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Originally Posted By mmrpm: I hope you get a chance to shoot it this weekend on full auto amphibian. I'm on list as well and hoping it will be a big improvement over the CMMG. Thank you for all you your time posing so much great info, you really helped me tune my uppers. Picture below is what I tested. Note that I only tested with the K lifter. I was told that it should be fine now so will see when I get it back. I didn't have time to test it more thoroughly and I guess it is a good thing I didn't since it was determined that they missed something on the units that were shipped out. When i get it back, I will test unsuppressed as well as some factory ammo....even though I shoot 99% of the time my reloads.  |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: I actually shot it full auto suppressed last weekend. It was unreliable with various buffer / spring combinations and after speaking with them, they realized that they missed a step and had me ship the BCG back. Initially they said it was just the bolt but had me send the entire BCG back to be safe. i doubt I will have it back this weekend. I was contacted by another customer that he had to ship his bolt or BCG back as well. Picture below is what I tested. Note that I only tested with the K lifter. I was told that it should be fine now so will see when I get it back. I didn't have time to test it more thoroughly and I guess it is a good thing I didn't since it was determined that they missed something on the units that were shipped out. When i get it back, I will test unsuppressed as well as some factory ammo....even though I shoot 99% of the time my reloads. https://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/MEAN-test1.jpg Ahh man you've deflated some of my enthusiasm towards the platform. Thanks for keeping us updated! I look forward to hearing how it works out. |
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Ugh. That's extremely disappointing especially after Tommy bragged about how meticulous they are being. Now I'm not sure if I even want to deal with it until they get the bugs worked out. Thank you amphibian. If you are having problems getting it to run, the rest of us are sunk. |
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Originally Posted By mmrpm: Ugh. That's extremely disappointing especially after Tommy bragged about how meticulous they are being. Now I'm not sure if I even want to deal with it until they get the bugs worked out. Thank you amphibian. If you are having problems getting it to run, the rest of us are sunk. What I am skeptical about is the ejector and extractor spring life. They have reassured me that it will be a lot longer than what is stated in the manual but still disheartening to see it all since these are non-issues in a straight blowback setup. I plan on not doing any preventative spring replacements to see how far I will get. Also the fact that you must replace the ejector pin each time you remove it is a thing. So not too keen on even taking the bolt apart to get to the ejector for deep cleaning or inspection. Sounds like after a lot of rounds it will be gummed up. So maybe the best option is to put in the ultrasonic for cleaner for cleaning to avoid disassembly then soaking, then blowing out with an air compressor then re-oiling. Not everyone has an ultrasonic either. |
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Can the bolt & barrel be run in standard AR uppers and handguards? I feel that most of the market for this would prefer a 3 lug barrel. I wonder if they put on the large muzzle break to add weight and further reduce muzzle flip and recoil in addition to the performance of the action to try and make their upper seem even better out of the box. |
WTB: Steel Bodied Surefire Trainer
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Originally Posted By Postal0311: Can the bolt & barrel be run in standard AR uppers and handguards? Originally Posted By Postal0311: Can the bolt & barrel be run in standard AR uppers and handguards? I feel that most of the market for this would prefer a 3 lug barrel. I wonder if they put on the large muzzle break to add weight and further reduce muzzle flip and recoil in addition to the performance of the action to try and make their upper seem even better out of the box. |
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Originally Posted By tawoodii: What changes do you suspect they are making to the bolts and BCGs amphibian. I wonder if its delaying too much and causing your FTEs? Originally Posted By tawoodii: What changes do you suspect they are making to the bolts and BCGs amphibian. I wonder if its delaying too much and causing your FTEs? Also, what did you think of that handguard? Seem to hold mlok items ok or was it flimsy? I was surprised that it wasn't any lighter than my CMMG. The CMMG is 8" vs 7.5, aluminum 8" rail and the upper has a forward assist. Would have thought for sure it would be heavier.    |
