Posted: 2/12/2009 4:39:03 AM EDT
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Update 03/08/09:
Project guns is willing to provide us group buy pricing on RPD semi-auto receivers and semi parts. $675 is the group price, but we need to buy 10 packages. Adirondack1 and I will be handling the buy with project guns. We will have the receivers sent to a single FFL, and then each in the build will do the necessary paperwork and NICS check. So far, he and I are the only two confirmed as in for the buy. Here's the "bad news"- Adirondack1 talked to the guys at project guns. He came to find out this isn't a build that can come together in a day or two with hand tools as I had assumed. It will take lots of time as several parts must be machined to work in semi-auto, and the kind of machining necessary can't be done with a Dremel. We've been working out the fine details for the past few days on how we'll work it out. Adirondack1 is working on getting us pricing on Polish RPD kits from APEX. APEX has Polish kits with original chrome-lined barrels and all the non-semi-auto parts we need for the build, so there may be some additional savings. As always, we'll keep you posted. BREN 
Bren reweld project. These kits are scarce. Because of the scarcity and methods used to rebuild them, there is not going to be a group buy. However, you don't need to buy a separate receiver. And people can spread the cost of the reweld jig and filler steel. Plus, they're fairly easy to convert to fire cheap surplus 7.62x54R. Polish RPD 
This is for the RPD: If you want one, aren't afraid to spend the money to build one, get in now. We're looking for group buy pricing on RPD kits, receivers, semi-auto compliance parts, and maybe even drums and belts. I can't promise anything as MGS makes that ultimate decision, but the more of us there are, the more likely we'll get a good group deal. Once we establish pricing and decide to do it, this requires a firm commitment to join the build. If you decide afterward to bail on the group buy before we complete it, it will cost the rest of us. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Post in this thread if you're interested. Time matters as these kits are selling fast and probably won't be in stock a week down the road. |
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Quoted: http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=828401&page=1 Sure, it would take a few days and some specialized equipment to do a reweld, but who doesn't want a Bren?  I'd be in...though I think I'd rather try a reweld on a cheaper kit first like a Yugo M64...they can still be had for $230...maybe a bit less with a group buy...a $75 bucks for reweld plates, some compliance parts and you have a $350 milled AK...though we would have to provide a welding class prior to the build.  I'm sure that we could swing it for those of us who have welding experience helping those who don't...would be nice if we had access to a TIG. Other than that it would just be lots of prep and finishing work. I bet it would be possible for a small group of us to do a reweld in a day...though we could schedule 2 days just to be safe. I would LOVE a Bren though...how much work has to be done to the fire controls? Did the Bren fire from an open bolt? |
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I would LOVE a Bren though...how much work has to be done to the fire controls? Did the Bren fire from an open bolt? I think it is closed bolt operation. The internals need a little milling to change their geometry. When the receiver is rewelded, some "denial" pins are welded in to prevent FA components from being used and some welds fill in the carrier rails in places on the same principle. The lower has a selector stop weld to stop the selector from flipping into the FA position. The link to the builder also leads to a tutorial on rewelding the Bren receiver and various compliance issues. ETA: The tutorial makes it look easy, but you just know that wouldn't be the case. Still, taking a look at how much an 07 FFL charges for a finished semi-auto build ($3,000) versus how much it would cost to build your own (probably less than $1000 not counting tools) would make it worth it. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I would LOVE a Bren though...how much work has to be done to the fire controls? Did the Bren fire from an open bolt? I think it is closed bolt operation. The internals need a little milling to change their geometry. When the receiver is rewelded, some "denial" pins are welded in to prevent FA components from being used and some welds fill in the carrier rails in places on the same principle. The lower has a selector stop weld to stop the selector from flipping into the FA position. The link to the builder also leads to a tutorial on rewelding the Bren receiver and various compliance issues. ETA: The tutorial makes it look easy, but you just know that wouldn't be the case. Still, taking a look at how much an 07 FFL charges for a finished semi-auto build ($3,000) versus how much it would cost to build you own (probably less than $1000 not counting tools) would make it worth it. I'll take a look at the links. mmmmmm Bren. Have any idea on build time for one of these? Is it a 40 hour project or is it something that could actually be done at a party over a couple of days? I'll probably answer these questions when I actually read the links.
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That's what I think. It looks like MGS kits are sloppily torch cut whereas other kits are cut much cleaner. However, the MGS kits appear to have the gas tube intact where other kits may have a cut tube.
