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Posted: 2/5/2018 9:21:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: My gauges measure the ELD-M BTO at 2.1860. I set the WFL to the same BTO and it will not fit the mag. WFL set to ELDM BTO: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6602_JPG-442596.jpg 130 ELDM OAL: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6603_JPG-442593.jpg WFL OAL: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6604_JPG-442594.jpg Just won't fit that LaRue mag, even though it's the most spacious out there. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6605_JPG-442595.jpg Only saving grace would be if it still works seated deep and it doesnt mind the jump. |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 9:28:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Yep that confirms my worry. Thanks D3. Only saving grace would be if it still works seated deep and it doesnt mind the jump. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: My gauges measure the ELD-M BTO at 2.1860. I set the WFL to the same BTO and it will not fit the mag. WFL set to ELDM BTO: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6602_JPG-442596.jpg 130 ELDM OAL: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6603_JPG-442593.jpg WFL OAL: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6604_JPG-442594.jpg Just won't fit that LaRue mag, even though it's the most spacious out there. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/52736/IMG_6605_JPG-442595.jpg Only saving grace would be if it still works seated deep and it doesnt mind the jump. |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 9:29:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By icecold1:
Alright guys,it has been a long journey to getting my 260 ready to shoot long range,I'm down to the final component in the process----scope mount. So far i have the 260 tobr with a 22" barrel and a 18" barrel,2 cases of hornady eld and 2 cases of prime,along with a nightforce 5-25 atacr with a moar -t reticle. So I'm thinking on a tobr i would want a 20moa mount? What do you guys think? My boss has a gravel pit where we can stretch it's legs out to 12-1300 yards. I'm currently looking around my spare parts bin as i thought i had a obr mount in 34mm extra but im not sure that is the best mount for this setup. Also noticed that eurooptic has Barrett bors systems at close out pricing around 50% off so maybe a bors system? The only drawback i see to bors is the Barrett mount,all my other guns sport larue qd's Any input from the seasoned 260 guys? Thanks Pete I am holding out for the LT840-20 |
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Posted: 2/5/2018 9:30:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: I wasn't thinking I would shoot the flatlines in the gasser, only the bolt gun. I need to do some measurements on the RDFs and see if they also have the same issue. |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 7:18:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
I was just hoping we could use it in the gasser....ya know Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: I wasn't thinking I would shoot the flatlines in the gasser, only the bolt gun. I need to do some measurements on the RDFs and see if they also have the same issue. |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 1:13:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#6]
An older article on primer testing, your mileage may vary:
Primer Testing The PRB article on primers: Precision Rifle Blog The three part follow-up to the Primer Testing article: Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 The author Laurie Holland is well-respected in the community. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2018 3:15:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Got my hands on a 22" barrel and put 20 rounds of factory H130 through it, didn't measure groups but all well under an inch, my last 4 round (ran out of ammo) group had 3 touching.
Average mv of first 20 rounds over the V3 was 2718...excited about this barrel. |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 7:00:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: There may be a slight chance if they like a longer jump, but again, why bother? There are so many other potential loads that will work, all with under MOA accuracy. Lighter bullets do better in the gasser, would possibly see less pressure with MV |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 7:05:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Because this is a 121 grn bullet with a BC that is better than the rest. Just a numbers thing really. Lighter bullets do better in the gasser, would possibly see less pressure with MV Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: There may be a slight chance if they like a longer jump, but again, why bother? There are so many other potential loads that will work, all with under MOA accuracy. Lighter bullets do better in the gasser, would possibly see less pressure with MV |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 8:42:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: I tried the 123gr Nosler Custom Competitions and I just didn't find the right load for that light a bullet. I also decided on lower MVs in the gasser so I guess I have to leave the higher velocity, lighter stuff to you! I want to figure out a long range load and a hunting load. There are a bunch to play around with obviously, its hard not to want to use or try to make a flatline work. But it doesnt look pretty or probable in the gasser. The Prime 130 worked very will for me so I am thinking that is the range I want to be in speed wise. IF and a BIG if I was to use the flatline there, the MV would be rocking with less pressure signs(hopefully)(in theory). The scenar is supposed to also shoot well...we shall see. |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 9:16:57 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Yeah that is fine. I want to figure out a long range load and a hunting load. There are a bunch to play around with obviously, its hard not to want to use or try to make a flatline work. But it doesnt look pretty or probable in the gasser. The Prime 130 worked very will for me so I am thinking that is the range I want to be in speed wise. IF and a BIG if I was to use the flatline there, the MV would be rocking with less pressure signs(hopefully)(in theory). The scenar is supposed to also shoot well...we shall see. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: I tried the 123gr Nosler Custom Competitions and I just didn't find the right load for that light a bullet. I also decided on lower MVs in the gasser so I guess I have to leave the higher velocity, lighter stuff to you! I want to figure out a long range load and a hunting load. There are a bunch to play around with obviously, its hard not to want to use or try to make a flatline work. But it doesnt look pretty or probable in the gasser. The Prime 130 worked very will for me so I am thinking that is the range I want to be in speed wise. IF and a BIG if I was to use the flatline there, the MV would be rocking with less pressure signs(hopefully)(in theory). The scenar is supposed to also shoot well...we shall see. |
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Posted: 2/6/2018 9:49:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Doesn't the RDF have an exaggerated BC?
