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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:09:50 AM EDT
I need to prove to the police chief of Battle Creek that A Machinegun is leagal. Could someone help me prove this to them. I called to check if they would sign the stamp and the Atf Detective that helps the Police cheif with this stuff said that they are still waiting on clairification of the law. I need good hard facts and maby examples of what other law enforcement are doing. I need help please.

I am also sorry about any spelling errors.
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 7:49:37 AM EDT
Well initially you can go to the state police website for starters and point to the C&R mg FAQ. I suppose the guy's never signed a form 4 for a C&R MG? Thats kinda funny - but maybe.

That gets you started and then the AG opinion takes over saying any MG made before May 19, 1986 may be possessed as long as you are approved by the director of the BATFE and the approved form 4 is your license to possess it in Michigan. I suggest you read and or print certain posts I have put up elsewhere on this board.

www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1586_27094-10953--,00.html

Number two have him call the Oakland County Sheriffs Department as they did not understand what was going on but they do now and will sign off on your form 4's.

Then again you could ask him to call the Attorney General and ask!
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 3:09:57 PM EDT
You can make him up a package I suppose. Print the original 10 page AG Opinion 7183;

home.comcast.net/~sessa7106/AGOpinion7183.pdf

Print my 4 page "Understanding Michigan's Machine Gun/Silence Statutes and AG Opinions

home.comcast.net/~sessa7106/UnderstandingMichiganMGAGOpinionsfinal.doc

And print this copy of the Michigan Police Law Bulletin and highlight the remark about the AG Opinion.

www.michiganprosecutor.org/Downloads/PLB/12_2005/plb_12_2005.pdf

The CLEO signoff is not a big deal. Print and show him a form 4, point out item 17 where he would sign and it tells him what he's signing for. I have no information indicating that the transferee will use the firearm or device described on this application for other than lawful purposes. I have no information that the receipt or possession of the firearm or device described in item 4would be place the transferee in violation of State or local law.

titleii.com/pdf/010205-Form4.pdf


Let me know how you come out in convincing him - Mike Sessa Transwarp84@hotmail.com
Link Posted: 2/28/2006 4:56:12 PM EDT
Tell him that by him signing does not make him liable for it being legal or not. It is just saying that he has been informed of your attempt to purchase and that it is up to the ATF to determine the legallity. Then pimp slap him.
Link Posted: 3/1/2006 11:29:07 PM EDT
Bustoff-

Congratulations on a job well done!!! I'm awaiting the final ruling for suppressors

Just a brief question because at the moment I do not recall the specifics so I'm looking for the short answer with a reference.

I know as of current MI law, we CANNOT own SBR's unless they're C&R. However, under the MG ruling does this allow the ability to use i.e. a 10.5" bbl AR Upper on a Pre'86 MG lower? -or- because of other MI law will these MG's still need to meet a minimum OAL?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 2:26:32 AM EDT
Short answer is the machine gun is defined as a machine gun in MCL750.224 no length criteria. SBR is defined differently in MCL 750.224 B and there is set length criteria and also an AG opinion on the issue.

Bottm line is the short MG's should probably be be registered as a pistol in Michigan.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:33:48 PM EDT
Theoretically then, in other states where someone has a registered SBR and decide to go to a MG they're required to get a new tax stamp for the MG. Conversely, the MG owners who want a SBR have no need for a new tax stamp because a lot of MG's already are SBR's, and therefore the MG covers the SBR.

-BUT-

Since this is MI and we have state laws on SBR we'd technically have to go the route the AK folder, and P90 owners go registering their rifles as pistols.

If I'm following this correctly, and not missing anything, then how would one registrar a pre'86 AR lower as a pistol when it's on record already as a rifle? Also, what about pre'86 MP5 whatever’s, how would they fall in this.

I'm more inclined to believe that a registered MG supersedes the SBR issue in MI because it's a MG. (Then again I'm just getting back into this info now that it's an available option to MI citizens)
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 6:29:03 PM EDT
First off they are apples and oranges.

A machine gun is a machine gun period with a specific definition in both state and federal laws, it cannot become a SBR because its a MG. It requires a $200 dollar transfer fee or tax stamp paid at the time of transfer of ownership.

SBR is defined as well with a specific definition, made from a rifle blah blah blah. It is federally regulated and requires a $200 dollar transfer fee or tax stamp paid at the time of transfer of ownership. SBR's are illegal in Michigan unless C&R.

Neither MG's or SBR's can switch between each other making one into the other.

An MG with whatever length it is - is still a MG nothing else, although the MSP might like to have you register your machine pistol as a pistol and I'm not so sure thats totally legal on their part but thats an issue for another day.

You said - -BUT-

Since this is MI and we have state laws on SBR we'd technically have to go the route the AK folder, and P90 owners go registering their rifles as pistols.

I believe that is a correct statement and this is due to another faulty Frank Kelly opinion that needs to be dealt with in the future.

You said -

If I'm following this correctly, and not missing anything, then how would one registrar a pre'86 AR lower as a pistol when it's on record already as a rifle? Also, what about pre'86 MP5 whatever’s, how would they fall in this.