I think most guys build off of two kits, using one for the usable receiver and the other for "filler" steel. If we have multiple builds going, we could all pitch in for a MGS spare kit or two and each use it to fill in our builds and for whatever other spare parts we might need. ETA: As far as build time, I don't know. If we had access to a mill machine it would go quickly. |
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I've got 2 MGS kits. One is probably buildable with a lot of work, the other is actually missing a small piece of the receiver that was probably missed since the torch guy went beserk on it. Both of them have intact front tubes. The other thing about the MGS kits is the 'some small parts like springs and pins may not be included after the demil' clause. However it looks like everything major is there and I hear SARCO has a ton of misc Bren pieces.
I believe Weaponeer (weaponeer.net) is still selling the MGS Bren kits at a discount. You can also get a Bren rewelding jig through them and you can get a replacement magazine catch (and have them installed if you want) as the MGS cuts are through the edges of the Magwell area instead of straight down through the center of the magwell like the earlier IO kits. You also need to have the lowers and bolts milled I believe. There are several Bren build threads on weaponeer.net and projectguns.com has a pretty serious tutorial. |
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Damn, and I thought I'd finally gotten "kits" out of my system.  Hey at least it's not a $#!^ metal gun. 
Got that right! OK boys this is going to really inspire you: .303 British rifles are easily rechambered to use 7.62x54R, shouldn't be any harder to ream a Bren barrel than an Enfield. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Damn, and I thought I'd finally gotten "kits" out of my system. Hey at least it's not a $#!^ metal gun. Got that right! OK boys this is going to really inspire you: .303 British rifles are easily rechambered to use 7.62x54R, shouldn't be any harder to ream a Bren barrel than an Enfield. *INSPIRED!* will the Bren mags feed x54R? ...I would have to buy a pallet of x54R if that's the case!
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Damn, and I thought I'd finally gotten "kits" out of my system. Hey at least it's not a $#!^ metal gun.
Got that right! OK boys this is going to really inspire you: .303 British rifles are easily rechambered to use 7.62x54R, shouldn't be any harder to ream a Bren barrel than an Enfield.
*INSPIRED!* will the Bren mags feed x54R? ...I would have to buy a pallet of x54R if that's the case! Pretty sure they arnt. |
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I've read over on Gunco.net that a lot of guys make the conversion to 54R. It requires cutting a new chamber in the barrel, cutting the bolt for the 54R head geometry, and ZB39 mags as 303 Bren mags don't quite work with the 54R.
Furthermore, there are quite a few warnings to stay away from MGS kits unless you use them for filler steel or spare parts. So the more expensive kits on gunbroker would be the way to go unless we like pain and frustration. What about parts count? Since we'd be re-welding scraps of metal, that makes it a U.S. made receiver, right? How about the internal parts we'd need to modify? Other compliance issues. I'm not sure what parts the Bren has that need replacement. From 922(r): (1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks (trunions) (5) Muzzle attachments (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (strikers?) (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstocks (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates I'm getting pretty serious about this. If you guys are in, I'm in. |
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Here's more reference material:
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/archive/index.php?t-165.html I haven't had the chance to really dig into it, but I think it's safe to say it has all the necessary information for a Bren build. Also, I found this seller: http://www.ima-usa.com/index.php They have Mk.1 to Mk.2 upgrade kits for $600 and Mk.1 kits for $700. The kits appear to be I.O. Inc. four cut kits, with a chopped gas tube though. 
Kits are slim pickings. It seems it's either gunbroker, MGS, or IMA. |
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Quoted: I've read over on Gunco.net that a lot of guys make the conversion to 54R. It requires cutting a new chamber in the barrel, cutting the bolt for the 54R head geometry, and ZB39 mags as 303 Bren mags don't quite work with the 54R. Furthermore, there are quite a few warnings to stay away from MGS kits unless you use them for filler steel or spare parts. So the more expensive kits on gunbroker would be the way to go unless we like pain and frustration. What about parts count? Since we'd be re-welding scraps of metal, that makes it a U.S. made receiver, right? How about the internal parts we'd need to modify? Other compliance issues. I'm not sure what parts the Bren has that need replacement. From 922(r): (1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (2) Barrels (3) Barrel extensions (4) Mounting blocks (trunions) (5) Muzzle attachments (6) Bolts (7) Bolt carriers (8) Operating rods (9) Gas pistons (10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers (12) Hammers (strikers?) (13) Sears (14) Disconnectors (15) Buttstocks (16) Pistol grips (17) Forearms, handguards (18) Magazine bodies (19) Followers (20) Floorplates I'm getting pretty serious about this. If you guys are in, I'm in. yep, the receiver is US made, I'm in as well if we can get it to happen before August and we can all find good kits to work with and a machine shop. I have an idea for a shop that I'll have to look into...they would have milling machines, etc that we could use, but I have no idea of the likelyhood of being able to get in there. Is there anyone who does the milling of the small bits so we could get that done before the build? |
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August is easily doable, I think.