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Posted: 2/7/2018 8:20:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Doesn't the RDF have an exaggerated BC? |
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Posted: 2/7/2018 11:59:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: The 130 RDF is listed at G1 of -.615 and a G7 of 0.307. I am skeptical because the previous field use suggested a BC not nearly as good as what Nosler posts, for say the 140. |
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Posted: 2/7/2018 12:02:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
that can be confirmed via Lab Radar right? I am skeptical because the previous field use suggested a BC not nearly as good as what Nosler posts, for say the 140. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: The 130 RDF is listed at G1 of -.615 and a G7 of 0.307. I am skeptical because the previous field use suggested a BC not nearly as good as what Nosler posts, for say the 140. |
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Posted: 2/7/2018 1:52:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#16]
I may give this a try and see how it compares to the Hornady Comparator. On the web, this is known as the "Wheeler Method," which allows you to find your lands. #Where'sMySiete?
 Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 2/7/2018 4:08:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3:
I may give this a try and see how it compares to the Hornady Comparator. On the web, this is known as the "Wheeler Method," which allows you to find your lands. #Where'sMySiete?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg
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Posted: 2/7/2018 4:32:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Neat but how do I do that in an auto loader Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3:
I may give this a try and see how it compares to the Hornady Comparator. On the web, this is known as the "Wheeler Method," which allows you to find your lands. #Where'sMySiete? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWmIwPwLyyg My mission, still being unemployed, is to post something of relevance (at least to me) daily.
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Posted: 2/7/2018 4:44:23 PM EDT
[#19]
hey this is a safe place
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Posted: 2/7/2018 4:57:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
hey this is a safe place
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Posted: 2/8/2018 2:19:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Today's installment is the importance of Base to Ogive measurements rather than relying upon an OAL measurement. Since the BTO is the reliable indicator of the amount of jump to the lands, you should consider measuring your BTO to ensure consistency. Now, I'm not talking for 100 yard shooting, but at longer ranges (600+) it could give you fits due to volume changes in your case that could cause your groups to open up.
Some measurements from two lots of Sierra bullets (not my pictures): 
BTO: 
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Posted: 2/8/2018 3:48:25 PM EDT
[#22]
D3 have you ever seen talk about pointing the polymer tip bullets? Or sharpening them, etc?
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Posted: 2/8/2018 4:23:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
D3 have you ever seen talk about pointing the polymer tip bullets? Or sharpening them, etc? My plan is to measure my OTMs (by manufacturer) for BTO, as well as look close at the meplats and remove any that have issues from long range loading. This picture was telling, especially in that my old eyes couldn't see the problems until I looked at the close up picture, several of the meplats on these rounds are deformed: 
I'll do some reading and see it anyone is pointing the tipped bullets, but I've not run across any. I'm going to try and separate the bullets first, then consider tipping them as you need a trimmer and tipper, which is like $300. HH6 is on me enough and when she finds out what I just ordered, she'll be apoplectic. I want to take the weighed and separate brass, combine them with bullets that have been weighed and sorted for BTO and meplats, then load them using a scale that has precision to under a granule of powder. I was kicking around a theory that better segregation of components, combined with better load precision, will reduce some of the groupings that have you shaking your head when shooting at 1,000. Plus, I have time on my hands. Here's what I ordered yesterday (and an Area 419 base) to replace my beam scale, Chargemaster and GemPros. I also found a legacy (pre-China) Ohaus M5 beam scale for sale that was tweaked by Scott Parker so it too reacts to under a granule. The A&D FX120i combo:  AutoThrow Upgrade for AutoTrickler V2!  Review of the AutoTrickler V2 with AutoThrow on a A&D FX-120i scale with Area419 base. |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 5:24:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#24]
You will really enjoy that scale/trickler/powder throw.
