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Posted: 7/4/2008 9:27:49 AM EDT
So whose ok with Ruger being a thief and anti civie sales?
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 9:37:52 AM EDT
I get the anti-civey thing, But a thief?
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 10:04:46 AM EDT
thief?


need more info on that
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 12:15:04 PM EDT
They stole another companies design.
Link Posted: 7/4/2008 12:16:22 PM EDT
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copty of the Keltec,
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 12:50:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copty of the Keltec,



(Don't tell Colt that Kimber makes 1911s. )
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 1:15:28 AM EDT
Don't tell Colt about Bushmaster and a bunch of others too!
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 1:16:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2008 1:19:47 AM EDT by KCMojo]

Originally Posted By Notification:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copy of the Keltec,


Ok Master of the obvious.

How were you when you found out about...
Tangfolio
Springfield
Taurus
Bus­hmaster
etc. etc. etc. etc....

Sort them out then you can be.. whatever the hell you are.

Only Civy sales? No one has ignored and loathed civies like colt, but you lay it at Ruger's door? Clueless truly most clueless post today.

Question Mr. Know it all. Is it a copy, or an improvment of an existing design?

Why do I bother? I don't even like the damn thing. I'll take my SP101 over either any day.
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 1:25:22 AM EDT
The patent rights on the 1911 and AR-15 are expired. The P3AT/LCP is much newer. (I'm not picking a side as I don't have all the info, just pointing out a difference in the examples given).
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 9:18:54 AM EDT
Only an infringement if "pistol" could be copyrighted.

To get in trouble you would have to copy it from blueprints.
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 9:36:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunnut284:
The patent rights on the 1911 and AR-15 are expired. The P3AT/LCP is much newer. (I'm not picking a side as I don't have all the info, just pointing out a difference in the examples given).


No patent protection for the kt. They just left the door wide open for anyone to enter. Ain't the first time it has happend and won't be the last time. Happens al lthe time in other mfg-ers products but I never seen so many people (mainly kt people) getting so bent out of shape over this . They have called Ruger on the kt fanboi forum thieves, stealing, no morals, comparing what ruger did to abortion etc. Some even posting a photo of the lcp with a big X through it. Everyone needs to get over it. It ain't goona go away. I look for the Pf9 kt to be copied pretty soon by some company.
So many 1911 copies out there I have lost count but that excuse is John browning is dead, gun is 100+ years old in design--thats OK. If you love ur kt, that is all that should matter, if yours works perfect why should anyone worry about what the lcp is doing- plus or minus...
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 9:38:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
They stole another companies design.


STEALING is illegal....
Link Posted: 7/5/2008 7:13:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2008 8:53:09 PM EDT by KnightofTheOldeCode]
Feel the need to call names? Anyway,

There isn't any correlation between several manufactures producing the 1911 or AR-15. Both patent are expired and both designs were produced under license for the government.

Ruger has never made a similar design or any small pocket pistol. They saw another company had a successful design, and they copied it to the letter then added a slide stop to get around being sued..

Now maybe it's an out right theft and maybe it's not. but it is unethical anyway you stack it.

Glock sued Smith and Wesson for the Sigma and won and I hope Kel-tec but I doubt being a much smaller company they can afford it.

I really like Ruger rimfire guns but...

They still will not sell high cap magazine to "ordinary civilians," were one of the main perpetrators behind the Clinton AWB. ect. Buy from them if you like but I cannot with a good conscience do so.




Originally Posted By KCMojo:

Originally Posted By Notification:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copy of the Keltec,


Ok Master of the obvious.

How were you when you found out about...
Tangfolio
Springfield
Taurus
Bus­hmaster
etc. etc. etc. etc....

Sort them out then you can be.. whatever the hell you are.

Only Civy sales? No one has ignored and loathed civies like colt, but you lay it at Ruger's door? Clueless truly most clueless post today.

Question Mr. Know it all. Is it a copy, or an improvment of an existing design?