| Just got my call to get them paid, too bad I missed it. I'm really hoping to get the 7.5" rail for my 4.5" barrel, and convince them to keep the brake or donate it to a charity or something. That thing is getting tri-lugged before it even gets mounted on a lower. If it runs, the bolt carrier is going to be cut for RLL, we'll see how that goes for me. If that works, I'll move on to see about getting one of those HK cut SD integral barrel/handguard made to work. |
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Mine just got charged, the customer service was amazing. Really hoping this is my "we have mp5 -sd at home!" solution. My brief fling with the Maxim buffer is over now that this is shipping, off to the EE! I don't think even selling three other machine guns and a barrett would get me into an mp5 trigger pack these days. But shout out to Tom from Mean Arms for being awesome! |
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Originally Posted By jt526: Mine just got charged, the customer service was amazing. Really hoping this is my "we have mp5 -sd at home!" solution. My brief fling with the Maxim buffer is over now that this is shipping, off to the EE! Originally Posted By jt526: Mine just got charged, the customer service was amazing. Really hoping this is my "we have mp5 -sd at home!" solution. My brief fling with the Maxim buffer is over now that this is shipping, off to the EE! I don't think even selling three other machine guns and a barrett would get me into an mp5 trigger pack these days. |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: I got the BCG back a few days ago and hope to resume testing this weekend. Hope to see some others post some feedback as well. Did you notice any obvious changes to the Bolt or BCG? I wonder what they did to remedy the FTEs. Either way, its awesome to hear and I cannot wait to read your range report. |
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Got the email this weekend. Deciding if I want to follow through or not. Edit. I mean, is it worth paying for it, testing it for them, sending it back in, testing it more, and repeat? |
Words fall from your mouth like shit from ass.
| Shot my 11" upper yesterday-- I am very pleased thus far. Initial review in the AR-15>>Rimfire and Pistol Calibers forum here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/MEAN-Arms-11-bearing-delay-upper-initial-review/15-782051/ |
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Originally Posted By fullauto01: Shot my 11" upper yesterday-- I am very pleased thus far. Initial review in the AR-15>>Rimfire and Pistol Calibers forum here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/MEAN-Arms-11-bearing-delay-upper-initial-review/15-782051/ Well, I guess I’m getting one. |
Words fall from your mouth like shit from ass.
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I ran about 300 rounds of factory PMC 124 Gr and some factory 158 Gr IMI and my 147 Gr reloads. I tried the H, K and M lifters. I am getting failures to eject as well with all the ammo. I did run 50 rounds of 124 Gr Geco and that was problem free but 50 rounds isn't (2) 30 round mags. I haven't been able to run (2) 30 round mags flawlessly. I didn't have any 115 Gr to test as I really want to run 147Gr subsonic 99% of the time. I think the extractor is too aggressive...especially considering this design uses a fluted chamber to also aid in extraction. I tried to take the extractor apart according the manual but feel like if I use more force I may break it. I emailed them asking for next steps. |
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Well this isn't particularly good news. We have one 11" that seems to run fine except on 124gr (which is what I primarily use) and amphibian who I think has the 7.5" barrel which is what I ordered, that doesn't seem to run reliably at all. Given the design, I can't see the barrel length coming into play but I'm not an expert like amphibian. Which leaves perhaps QC issues in the bolt/ejector? I'm really on the fence now if I should get it or wait or try a longer barrel. |