I do suggest the new powder cup/shot glass and one of the 419 powder funnels/master funnel kits. http://www.area419.com/product/area-419-billet-powder-cup/ http://www.area419.com/product/master-funnel-kit/ |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 5:27:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
You will really enjoy that scale/trickler/powder throw. I do suggest the new powder cup/shot glass and one of the 419 powder funnels/master funnel kits. I hear they ship with a cup extension now, but I'll see what it arrives with. I have some aluminum funnels so I'll also see if those will work for me. I'm also thinking arbor press, but that's for another day.  21st Century Shooting Hydro Bullet Seater |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 5:38:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Do you have one of the scale combos? I hear they ship with a cup extension now, but I'll see what it arrives with. I have some aluminum funnels so I'll also see if those will work for me. I'm also thinking arbor press, but that's for another day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2QFq6Dfx4No I have messed around with that trickler set up and another scale combo. I just have the chargemaster and the funnel kit. I didnt order the powder cup yet, but I will shortly. What is the arbor press for? From 2:40  Billet alloy reloading funnel review |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 5:48:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee: I have to GBPSPE No I have messed around with that trickler set up and another scale combo. I just have the chargemaster and the funnel kit. I didnt order the powder cup yet, but I will shortly. What is the arbor press for? From 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfbZrufntcY |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 6:00:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Let's you sort rounds by the force needed to seat the bullet. So, if it takes 30lbs to seat and one comes in at 40lbs, you know that 40lb load will not group like the 30lb loads. Supposedly the LE Wilson die reduces run-out to about a quarter thousandth. |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 6:05:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
So this is a metrology tool for measuring case neck tension? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: Let's you sort rounds by the force needed to seat the bullet. So, if it takes 30lbs to seat and one comes in at 40lbs, you know that 40lb load will not group like the 30lb loads. Supposedly the LE Wilson die reduces run-out to about a quarter thousandth. |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 6:36:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: Nope, it's a more sensitive press that is another data point that helps reduce ES and SD through more consistent neck tension, look at the video when you have time. So I tend to think that this is where annealing comes in to play. Lots of people anneal after each firing. I can see how necks would get to a point where they have a different annealing due to firing schedule. It would only be by chance each round could absorb the same exact amount of heat, my guess is they would never be the same once you start shooting the brass unless you anneal. |
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Posted: 2/8/2018 7:04:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Shoot I am sorry I missed that video first go round. Looks pretty nice. So I tend to think that this is where annealing comes in to play. Lots of people anneal after each firing. I can see how necks would get to a point where they have a different annealing due to firing schedule. It would only be by chance each round could absorb the same exact amount of heat, my guess is they would never be the same once you start shooting the brass unless you anneal. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: Nope, it's a more sensitive press that is another data point that helps reduce ES and SD through more consistent neck tension, look at the video when you have time. So I tend to think that this is where annealing comes in to play. Lots of people anneal after each firing. I can see how necks would get to a point where they have a different annealing due to firing schedule. It would only be by chance each round could absorb the same exact amount of heat, my guess is they would never be the same once you start shooting the brass unless you anneal. I've also been looking into neck tension and was thinking that using a bushing on the outside of the case will only transfer any errors to the inside of the case where you want your tension to be consistent. I'm thinking I may use a collet die and mandrel to set the inside diameter and not worry about the outside diameter unless I experience a chambering issue. To that end, I did order a cheap Lee collet die in 260 and will experiment with different collet pin sizes to see if I can get the neck tension I want using an inside method instead of an outside method. Also, I needed an easy way to true up some factory brass that has dings at the mouth and the Lee die was like $15 on Amazon. 
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Posted: 2/8/2018 8:24:49 PM EDT
[#32]
...yes of course. That is the basic function of annealing the brass.