Because your attempting to comply with both state and federal laws and you must be in compliance. The federal laws regulated your gun as a rifle. Registering your rifle as a pistol in Michigan cannot change its federal status. Under federal law it is what it is. Registering your rifle as a pistol is complying with state law AG Frank Kellys opinion requiring a registration with your LEO.

And I'm not sure what your talking about pre-86. Pre 1986 MG's are one thing. Semi auto's are not equivalent in the same manner so forget about pre86 when talking semi auto.

You said,

I'm more inclined to believe that a registered MG supersedes the SBR issue in MI because it's a MG. (Then again I'm just getting back into this info now that it's an available option to MI citizens)

Yes although I would not call it superseding. A MG is a MG a SBR is a SBR one cannot be the other unless Frank Kelly gets reincarnated into the AG's office again and he's not dead yet.

And should you ever find yourself in a position with an LEO who does not know the law and or up on charges of possession of a registered or unregistered SBR or MG the burden of proof to prove you are incompliance with the law will be upon yourself to prove that fact. A copy of your form 4 will suffice as your license to possess a C&R SBR or MG in Michigan, keep a copy with the gun at all times and store your original in a safe place.



Link Posted: 3/2/2006 7:43:15 PM EDT
Bustoff-

Many of us will owe you a round or two sometime in the future for your help in this area, and maybe some trigger time


Originally Posted By BustOff:
First off they are apples and oranges.



Right - well, that's part of the issue because they've turn through laws, a firearm, into multiple categories based on cosmetic issues in many circumstances. Thus, the convoluted issues in wrapping ones brain around all the written statutes, laws, and opinions


A machine gun is a machine gun period with a specific definition in both state and federal laws, it cannot become a SBR because its a MG. It requires a $200 dollar transfer fee or tax stamp paid at the time of transfer of ownership.

SBR is defined as well with a specific definition, made from a rifle blah blah blah. It is federally regulated and requires a $200 dollar transfer fee or tax stamp paid at the time of transfer of ownership. SBR's are illegal in Michigan unless C&R.



Right...


Neither MG's or SBR's can switch between each other making one into the other.


Right, I hope I wasn't implying that. There’s something there I cannot remember...


An MG with whatever length it is - is still a MG nothing else, although the MSP might like to have you register your machine pistol as a pistol and I'm not so sure thats totally legal on their part but thats an issue for another day.

You said - -BUT-

Since this is MI and we have state laws on SBR we'd technically have to go the route the AK folder, and P90 owners go registering their rifles as pistols.

I believe that is a correct statement and this is due to another faulty Frank Kelly opinion that needs to be dealt with in the future.



O.K., I'm glad I've learned at least that


You said -

If I'm following this correctly, and not missing anything, then how would one registrar a pre'86 AR lower as a pistol when it's on record already as a rifle? Also, what about pre'86 MP5 whatever’s, how would they fall in this.

Because your attempting to comply with both state and federal laws and you must be in compliance. The federal laws regulated your gun as a rifle. Registering your rifle as a pistol in Michigan cannot change its federal status. Under federal law it is what it is. Registering your rifle as a pistol is complying with state law AG Frank Kellys opinion requiring a registration with your LEO.



Very good, this is one less problem to overcome for some of the items knowing that the "status" of one required compliance will not conflict with the other in order to gain full compliance under both state and federal regulations.


And I'm not sure what your talking about pre-86. Pre 1986 MG's are one thing. Semi auto's are not equivalent in the same manner so forget about pre86 when talking semi auto.


I'm talking pre existent MG's to '86 therefore, legal to acquire without a FFL/SOT and department request letter – i.e. then a post ’86 MG or dealer sample. Thus, MG's open for private and corporate ownership now in MI.

I may be missing something in regards to the 'semi-auto' thing that you reference.


You said,

I'm more inclined to believe that a registered MG supersedes the SBR issue in MI because it's a MG. (Then again I'm just getting back into this info now that it's an available option to MI citizens)

Yes although I would not call it superseding. A MG is a MG a SBR is a SBR one cannot be the other unless Frank Kelly gets reincarnated into the AG's office again and he's not dead yet.

And should you ever find yourself in a position with an LEO who does not know the law and or up on charges of possession of a registered or unregistered SBR or MG the burden of proof to prove you are incompliance with the law will be upon yourself to prove that fact. A copy of your form 4 will suffice as your license to possess a C&R SBR or MG in Michigan, keep a copy with the gun at all times and store your original in a safe place.



Right, so I'm understanding the short answer is that as a MG it would NOT be possible to have a shorter OAL barrel than 16" on an AR w/o a C&R, and the additional SBR tax tamp in MI?

Basically, I'm trying to understand an AR related issue to barrel length and what will be legal, and by what means in MI now that we have the new AG opinion.

Also, I know the SP89 was categorized as a pistols so I'm good there; however, the pre'86 MP5's listed (There is such a thing right, or are these converted semi-auto HK94's & SP89's to full MG's & SBR's?) were categorized as rifles under the law (even though there subguns) so assuming pre'86 MP5 MG's exist how will they be categorized under compliance with MI law. Is the MP5 A2/A3/A4 SD, et al whatever going to be a possible option for ownership now as well in MI?