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Originally Posted By mmrpm: Well this isn't particularly good news. We have one 11" that seems to run fine except on 124gr (which is what I primarily use) and amphibian who I think has the 7.5" barrel which is what I ordered, that doesn't seem to run reliably at all. Originally Posted By mmrpm: Well this isn't particularly good news. We have one 11" that seems to run fine except on 124gr (which is what I primarily use) and amphibian who I think has the 7.5" barrel which is what I ordered, that doesn't seem to run reliably at all. Are you having malfunctions like this? That was my most common malfunction. As mentioned, I tested with different lifters, my 147GR reloads which run 100% on my CMMG RDB and MP5 (both in full auto suppressed and unsuppressed). As well as factory 124 and IMI 158 Gr. I tried my favorite RB5007 hydraulic and 556 Tubb flat spring (and spacer). As well as standard carbine spring and H1 buffer in carbine length tube. All configurations were having the malfunction like below.  Given the design, I can't see the barrel length coming into play but I'm not an expert like amphibian. Which leaves perhaps QC issues in the bolt/ejector? I'm really on the fence now if I should get it or wait or try a longer barrel. MEAN has been bending over backwards for me and replicated my loads as well as used the same buffer and spring as I use. I told them they didn't have to do all that and I would just be happy if it was reliable with 147Gr and I would tune it myself afterwards. They tested my BCG and said it was reliable with my setup....I don't know how many rounds. The other variables are that I didn't send my entire upper back...just the BCG and my lower which is a post sample running a Geissele SSF trigger which again works on my CMMG RDB and many other configurations. There is also the variable of me the shooter on how hold the gun etc...but I would think there are other issues if it is that sensitive as to who is pulling the trigger. I'm not throwing in the towel yet. It is concerning that the extractor is so hard to remove. I want to get their blessing before I put more 'energy' into the disassembly. I would like to just get another extractor for modification as well. |
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Originally Posted By mmrpm: Sorry for the confusion amphibian. I meant fullauto01 has an 11", you had a 7.5" and I have a reservation for a 7.5". If this was a $700 upper, I would be more inclined to play around with it but at $1400 it's another thing. Now I’m back to waffling on getting it. |
Words fall from your mouth like shit from ass.
| My setup would be nearly identical to amphibian, RR & suppressed. I followed amphibians guide on my CMMG and it runs fantastic, but shoot it back to back with an SP5 and I still don't feel it's anywhere near as soft shooting which is why I am so interested in this upper. |
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Originally Posted By mmrpm: My setup would be nearly identical to amphibian, RR & suppressed. I followed amphibians guide on my CMMG and it runs fantastic, but shoot it back to back with an SP5 and I still don't feel it's anywhere near as soft shooting which is why I am so interested in this upper. I think the 40SW bolt setup is just as smooth as my MP5 but with a better cyclic rate. The problem is the bolt will eventually fail. |
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Originally Posted By Steamedliver: Now I’m back to waffling on getting it. Same!! If Amphibian is having issues... I don't have a prayer... It's an interesting design, but I'm going to wait till they've got the kinks worked out as everything I shoot is suppressed 147 - 150gr. Thanks for keeping us all in the loop gentlemen! |
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Originally Posted By amphibian: Not to side track the discussion but I presume you are just replicating my buffer/ tube/spring setup and not also using a fixed ejector and 40SW bolt for increased delay? I think the 40SW bolt setup is just as smooth as my MP5 but with a better cyclic rate. The problem is the bolt will eventually fail. You are correct amphibian, Kynshot-RB5005 with tubbs flatwire in carbine stock. First time I put that in my RR w/ 10.5" 5.56 I was blown away with how flat it shot vs. T2. I really cannot thank you enough amphibian for all your hard work and testing that you share with the community. |
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I haven't heard back from MEAN yet but wanted to mention that @fullauto01 reached out to me that he has had 100% success with some 147Gr loads with his 11" upper. One thing that I asked him and wanted to clarify is that when I test, I am fully loading a 30 round PMAG with Endomag inserts. I am not testing loading 10 or 20 or 25 rounds (1/2 a box of 50). I am trying to simulate a match where the mag is fully loaded which also applies more force to the bottom of the BCG. I would say that my malfunctions are occurring early on the mag. Under 10 rounds into it and typically the first 5 rounds. |
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I shot 147 grain factory and reloaded ammo in my 11" upper with zero failures last night. I updated my initial review thread on post #7 here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/MEAN-Arms-11-bearing-delay-upper-initial-review/15-782051/ @amphibian, I only had a little time and ammo to test, but I did run a full 30 round magazine for each ammo type (except the 124 grain), and in 147, in both suppressed and unsuppressed configurations. I also got a call from MEAN tonight-- sounds like they found a solution for your issues and my 124 grain NATO ejection issues, too. :) |