Why do I bother? I don't even like the damn thing. I'll take my SP101 over either any day.
Link Posted: 7/6/2008 12:10:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2008 12:13:35 AM EDT by ScrapMetal]
height=8
Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:

I really like Ruger rimfire guns but...

They still will not sell high cap magazine to "ordinary civilians," were one of the main perpetrators behind the Clinton AWB. ect. Buy from them if you like but I cannot with a good conscience do so.


If that is true (someone help me out here on the facts) then I think you have something to complain about.

Otherwise, this is what companies do. They improve upon each other's designs. Even if they had a patent, adding a slide stop would have put them in the clear. If Kel-Tec thought something illegal was done I'm sure they would take it to court, but I'm sure it is not as simple as we seem to think it is. Was KT the first company to make a pocket pistol?




Link Posted: 7/6/2008 12:50:25 AM EDT
From Wikipedia:

In a letter to members of the House and Senate on 30 March 1989, Ruger stated in what has come to be known as "The Ruger Letter":

"The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete, and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining "assault rifles" and "semi-automatic rifles" is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could prohibit their possession or sale and would effectively implement these objectives."

In addition to the furor amongst hunters, sportsmen and shooters caused by "The Ruger Letter", Ruger made additional comments during an interview with NBCs Tom Brokaw that angered 2nd Amendment proponents even further, saying that "no honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun…" and "I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 and 30 round magazines…"

This position, coming from an important firearms manufacturer such as Ruger, caused outrage in the shooting sports community and led to a boycott of Ruger products that is still practiced by many firearms purchasers to this day, who choose to buy products from manufacturers who they feel hold a greater respect for their customers. Though Ruger retired (and later died), there is fear that his suspected contempt for the company's customer base still permeates upper management of the company.

"The Ruger Letter" is widely accepted as being the genesis for those parts of legislation that were drafted 5 years later in the now defunct Assault Weapons Ban which prohibited the manufacture of any magazines holding over 10 rounds of ammunition for civilian sale, except to the motion-picture industry, which Ruger continued to pursue. Critics consider it ironic that the company would supply shows such as The A Team with the Model 556 (a fully-automatic machine gun), then complain about the resulting public image of the semi-automatic Mini-14 lookalike.

While it is unknown what the true motives behind "The Ruger Letter" really were, it is widely speculated that his position on magazine capacity was more a matter of smart business than one of individual philosophy. Given the legislative climate regarding firearms during that time (the late 1980s/early 1990s), the prospect of an outright ban that may have impacted one of Rugers most popular and profitable models (the Mini 14) was a very real possibility.

By taking preemptive measures to shift the focus from the "guns" to the "magazine capacity", this would allow Sturm, Ruger to continue production with their Mini 14 line of firearms for civilian sale. Any legislation regarding magazines would have had zero impact on their bottom line, given that Ruger maintained a company policy refusing to sell Mini 14 magazines over 5 rounds (which would not have been affected), even prior to the 1994 legislation.

However, the tactic was a complete failure. Not only was the Mini-14 included in the various lists of banned guns, but the customer base of "simple civilians" simply found other vendors, while the government and law-enforcement markets largely continued to pass by Ruger products in favor of arms from Colt's, Springfield Armory, Heckler and Koch, FN and others.


It might be noted that no Ruger Family members now sit on the Ruger Board of Directors or are corporate officers.

Link Posted: 7/6/2008 1:29:47 AM EDT
The Ruger SR9 comes with a factory 17rd mag. The Mini-14 NRA special edition comes with 2 factory 20rd mags. OP is filled with fail.
Link Posted: 7/6/2008 10:46:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2008 10:51:12 AM EDT by Nakanokalronin]
Ruger copied the Kel-Tec internals at least 99%. On the outside it looks alittle different.People know it but even gun writers are spouting how its this revolutionary type of firearm never produced before. Ruger claims they started from "a blank sheet of paper".All BS of course and they are having identical issues that some Kel-Tec P3AT owners have which is not a coincidence. That "blank piece of paper" is what makes Ruger look like a design thief with no credit to anyone else.