If we could get access to a machine shop that would be perfect. If not, we're pretty resourceful so I think we can make it work. HF has some relatively inexpensive TIG units that Bren builders and other re-welders have used with good results. They reportedly throw a good solid arc for filling the seams. We'd need a bottle of argon for shielding gas but it is an inexpensive gas and there are plenty of welding supply shops around to grab one. My older brother in Ohio volunteered to help us buy those pre-ban Bren mags in crates from Numrich and then ship them in so we can get around their silly "no +10 round mags to NY" rules. This will be great. I can't wait to get experience running a milling machine and welding. Getting a functioning semi-auto Bren gun out of the deal is pretty sweet too. |
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I bought my kit today fellas. I got it from FTF Industries. $549.99 + $55 for shipping. 2 barrels, one will go to the old 7.62x54 conversion, 2 magzines. Spoke to a woman there she said the cuts were relatively clean. The guys there said it would be a easy build. I figured worse comes to worse I could buy a cheap kit with no barrel to make up for anything.
Lets get this done. |
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Quoted: August is easily doable, I think. If we could get access to a machine shop that would be perfect. If not, we're pretty resourceful so I think we can make it work. HF has some relatively inexpensive TIG units that Bren builders and other re-welders have used with good results. They reportedly throw a good solid arc for filling the seams. We'd need a bottle of argon for shielding gas but it is an inexpensive gas and there are plenty of welding supply shops around to grab one. My older brother in Ohio volunteered to help us buy those pre-ban Bren mags in crates from Numrich and then ship them in so we can get around their silly "no +10 round mags to NY" rules. This will be great. I can't wait to get experience running a milling machine and welding. Getting a functioning semi-auto Bren gun out of the deal is pretty sweet too. I've actually heard very good things about the HF TIG machine...it's no Miller, and it doesn't have a foot petal (I've seen tutorials for people adding them though) but it's supposed to be a decent unit that is great for the "hobbyist". Hmmm...now what do I have to sell to be able to afford this build?  My Romy G AK build is probably approaching about 1k in this market. I should just have to add "RARE!" and "Buy now before the ban!" to my gunbroker listing and I'll have enough money in a few days. Seriously though, I'd be very excited about this build.
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Hmmm...now what do I have to sell to be able to afford this build? My Romy G AK build is probably approaching about 1k in this market. I should just have to add "RARE!" and "Buy now before the ban!" to my gunbroker listing and I'll have enough money in a few days. Seriously though, I'd be very excited about this build.
Romy "G" kits are going for $280-$350, and they look like the Cope's rusty kits too! I really wish I had bought more kits when I could have. I would be rolling in cash right about now. I'm probably going to order a Mk.1 kit or two in the next few days. I still need to find out how many compliance parts we'll need on this build too. |
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Ok, compliance issues:
As a hammer-fired rifle, the Bren has 16 parts that count towards compliance. 6 parts must be replaced with U.S. made ones. The receiver counts as one being a reweld, the buttstock, grip, trigger, sear, hammer, and gas piston have a U.S. made replacement part that is easily found. As a striker-fired conversion, the Bren has less parts (I think 14 or 15 since the fire control group is different and parts are omitted). So less parts are needed. Compliance should be easy. Also available (after talking to Adirondack1) are semi conversion blueprints with a letter from the BATFE stating the conversion shown in the blueprints doesn't violate the NFA. |
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Off on a tangent: I have a MIG welder, and have thought about buying a TIG welder.....my AC/DC stick welder used to have a tig torch, but it's long gone. I'll look into the Harbor Freight welder....I've been eyeing a milling machine, problem is a place to put it: the garage has too much crap in it now, in the Spring I might have to get one of those steel shipping containers: http://averdi.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/008724.1.1822802971739048951 If it's not too far for you guys, maby you can venture up here for a build: not as much room as the Club house, but I've got tools & equipment. plus a range ~6 miles away that seldom used. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=adams+ny&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=UAaWSbOQNoi6NNa2-JMM&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title Think about it, there's plenty of time. |
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Quoted: Thanks for the offer Glen I appreciate it! I'd certainly be willing to travel for this build. Everyone else has come to my neck of the woods for the AK parties. Off on a tangent: I have a MIG welder, and have thought about buying a TIG welder.....my AC/DC stick welder used to have a tig torch, but it's long gone. I'll look into the Harbor Freight welder....I've been eyeing a milling machine, problem is a place to put it: the garage has too much crap in it now, in the Spring I might have to get one of those steel shipping containers: http://averdi.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/008724.1.1822802971739048951 If it's not too far for you guys, maby you can venture up here for a build: not as much room as the Club house, but I've got tools & equipment. plus a range ~6 miles away that seldom used. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=adams+ny&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=us&ei=UAaWSbOQNoi6NNa2-JMM&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title Think about it, there's plenty of time.  |
