, shigella, E-coli), and UTIs. NOT a good choice for pneumonia, as it has very little gram-positive coverage compared to the "respiratory quinolones" (Levaquin, Avelox, etc). Great oral absorption.


Doxycycline: Covers a lot of atypical bugs, including all the Zoonses you're likely to pick up from ticks out in the woods (Lyme, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, etc). Also treats Cat Scratch Disease (Cipro also works). Doxy is also an excellent drug for Pneumonia. The only downside is that it makes you photosensitive... so stay out of the sun. Doxycycline Hyclate is also dirt cheap... don't buy the Doxycycline Monohydrate... that's VERY expensive.


Amoxicillin: Dirt-cheap gram-positive coverage. Covers strep, and can be a fair choice for sinuses. Will even treat the occasional UTI (though augmentin or ampicillin are probably preferred... the former is very expensive, and the latter is dirt cheap and may be an acceptable substitute for Amoxicillin). Also treats even partially-resistant pneumonias and ear infections in high doses.


Flagyl: Covers anaerobes. Several posters have mentioned it being used in conjunction with other antibiotics for Diverticulitis, and they are correct. Levaquin/Flagyl is a common cocktail for Diverticulitis... but your Amoxicillin/Cipro/Flagyl would be acceptable as well. you have to add the Amoxicillin to the Cipro because Cipro lacks the gram-positive coverage of a "respiratory quinolones" like Levaquin.


If I had to cut it down to the bare minimum, and include only oral antibiotics, that's what I'd take.



Would be very interested on your thoughts in regards to adding Cephalexin to your list for treatment of wounds.
Staving off infection from lacerations, punctures etc.
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 2:11:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
If you're asking about a minimalist set of drugs to keep for a SHTF scenario, my wish list would be as follows. This is the stuff I'd take myself if I were hiking off into the middle of nowhere... and these are chosen with an eye towards cost savings.

Cipro: Great for most gram-negatives (think intestinal flora). Covers invasive diarrheas (salmonella, shigella, E-coli), and UTIs. NOT a good choice for pneumonia, as it has very little gram-positive coverage compared to the "respiratory quinolones" (Levaquin, Avelox, etc). Great oral absorption.


Doxycycline: Covers a lot of atypical bugs, including all the Zoonses you're likely to pick up from ticks out in the woods (Lyme, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, etc). Also treats Cat Scratch Disease (Cipro also works). Doxy is also an excellent drug for Pneumonia. The only downside is that it makes you photosensitive... so stay out of the sun. Doxycycline Hyclate is also dirt cheap... don't buy the Doxycycline Monohydrate... that's VERY expensive.


Amoxicillin: Dirt-cheap gram-positive coverage. Covers strep, and can be a fair choice for sinuses. Will even treat the occasional UTI (though augmentin or ampicillin are probably preferred... the former is very expensive, and the latter is dirt cheap and may be an acceptable substitute for Amoxicillin). Also treats even partially-resistant pneumonias and ear infections in high doses.


Flagyl: Covers anaerobes. Several posters have mentioned it being used in conjunction with other antibiotics for Diverticulitis, and they are correct. Levaquin/Flagyl is a common cocktail for Diverticulitis... but your Amoxicillin/Cipro/Flagyl would be acceptable as well. you have to add the Amoxicillin to the Cipro because Cipro lacks the gram-positive coverage of a "respiratory quinolones" like Levaquin.


If I had to cut it down to the bare minimum, and include only oral antibiotics, that's what I'd take.



Would be very interested on your thoughts in regards to adding Cephalexin to your list for treatment of wounds.
Staving off infection from lacerations, punctures etc.


I've been Rx'd that stuff for all kinds of wounds and procedures.
Particularly abcess type indications.
Seems like a goto for that sort of thing.
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 2:13:30 AM EDT
Get This:
(but get the latest year, obviously)



Link Posted: 5/7/2010 3:45:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2010 3:49:15 AM EDT by TheGrayMan]
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Get This:
(but get the latest year, obviously)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31lDSlSBeuL._SL500_.jpg



Ah, Sanford-and-Son... a classic.