I'm looking to understand the HK issue in terms of MI ownership.

Our LLC will be most interested in AR and HK acquirements so before I get barraged with the question I want to understand what options of these firearms will be open for purchase now in MI
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 2:40:13 AM EDT
An M16 MG can have whatever barrel length you want on it because its an MG. Changing the upper to various lengths cannot and will not change its MG status. What would you need an additional tax stamp for? You've already paid the tax on the MG which is your M16 receiver. This comes under the federal heading of once an MG always a MG and the receiver is the MG. Under state law if you register the M16 lower as a pistol I think you are good to go.

I'm not a lawyer but that is my understanding of the law^^^^

SBR is illegal unless its been designated a C&R by the Director ATF.

Go over to the Subguns.com NFA discussion board and ask some of these questions.

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 4:42:06 AM EDT
And under the AG's opinion your approved form 4 is your license to possess the MG in Michigan, so presenting such proof should be acceptable to any LEO ending controversy of what is what You have a valid license to possess the MG and thats your copy of your form 4.

Now registered sears open up another ball game. If you had a short host HK weapon that is currently the MG and follow all NFA regs and you opt to pull the sear and install it into another HK host the former short weapon could be an SBR at that point and an illegal one under state law.

Some guys have figured out that an endcap instead of a butt stock would make that short weapon without its sear a pistol under Michigan law satisfying both state and federal law. Of course a weapon without it's sear would probably be kept in a safe and not transported minimizing exposure, however most guys would rather be legal.

So I guess if I had to try to make things both legal under fed and state law I would go to my PD with my form 4 so they don't try to conficate it right then and there and register my lower receiver MG as a pistol and in the barrel length field I would put the various lengths in there or put "multi" in that field. Like I say I don't really know if we need to go thru this trouble but if you felt it necessary I would probably do it that way.

Also ATF will not approve a transfer if it would place the transferee in violation of federal, state or local law. So if they approved you should be good to go. If not then your out 200 bucks for 6 months, unlikely with the scenario's your presenting.

Does any of this help you out?
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 1:21:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BustOff:
An M16 MG can have whatever barrel length you want on it because its an MG. Changing the upper to various lengths cannot and will not change its MG status. What would you need an additional tax stamp for? You've already paid the tax on the MG which is your M16 receiver. This comes under the federal heading of once an MG always a MG and the receiver is the MG. Under state law if you register the M16 lower as a pistol I think you are good to go.

I'm not a lawyer but that is my understanding of the law^^^^

SBR is illegal unless its been designated a C&R by the Director ATF.

Go over to the Subguns.com NFA discussion board and ask some of these questions.




Bustoff-

Perfect, this is really the validation I was trying to get at. I had always understood that as a MG the barrel length was irrelevant; but, it's been many years since my original look at C3. I was trying to remember the full reasons why I've held that a MG RR was in a way an ace in the hole. A MG RR removes the need to acquire additional paperwork for an SBR or AOW feature; i.e., an MP5K with a foregrip, short barrel, folding stock, and RR PP. Only the MG RR allows all of these features to be present on one firearm.

In looking back over the question presentation and see how with each different tax stamp designation this could have been lost as to what clarification I was attempting to recall.

Yes, subguns.com is a great place for info. Thanks for all the help; I appreciate the time you've taken in this exchange.
Link Posted: 3/3/2006 3:24:38 PM EDT
Yeah I see where you are coming from now when you were talking about other stamps and such but just forget about all that as it relates to your MG you already paid the tax and you don't pay again simply because you want to accessorize it. That's the beauty of a MG. Changing your MG by adding the short barrel does not force you to file a form 1 to make it into an SBR and a $200 tax, I don't even think thats possible to do thru NFA as its already a MG and probably can't be made into an SBR since once a MG always a MG, I could be wrong on this technicality - anythings possible I guess.

You are right the MG can have all kinds of features normally found on other NFA regulated weapons without having to pay another tax, features like a short barrel or a vertical grip;

Build or transfer a SBR - a short barrel rifle - $200 tax

Build an Any Other Weapon - a vertical grip, $200 tax to make $5 to transfer

Link Posted: 3/3/2006 7:01:03 PM EDT
Bustoff-

It's been around 6-7years since I've looked at the topic of C3. Once I found out how poor MI laws were in that area I dropped the idea altogether. However, since that time we've had our rights slowly restored (Thank God!) starting with the CCW changes. I hate to say it but having Granholm elected actually was good because it removed her from the MI AG's office opening the door for us to elect Cox.

I'm happy that most of what I did remember in regards to the C3 issues was indeed correct. I have a general gathering on Sunday with a number of like minded longtime childhood friends where we'll be putting together the final details to start an LLC with the purpose of obtaining C3 items. That's why I wanted to refresh my memory on the main details for two specific firearms because that's where most of their questions will focus.

Now it's just a wait for the suppressor clarification and then the fun begins.
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