Once you anneal you change the property of the material, if it is softer it holds at X, if it has been hardened by multiple heat cycles it holds at X. The differential between the two states is where some of the effect of annealing is seen when seating bullets. I am strictly speaking from a standpoint of the annealed state of the brass. Not accounting for the sizing, that is a separate parameter set. The effects of unequal anneal would transfer through the sizing process, the brass would still hold at X( annealed state vs wall thinness). And yes wall thinness plays a part in the tension as well, but for the sake of discussing the anneal alone pretend the necks are all the same. If we are going to break it down we really have to break down each piece. I looked at expander balls on the whidden site, they use that to determine neck tension along with the bushing. From what I understood they use a combo of sizer ball and bushing in the die to get proper neck tension. And their method used both for a proper setting. I am just discussing because it is interesting to me. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 9:42:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
...yes of course. That is the basic function of annealing the brass. Once you anneal you change the property of the material, if it is softer it holds at X, if it has been hardened by multiple heat cycles it holds at X. The differential between the two states is where some of the effect of annealing is seen when seating bullets. I am strictly speaking from a standpoint of the annealed state of the brass. Not accounting for the sizing, that is a separate parameter set. The effects of unequal anneal would transfer through the sizing process, the brass would still hold at X( annealed state vs wall thinness). And yes wall thinness plays a part in the tension as well, but for the sake of discussing the anneal alone pretend the necks are all the same. If we are going to break it down we really have to break down each piece. I looked at expander balls on the whidden site, they use that to determine neck tension along with the bushing. From what I understood they use a combo of sizer ball and bushing in the die to get proper neck tension. And their method used both for a proper setting. I am just discussing because it is interesting to me. Just found this reference. AMP is basically saying you need to anneal every firing. The arbor press with gauge may also be a reaction to neck tension / release concerns as you can further segregate rounds by seating pressure to alleviate the differences in neck tension. The thread that follows, which is from 2013 when the concept was new, discusses a number of factors relating to seating pressure, release pressure and charge weight (pay attention to post #6). Of course, the people who tinker a lot have taken the concept to a new level, but Whidden keeps winning matches and supposedly he’s loading with his dies and uses the bushing and expander ball in the same operation. Apparently that works, but I’ve not seen any discussions on whether the neck gets slightly elongated in the process. But, since you trim after sizing, it shouldn’t be an issue. Seating Pressure 21st Century Arbor Press K&M Press Some people simply use the LE Wilson die and forgo the press altogether. LE Wilson Micrometer Die Okay, you can stop trolling me now.
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Posted: 2/9/2018 12:48:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: From what I've read about annealing, it can be done properly with a torch and, as you know, plenty of people are using torch-based systems set-up (hopefully) using a 750 degree templac. The bench rest crowd has indicated potential issues with the consistency due to time of annealing, poor consistency in the rotation of the round in order to reach temp, lower pressure from a emptying gas bottles, etc. They speculate any inconsistency introduces a variable. Now, these guys also turn the necks of their brass and probably several other steps, so you would think annealing wouldn't be the issue they claim. Then, as is with any progression in thinking, tinkering and science, along comes the AMP folks who make an induction annealer that they tune to a company's brass for precise timing and temperature for each round. To the bench crowd, another variable has been removed, albeit, at a cost of $1100. I don’t recall any discussions of release pressure based off the number of firings versus the number of annealings, but there are shooters who are saying they anneal after each firing. Just found this reference. AMP is basically saying you need to anneal every firing. The arbor press with gauge may also be a reaction to neck tension / release concerns as you can further segregate rounds by seating pressure to alleviate the differences in neck tension. The thread that follows, which is from 2013 when the concept was new, discusses a number of factors relating to seating pressure, release pressure and charge weight (pay attention to post #6). Of course, the people who tinker a lot have taken the concept to a new level, but Whidden keeps winning matches and supposedly he’s loading with his dies and uses the bushing and expander ball in the same operation. Apparently that works, but I’ve not seen any discussions on whether the neck gets slightly elongated in the process. But, since you trim after sizing, it shouldn’t be an issue. Seating Pressure 21st Century Arbor Press K&M Press Some people simply use the LE Wilson die and forgo the press altogether. LE Wilson Micrometer Die Okay, you can stop trolling me now. I think that arbor press is also a great idea, it will definitely show you what is what. I have been leaning toward listening to Whidden, he is on to something for sure. I like his products, very well thought out. Most interesting point to me, was the fact that over time the brass relaxing, and it not being at the same "set" when first sized. Interesting point, but makes me think again. Does seating the bullet the same day stop the brass from continuing to relax(general question)? Seems like it would have to have that exact effect if they have found it to work for consistency. Or, I would think that all ammo would have severe issues once loaded because the brass continues to relax(it really does not since there is a bullet there). There has to be a sweet spot, where you size, and load, and the natural relax of properly annealed brass takes a grip on the bullet with just the right force(bushing, die, expander ball combo). With the Whidden dies, using the expander ball kit along with a bushing, I imagine the case neck is going to get longer to a point then stop. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 3:50:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: I'll do some reading and see it anyone is pointing the tipped bullets, but I've not run across any. I'm going to try and separate the bullets first, then consider tipping them as you need a trimmer and tipper, which is like $300.