The bit about the high cap mags not being sold to the public is all old man Rugers doing. That man is what held back the company from flowering out to other models like the SR-9 which was built for high-cap mags. I have 4 Rugers, a P89,10/22,SP101 and a GP100 which was my first gun and each one is built very well with no problems. Ruger is changing for the better right now IMO as long as they don't pull any more of the "blank piece of paper" type of stuff.
Link Posted: 7/6/2008 12:08:23 PM EDT
Not really, just because one special limited edition comes with high caps doesn't change their policy. And they won't even sell you a replacement firing pin or other parts if you need them

The SR9, the gun thats already been recalled? yeah it has high caps, ever they figured that one out i guess.


Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
The Ruger SR9 comes with a factory 17rd mag. The Mini-14 NRA special edition comes with 2 factory 20rd mags. OP is filled with fail.
Link Posted: 7/6/2008 12:48:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
The Ruger SR9 comes with a factory 17rd mag. The Mini-14 NRA special edition comes with 2 factory 20rd mags. OP is filled with fail.


not to fuel the fire but retailers cannot order 20 round mags from Ruger or wholesalers. The ONLY way that NEW 20 rounders can be bought by mere mortal gun shops is to purchase the NRA edition.

Also the mere fact that ruger will develop a handgun with a 17 rd capacity while at the same time refusing to sell 20 round rifle mags does make one question their ethics.
Link Posted: 7/6/2008 3:59:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikickhippies:
...Also the mere fact that ruger will develop a handgun with a 17 rd capacity while at the same time refusing to sell 20 round rifle mags does make one question their ethics.


Not as far as I am concerned . It does, however, make me question their business sense.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 4:21:21 PM EDT


Seems like people love to grab the torches and pitchforks on the gun companies.

Even gun lovers

Link Posted: 7/7/2008 5:30:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By coctailer:

Seems like people love to grab the torches and pitchforks on the gun companies.

Even gun lovers



Indeed. Kill your own. It seems to be a popular thing with some.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 6:00:29 PM EDT
The way I understand it is that the reverse is true, Ruger sacrificed gun owners and other gun companies to the clinton gun ban in order to protect and increase their profits.
Link Posted: 7/7/2008 8:04:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The way I understand it is that the reverse is true, Ruger sacrificed gun owners and other gun companies to the clinton gun ban in order to protect and increase their profits.


Right, so lets teach them a lesson and stop buying ALL guns. That'll stop 'em.

I heard someone found rust on a Kahr. Let's ban them too!!!

My GSG jammed once. That could put me at serious risk!!!

DEATH TO FIREARMS COMPANIES!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 9:01:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By coctailer:

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The way I understand it is that the reverse is true, Ruger sacrificed gun owners and other gun companies to the clinton gun ban in order to protect and increase their profits.


Right, so lets teach them a lesson and stop buying ALL guns. That'll stop 'em.

I heard someone found rust on a Kahr. Let's ban them too!!!

My GSG jammed once. That could put me at serious risk!!!

DEATH TO FIREARMS COMPANIES!!!!!


i saw it jam 3 times on sunday
Link Posted: 7/8/2008 11:52:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copty of the Keltec,


As an LCP owner I'm OK with it! I seriously doubt the Kel-Tec even has anything patentable or any patents as there is nothing on the Kel-Tec that could be consider new and patentable.

I don't understand why anyone that doesn't have financial interests, in either Kel-Tec or Ruger would care if there was any infringement.

People can and are deciding with there wallet what they want.
Link Posted: 7/11/2008 8:22:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
So whose ok with Ruger being a thief and anti civie sales?