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If it's not too far for you guys, maby you can venture up here for a build: not as much room as the Club house, but I've got tools & equipment. plus a range ~6 miles away that seldom used. Think about it, there's plenty of time. That would definitely work for me. |
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fp1201, I'm from your area and very interested in this, but I have zero experience with tools, welding, milling etc. Would you and the other guys mind helping a noob out if I do my part? I don't know what I might be able to do to help but I'm willing! Hey EMT did I meet you when you and Glenn came to Buffalo for that conference? |
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fp1201, I'm from your area and very interested in this, but I have zero experience with tools, welding, milling etc. Would you and the other guys mind helping a noob out if I do my part? I don't know what I might be able to do to help but I'm willing! Hey EMT did I meet you when you and Glenn came to Buffalo for that conference? No, never been to Buffalo. Wouldn't mind meeting ya though! |
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It's important to note this is our first try at building Bren guns. While a few of us are experienced welders and metal workers, I don't think any of us have done a reweld before and nobody in our group so far has assembled a semi-auto Bren. Join this party with the understanding you may not finish in the one or two days we set aside for the build.
If you guys want in, get your kits and compliance parts together. The sooner the better. If later you find you can't make the build, you can always list your kits and parts on gunbroker or in the EE or you can sell them to someone who decides to join the build later. Also, don't settle on a poorly cut kit to save money. It will take a lot more effort and therefore much more time to complete the reweld. I've crunched some numbers. It looks like total build cost will be somewhere in the area of $900 on up. This includes a well-cut kit, a spare poorly cut kit from MGS (the cost of which can be shared), compliance parts (trigger, gas piston, op rod, etc.), and a build jig. Your actual cost depends on the options you choose. |
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Quoted:
It's important to note this is our first try at building Bren guns. While a few of us are experienced welders and metal workers, I don't think any of us have done a reweld before and nobody in our group so far has assembled a semi-auto Bren. Join this party with the understanding you may not finish in the one or two days we set aside for the build. If you guys want in, get your kits and compliance parts together. The sooner the better. If later you find you can't make the build, you can always list your kits and parts on gunbroker or in the EE or you can sell them to someone who decides to join the build later. Also, don't settle on a poorly cut kit to save money. It will take a lot more effort and therefore much more time to complete the reweld. I've crunched some numbers. It looks like total build cost will be somewhere in the area of $900 on up. This includes a well-cut kit, a spare poorly cut kit from MGS (the cost of which can be shared), compliance parts (trigger, gas piston, op rod, etc.), and a build jig. Your actual cost depends on the options you choose. Thursty why do you need a poorly cut kit? If it'[s filler material you need just order some 4140 sheets and weld them in???? I'll get after my friend who knows the areospace welder who's retired , and see exactly what you'd need. I'm thinking if it can be done in the Syr area, you might have a couple sets of extra hands....... |
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After reading through the tutorials, these will require quite a bit of time and effort. the one thing I don't understand is the need for sacrificial receivers when a piece of medium steel could be substituted, maby with the exception of matching the contour of the machine work.
The jig will be a must. A chop saw could be used to clean and straighten the torch cuts so that steel stock could be fitted and used for fill. A milling machine would be the cats-ass, low budget could use a good, HD Drill press with a cross-feed vise, just have to be patient and deliberate in the movements. Can be done, but it won't be a cake walk.
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| I was talking to Ad1 and he brought up the same points regarding filler steel. Frankly, I could go either way. I'm just concerned about time and difficulty. I don't really know what the inside of the receiver looks like to make any determination as to how much structure we need to match or rebuild. Externally, a little grinding, blasting and filing would bring it together fairly easily. |
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Sawing precise, angled, fillers is tough. If it's a matter of a rail cut, an area that small could be done with a small cut-off wheel, or cut with the Milling machine or even a decient drill press with a CF vise.
While I'm no expert on welding or machining, there is a small degree of WECSOG in me.
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Kit came today. UPS guy said, "Woah 21 years and older for signature must be something good in there". I said "Yeah, we'll see". Needless to say I was skeptical as far as the condition of the kit because I only saw one picture. Drum roll please!!!
Clean small cuts. Should make an easy build. I cannot tel the condition of the barrels, they are doushed in cosmoline. |