DIY induction annealer is on my things to do list as well... |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 3:57:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WolfMetalFab:
$300 thing? I might have to see if a "diy" version of this could be made, been doing a bit more with the machine shop stuff and some practice projects wouldnt be a bad thing
DIY induction annealer is on my things to do list as well...
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Posted: 2/9/2018 5:22:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
I tend to agree that once you fire a round and heat cycle the brass the anneal has been changed. If you want to eliminate variables you would have to anneal back to the state where the brass started before it was fired. That dang induction anneal machine is so nice...someone needs to figure out how to build one. I think that arbor press is also a great idea, it will definitely show you what is what. I have been leaning toward listening to Whidden, he is on to something for sure. I like his products, very well thought out. Most interesting point to me, was the fact that over time the brass relaxing, and it not being at the same "set" when first sized. Interesting point, but makes me think again. Does seating the bullet the same day stop the brass from continuing to relax(general question)? Seems like it would have to have that exact effect if they have found it to work for consistency. Or, I would think that all ammo would have severe issues once loaded because the brass continues to relax(it really does not since there is a bullet there). There has to be a sweet spot, where you size, and load, and the natural relax of properly annealed brass takes a grip on the bullet with just the right force(bushing, die, expander ball combo). With the Whidden dies, using the expander ball kit along with a bushing, I imagine the case neck is going to get longer to a point then stop. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By Defender3: From what I've read about annealing, it can be done properly with a torch and, as you know, plenty of people are using torch-based systems set-up (hopefully) using a 750 degree templac. The bench rest crowd has indicated potential issues with the consistency due to time of annealing, poor consistency in the rotation of the round in order to reach temp, lower pressure from a emptying gas bottles, etc. They speculate any inconsistency introduces a variable. Now, these guys also turn the necks of their brass and probably several other steps, so you would think annealing wouldn't be the issue they claim. Then, as is with any progression in thinking, tinkering and science, along comes the AMP folks who make an induction annealer that they tune to a company's brass for precise timing and temperature for each round. To the bench crowd, another variable has been removed, albeit, at a cost of $1100. I don’t recall any discussions of release pressure based off the number of firings versus the number of annealings, but there are shooters who are saying they anneal after each firing. Just found this reference. AMP is basically saying you need to anneal every firing. The arbor press with gauge may also be a reaction to neck tension / release concerns as you can further segregate rounds by seating pressure to alleviate the differences in neck tension. The thread that follows, which is from 2013 when the concept was new, discusses a number of factors relating to seating pressure, release pressure and charge weight (pay attention to post #6). Of course, the people who tinker a lot have taken the concept to a new level, but Whidden keeps winning matches and supposedly he’s loading with his dies and uses the bushing and expander ball in the same operation. Apparently that works, but I’ve not seen any discussions on whether the neck gets slightly elongated in the process. But, since you trim after sizing, it shouldn’t be an issue. Seating Pressure 21st Century Arbor Press K&M Press Some people simply use the LE Wilson die and forgo the press altogether. LE Wilson Micrometer Die Okay, you can stop trolling me now. I think that arbor press is also a great idea, it will definitely show you what is what. I have been leaning toward listening to Whidden, he is on to something for sure. I like his products, very well thought out. Most interesting point to me, was the fact that over time the brass relaxing, and it not being at the same "set" when first sized. Interesting point, but makes me think again. Does seating the bullet the same day stop the brass from continuing to relax(general question)? Seems like it would have to have that exact effect if they have found it to work for consistency. Or, I would think that all ammo would have severe issues once loaded because the brass continues to relax(it really does not since there is a bullet there). There has to be a sweet spot, where you size, and load, and the natural relax of properly annealed brass takes a grip on the bullet with just the right force(bushing, die, expander ball combo). With the Whidden dies, using the expander ball kit along with a bushing, I imagine the case neck is going to get longer to a point then stop. |
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Posted: 2/9/2018 5:23:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#38]
These just arrived - HH6 was gone all day - until the UPS guy decided to arrive. She had just pulled in the drive, all I needed was three more minutes...