| Following. Very impressed and appreciative of the testing done by amphibian. Really want this platform to work out. Don't want to invest in the MP5 platform, and the only direct blowback I've tried was a Ruger PCC and was not impressed by that. I think I would go with an 11" model to have enough handguard space to mount all the goodies. I would love to be able to buy just the barrel/extension and BCG so I could build it out the same as the others in my fleet. |
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Originally Posted By Silverbear_51: I got the impression that you were just checking things out on the bench. I was wondering if anyone had actually pulled a trigger on live rounds yet. Thanks. |
| Thank you for the additional information. I can't help but notice that MEAN gets rather quiet when they are asked directly about using the Colt-style mags and they prefer to stick with nebulous statements about "mil-spec" receivers. Ah, well. I have lived well for many years without a roller-delayed upper for my 16 and can continue for many more without one. |
| MEAN Arms modified my BCG this week and I shot 115, 124 and 147 grain ammo in my 11" upper with zero failures today. I updated my initial review thread on post #21 here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/MEAN-Arms-11-bearing-delay-upper-initial-review/15-782051/ |
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So I shot it saturday (8/26) and sunday (8/27). I was more optimistic with the new extractor and only brought my 147Gr reloads. Lower - Kynshot RB5007, 556 Tubb spring, JRC tube and spacer to basically make it the same stroke length as an A5. 7.5 MEAN upper w/ K lifter installed and updated (8/23) extractor I ran (4) 30 round mags unsuppressed with zero malfunctions. I then ran another 30 round mag with my CT9KS and again zero malfunctions. (Mag5) I switched to my new Griffin Armament Bushwhacker 36 and 1 malfunction (Mag6) Ran it again (Mag7) and had two malfunctions. The 3 malfunctions were not ejection failures this time. There were failures to feed or double feed. I did all the above on Saturday. On Sunday, I brought out the original extractor but rounded out the corners and I only had one failure to eject and some other strange issues where it wouldn't fully chamber a live round but those round would go off fine in my CMMG RDB. I need to test again back to the updated (8/23) extractor and my CT9KS and bring some other cans with me. |
Joined:
Feb 2023
Posts:
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EE: 0% (0)
MD, USA
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Amphibian just curious if you disassemble a new car before you drive it😅😂😅. Would you share your load data with us. Are you shooting super hot or super slow rounds. I have shot this at the IV8888 shoot and had zero problems. Now this wasn’t the production model, but I can’t believe there would be that many differences. |
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Originally Posted By Fisunshine: Amphibian just curious if you disassemble a new car before you drive it . Originally Posted By Fisunshine: Amphibian just curious if you disassemble a new car before you drive it . Lessons learned with other guns. I want to get baselines of how things look before I mess with it. Would you share your load data with us. Are you shooting super hot or super slow rounds. |
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I went to the range today and tested extractor version 3 and ran EIGHT 30 round Endomags with ZERO jams!!! This was using my RB5007, 556 Tubb flat spring, JRC buffer tube and a spacer to let the buffer only travel the same as an A5 length buffer tube. My same reloads I've been running as well. 1st mag was not suppressed. The rest was using mainly my CT9KS and two mags using my Griffin Bushwhacker 36. I then tried the M lifter which I felt was smoother but then had a few failures to eject. I switched back to the K lifter and to my surprise had two failures to eject with the same exact configuration where it ran all 240 rounds w/ zero jams. I loaded a different mag and had another FTE on the last round. Both mags were ones that I ran earlier in the initial 240 rounds of the day. Another thing to note is that the bolt was held back on the last round for the first 3 mags. I never got last round bolt hold open for the rest of the day. Maybe too fouled? I did re-lube later in the day but still didn't get bolt hold open anymore. I didn't clean it though and don't think I shot enough to warrant cleaning yet either. |