ETA: to answer the post above P-Smith's... Keflex (Cephalexin) is just more gram-positive coverage, like the amoxicillin. It may cover a bit more, but it's a beta-lactam antibiotic, just like the penicillins. There isn't much difference in the coverage spectrum from an amino-penicillin (like Amoxicillin) and a first-generation cephalosporin (Keflex). In fact, a bacteria resistant to penicillins is likely to be resistant to a first-gen cephalosporin as well... since the beta-lactamase enzyme that protects the bacteria will attack the beta-lactam ring that both antibiotics possess.
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 4:02:47 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 4:04:08 AM EDT
So is there a consensus on the shelf life of these under ideal conditions?
Link Posted: 5/7/2010 6:32:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2010 6:33:10 PM EDT by Dru]
Tag for cutting and pasting some of this info into a chart
Link Posted: 5/8/2010 1:11:29 AM EDT
Duggan,
here is a link where you can get Zithro......just received mine yesterday from them. https://alldaychemist.com/906_Zithromax-500-mg

A BIG thank you to everyone who posted information for those of us not trained in the medical profession. I salute all of you who share your knowledge with us, not just about this topic but other in
the SF. I hope in the future I will have gained the necessary training and experience to post helpful information for others as all of you have. Again, thanks everyone!! Forgive me if I didn't post this correctly?!
Link Posted: 5/8/2010 6:01:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:

ETA: to answer the post above P-Smith's... Keflex (Cephalexin) is just more gram-positive coverage, like the amoxicillin. It may cover a bit more, but it's a beta-lactam antibiotic, just like the penicillins. There isn't much difference in the coverage spectrum from an amino-penicillin (like Amoxicillin) and a first-generation cephalosporin (Keflex). In fact, a bacteria resistant to penicillins is likely to be resistant to a first-gen cephalosporin as well... since the beta-lactamase enzyme that protects the bacteria will attack the beta-lactam ring that both antibiotics possess.


Redundant, got it.

Thanks GrayMan
Link Posted: 5/8/2010 10:44:44 PM EDT
There is some good info in this thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.
Link Posted: 5/9/2010 12:17:43 PM EDT
Raw Crushed Garlic
Link Posted: 5/9/2010 6:35:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Duggan:
If only they sold Zithromax for fish.


That and Prozac.
Link Posted: 6/5/2010 4:11:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By houstonmedic:
Originally Posted By Duggan:
If only they sold Zithromax for fish.


That and Prozac.

tag
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 2:45:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SirSqueeboo:
So is there a consensus on the shelf life of these under ideal conditions?

Or less-than-ideal conditions?

Seems kinda useless to stock up on antibiotics if they are useless/toxic in six months.
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 5:24:57 AM EDT
Store them in air tight containers in your freezer and they will last 10 years.
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 9:20:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Store them in air tight containers in your freezer and they will last 10 years.


Does that apply to all of the ones you listed, or just some? Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 11:25:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Get This:
(but get the latest year, obviously)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31lDSlSBeuL._SL500_.jpg



Ah, Sanford-and-Son... a classic.

ETA: to answer the post above P-Smith's... Keflex (Cephalexin) is just more gram-positive coverage, like the amoxicillin. It may cover a bit more, but it's a beta-lactam antibiotic, just like the penicillins. There isn't much difference in the coverage spectrum from an amino-penicillin (like Amoxicillin) and a first-generation cephalosporin (Keflex). In fact, a bacteria resistant to penicillins is likely to be resistant to a first-gen cephalosporin as well... since the beta-lactamase enzyme that protects the bacteria will attack the beta-lactam ring that both antibiotics possess.


Sanford's is a classic, but I like the John Hopkins guide a bit betterAmazon link They also have a free website you can use with a computer (can't use it with smart phone)
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 6:32:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By optionstrader:
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Store them in air tight containers in your freezer and they will last 10 years.


Does that apply to all of the ones you listed, or just some? Thanks.


All of the oral antibiotics will store well if kept dry, out of light and as cold as you can get them. I am unaware of any (oral) antibiotics that have less than the default 1 year shelf life. Most would be fine for several years if stored in an airtight container in the dark. Stored at -10 or so will at least triple the shelf life. I have some going on 20 years that I know for a fact are still OK.
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 8:42:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By optionstrader:
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Store them in air tight containers in your freezer and they will last 10 years.