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Posted: 2/10/2018 7:26:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#39]
Today's installment is courtesy of torrential rains here at the homestead!
I took the Warner 121gr Flatlines and measured them for weight and BTO. Now, I will say that when dealing with bullets, I follow Brian Litz's advice, which is to concentrate on BTO. I'm only weighing them to see what kind of quality I'm dealing with between manufacturers. On the other hand, I do weigh brass due to potential volume changes that could cause some vertical stringing at distance. As a reminder, here were the Sierra 142gr HPBT MKs: 
Here are the flatlines, which ranged from 121.74 to 121.84, that's some consistency! 
Then I spent an hour measuring the flatline's BTOs. I started with the comparator and the base on the calipers, but I was getting too much of a swing, so I took the base off and relied upon the caliper arm, which was then much more consistent when I was assuring the round was properly centered. The flatlines were pretty darn consistent; the BTOs ranged from 0.7615 to 0.7635. 
I'll also be measuring the the Lapuas or Sierras to see how they do with BTO. |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 2:16:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#40]
Alrighty then, today's update has a suggestion for Valentine's Day and a link to a discussion of which shot group is best as a measurement of precision.
Here's a tip for some Valentine's Day evening snuggling, ice cream. Not just any ice cream, but indulge in the Magnum! You can now buy the famous Magnum ice cream, that was on a stick, in small tubs. Dark chocolate raspberry is the wife's favorite, so I bought a tub today and stuck it in the garage fridge, where she never ventures. I'll break it out when we sit down to watch some chic flick she's selected. 
The second is a head splitting discussion on extreme spread and just how many shots do you need to shoot to try and determine precision. Here's the range statistics page discussing groups. Don't worry about the math, just read and process any way you desire. And NO, I am not trying to dredge up the "science" debate, we've been discussing reloading and precision is an element. |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:07:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Valentines is strictly prohibited within the walls of this thread D3
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:12:11 PM EDT
[#42]
On the flatline the .020 BTO swing seems like a big number on a CNC turned solid bullet.
I guess when I look at how much that would affect the case volume, I dont know what to think. Does that .020 really have an effect? |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:19:05 PM EDT
[#43]
Defender3
What material do they run those bullets out of ? Asking for a friend ... |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:27:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Defender3 What material do they run those bullets out of ? Asking for a friend ... They look like copper, but they could be a copper alloy. Let me do some reading and see if I can find a more definitive answer and If I do I'll post it. Also, I'm having a hard time determining jump to the lands, which appears to exceed the measured BTO by 0.150 or so. ETA - Mark, I'm talking my bolt gun here. I had it done by LRI in .260 and thought I'd be primarily shooting FGMMs, so I had it reamed (using a PTG reamer) for the Federal. With the advent of some of the RDFs, I probably would have had it cut a bit deeper. The freebore choices were from 0.0569 to 01800 and are on the page I linked. |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:33:56 PM EDT
[#45]
"Copper alloy" is the deepest definition I have seen.
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Valentines is strictly prohibited within the walls of this thread D3 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Valentines is strictly prohibited within the walls of this thread D3 Originally Posted By mettee:
On the flatline the .020 BTO swing seems like a big number on a CNC turned solid bullet. I guess when I look at how much that would affect the case volume, I dont know what to think. Does that .020 really have an effect? |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:37:53 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: You'll thank me later... I'm not a math guy, but I believe it's really a thousandth either way from 0.7625. 
That is what looking at computer screens all day gets me |
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:38:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mettee]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
On the flatline the .020 BTO swing seems like a big number on a CNC turned solid bullet. I guess when I look at how much that would affect the case volume, I dont know what to think. Does that .020 really have an effect?
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Posted: 2/11/2018 6:56:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
read it wrongly my bad Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mettee:
Originally Posted By mettee:
On the flatline the .020 BTO swing seems like a big number on a CNC turned solid bullet. I guess when I look at how much that would affect the case volume, I dont know what to think. Does that .020 really have an effect?
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Posted: 2/11/2018 7:34:40 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Defender3: You're quoting and talking to yourself, you need a break. Mark needs to do a run of solids that work in the gasser hint hint. |
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