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I went back out to the range this AM and tested the same configuration as yesterday: K lifter, RB5007, 556 Tubb flat spring and spacer in JRC tube, CT9K suppressor. Used (2) Gen2 non-windowed Pmags. Ran the same two mags 4 times (240 rounds) suppressed with zero malfunctions and had LRBHO every mag. A friend is supposed to meet me at the match tomorrow to bring me 5 Gen2 Pmags without windows so I can try running the match with (7) non-windowed Pmags. Hope it runs perfectly lik it did today. So it ran 240 rounds with zero malfunctions yesterday as well through (8) 30 round windowed Pmags with a mix and Gen2 and Gen3 but I only had LRBHO on the first 3 mags. I did clean it last night. I didn't do a 'detail' clean and disassemble the ejector assembly since you have the replace the pin if you take it apart according to the manual....and I'm not at 2500 rounds yet either so technically I shouldn't need to do it. |
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So went to the match this AM and on the road was thinking how I like the impulse of the M lifter more so I figured let me try the first bay with the M lifter and got two FTE's. So I am stubborn and thought, I really want that M lifter to work so let me go down to the lighter RB5005 with a longer spacer to mimic a carbine length tube and again two FTE's. So on the 3rd bay, I figured fine, I will go back to what worked yesterday and go back to the RB5007, same 556 Tubb spring, original spacer to mimic an a5 length tube and K lifter and got 2 FTE's. Last stage (bay 4) same config again as bay 3 and what worked 100% yesterday and another 2 FTE's. I exclusively used Gen2 Pmags without windows with Endomag inserts. Each time it was the same thing like I posted above where the extractor is still holding onto the case and live round is trying to feed under it. As a side note, I think my tuned CMMG RDB with my .40SW bolt to run 9mm with the increased delay is smoother than the MEAN with the K lifter which again is why I want to run the M lifter as I feel it is smoother than my tuned CMMG RDB. I know @fullauto posted on the other thread, "All my testing thus far has been on a semiauto stock AR lower that has been SBR'd with a stock carbine buffer and carbine buffer spring" When I first got the upper, I tested with a Sprinco 'white' standard power carbine spring and H2 buffer and it was unreliable, then swapped to an H buffer and ran a 7 round burst in full auto (loaded mag to 10 rounds but jammed) and it ran at 789 RPM. Which is too fast for me which is why I switched to my typical Kynshot hydraulic buffers and Tubb flat springs to bring the cyclic rates down. I have yet to test with a standard buffer like he did and really no desire since the heavier H1 was faster than I want anyways. Maybe this system just has better reliability at the higher cyclic rates and faster bolt speeds which probably help in kicking the brass out. I haven't given up yet though. |
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I was fortunate to go to the range again today (4 days in a row testing the MEAN). I was thinking that in the match I ran no more that 4 mags in a stage. It was typically 3 mags per stage and I had two FTE's per stage. Besides the FTE's, the ejection pattern was pretty consistent. Unlike the CMMG RDB where the spring is about to die and the ejection starts to get erratic, the MEAN doesn't behave the same. It seems to have consistent ejection and then you get an FTE out of nowhere. So I mentioned before that I did break the edges off the original extractor which helped. Then they sent me a second extractor that I didn't modify and it seemed to be better but still having FTE's....and now a third extractor that I received on 8/31 which has worked the best so far and then still had FTE issues in the match yesterday. So I decided to smooth out this 3rd extractor like I did the original one since all my malfunctions were FTE's with a extractor having a death grip on the spent brass. I broke the corners off with the Dremel cut off wheel and then used some abrasive rubber discs to smooth out the claw of the extractor. I also went back to the M lifter as I mentioned I feel it is smoother than my tuned CMMG RDB with that lifter. Went to the range and had several different people shoot it. At least 400 rounds today. Myself My wife One of my good friends that is a very proficient shooter his 14 yr old daughter 17 yr old boy 12 yr old boy There was only 1 FTE out of all those shooters today and it was with the 12 yr old boy who has only fired a gun a few times and he wasn't really shouldering the gun properly. All shooting was 100% suppressed with my 147Gr reloads. Out of all 3 below, I think the MEAN was the softest shooting of all of them. My friend that is a very proficient shooter and also a class 2 manufacturer also agreed. He also has plenty of trigger time on both platforms from his work.  |