Does that apply to all of the ones you listed, or just some? Thanks.


All of the oral antibiotics will store well if kept dry, out of light and as cold as you can get them. I am unaware of any (oral) antibiotics that have less than the default 1 year shelf life. Most would be fine for several years if stored in an airtight container in the dark. Stored at -10 or so will at least triple the shelf life. I have some going on 20 years that I know for a fact are still OK.


I'm curious how you know theyre ok. And by ok to you simply mean non-toxic? Or are they still efficacious?
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 8:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2010 4:23:29 PM EDT by Rich_V]
Originally Posted By ipsilateral_7:
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Originally Posted By optionstrader:
Originally Posted By Rich_V:
Store them in air tight containers in your freezer and they will last 10 years.


Does that apply to all of the ones you listed, or just some? Thanks.


All of the oral antibiotics will store well if kept dry, out of light and as cold as you can get them. I am unaware of any (oral) antibiotics that have less than the default 1 year shelf life. Most would be fine for several years if stored in an airtight container in the dark. Stored at -10 or so will at least triple the shelf life. I have some going on 20 years that I know for a fact are still OK.


I'm curious how you know theyre ok. And by ok to you simply mean non-toxic? Or are they still efficacious?


Well since 1981 I have been designing and synthesizing new drugs at a major pharma company (first ten years antibiotics). Out of curiosity I did an HPLC and NMR analysis on an old batch of pen-g I had, no significant decomposition observed.
Link Posted: 6/10/2010 9:12:17 PM EDT
Tag.
Link Posted: 6/11/2010 2:53:35 PM EDT
Not many people would have the expertise much less the facilities to do that type of testing. What others have you tested to see their degredation?

Link Posted: 6/11/2010 4:20:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/11/2010 4:35:32 PM EDT by Rich_V]
Originally Posted By ipsilateral_7:
Not many people would have the expertise much less the facilities to do that type of testing. What others have you tested to see their degredation?



Of my own personal stash? That was the only one and I did it more on a lark than out of concern.

Of all the classes of antibiotics the beta lactams (penicillins) are at or near the bottom for chemical stability. The fact that this sample had little degradation speaks strongly to how well antibiotics (and most pharmaceuticals in general) will last if stored under the best conditions. Had it been sitting on a shelf in less than an air tight container the result would be much different.

Remember to keep in perspective what we are discussing here, storing pharmaceuticals for a worst case scenario - no access to proper medical care in a emergency. This includes chronic life threatening diseases like diabetes.
No one, I hope, is amassing stockpiles to be used under normal circumstances. If your sick go to the doctor for treatment not a best guess from your stash.

The hard part of practicing medicine is not deciding what drug to prescribe, it's deciding what disease the patient has. That, my friend, is what all that training is for and what you and I don't have.
Link Posted: 6/11/2010 5:14:16 PM EDT
CDC and DOD routinely test drugs for long term stability. And they won't tell you the answers, since they only apply with 100% certanty to that batch of drugs satored under the conditions they were stored in. In general it seems they almost never find stuff to go bad (go bad, being defined as reaching 90%of labeled strength). This is all sealed products in conditioned air or ref storage with continious monitoring.

As far as antibiotics, the common ones stored in conditioned space are cipro, amoxicillin, and doxycycline, most of the other stuff in in refregerated storage. Most states have 3-5 day supplies of these drugs uinder their control for rapid release to medical, public health, and first responders. One state stores them in a locked cabinet at all of the state trooper stations.
Link Posted: 6/11/2010 9:20:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Psmith:
Get This:
(but get the latest year, obviously)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31lDSlSBeuL._SL500_.jpg



One of my favorite intensivists used to say in his thick Irish accent "my recurring nightmare is that I'll be laying sick in some ICU bed someday, and I'll look up, there'll be an intern looking through a copy of Sanford's, and then, at that moment, I'll know I'm foooked."

Useful book though.
Link Posted: 6/11/2010 9:27:27 PM EDT
get drugs to deal with parasites....they will be much more likely when TSHTF.
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