Thief no they are not, do a side by side comparsion of actions and total breakdowns. S&w damn near copied the whole gun. Basic facts Kel-tec doesn't have the right patents or they would have sued them at the shot show. Or pretty much them with a cease order like Trijicon did to NcStar in 04 or 05 at the shotshow no less.The anti civie sales I will also take issue with, when most people slammed them for making guns with only ten rounders before the law was in effect, or the not supporting of gunshows. The last gunshow I attended was over 2 years ago. It is a well known gun show in Ohio,Kentucky, and Tennessee,Bill Goodman's in Dayton. They wouldn't let an 80+ year old wheel chaired bound vet in 15-20 minutes early to use the restroom. I did not know the man at all and even offered several of the box office personell $20 to let him to use the restroom. I left there immediately and have not been back since. To only mention previous experiences the lowball prices I was offered for any gun I brung for sale/trade-in previous to that.
I worked at a gun store during Clinton's first 4 years and I seen a lot more "whoring" by gun manufacturers than to that of Ruger. Others ventured into patnerships to try to change what was a bullet was made of or the coating on bullets. Black talon (winchester and still semi-made under other names)and Nyclad (s&w and federal) to name a few. Others tried to changed the case material,the last company to go bankrupt from that was Natec, previous others tried and realized it didn't work on a warm gun either semi or bolt action. Outside of the of the Talon ammo, none worked.
Link Posted: 7/11/2008 8:46:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikickhippies:
The ONLY way that NEW 20 rounders can be bought by mere mortal gun shops is to purchase the NRA edition.


Or they could just buy them from Ruger distributor like Lipseys or Davidsons
Link Posted: 7/13/2008 11:45:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
So whose ok with Ruger being a thief and anti civie sales?
Nobody here gives a shit.
Link Posted: 7/13/2008 5:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

Originally Posted By ikickhippies:
The ONLY way that NEW 20 rounders can be bought by mere mortal gun shops is to purchase the NRA edition.


Or they could just buy them from Ruger distributor like Lipseys or Davidsons


Evidently you have never tried buying them from those wholesalers. Those of us who have tried know they are not available.
Link Posted: 7/13/2008 5:33:14 PM EDT
They were in stock as of last week at Lipseys

I know lots of dealers that have bought them
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 3:16:01 PM EDT
somebody didn't read the thread..


Originally Posted By predator611:

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
So whose ok with Ruger being a thief and anti civie sales?


Thief no they are not, do a side by side comparsion of actions and total breakdowns. S&w damn near copied the whole gun. Basic facts Kel-tec doesn't have the right patents or they would have sued them at the shot show. Or pretty much them with a cease order like Trijicon did to NcStar in 04 or 05 at the shotshow no less.The anti civie sales I will also take issue with, when most people slammed them for making guns with only ten rounders before the law was in effect, or the not supporting of gunshows. The last gunshow I attended was over 2 years ago. It is a well known gun show in Ohio,Kentucky, and Tennessee,Bill Goodman's in Dayton. They wouldn't let an 80+ year old wheel chaired bound vet in 15-20 minutes early to use the restroom. I did not know the man at all and even offered several of the box office personell $20 to let him to use the restroom. I left there immediately and have not been back since. To only mention previous experiences the lowball prices I was offered for any gun I brung for sale/trade-in previous to that.
I worked at a gun store during Clinton's first 4 years and I seen a lot more "whoring" by gun manufacturers than to that of Ruger. Others ventured into patnerships to try to change what was a bullet was made of or the coating on bullets. Black talon (winchester and still semi-made under other names)and Nyclad (s&w and federal) to name a few. Others tried to changed the case material,the last company to go bankrupt from that was Natec, previous others tried and realized it didn't work on a warm gun either semi or bolt action. Outside of the of the Talon ammo, none worked.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 12:34:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 12:36:15 PM EDT by KnightofTheOldeCode]
None of the things you say have anything to do with the subject at hand

A design malfunctioning or rusting is a mechanical issue, not an ethical one which is whats being talked about here. some just don't get it. but ok, i've said my piece.





Right, so lets teach them a lesson and stop buying ALL guns. That'll stop 'em.

I heard someone found rust on a Kahr. Let's ban them too!!!

My GSG jammed once. That could put me at serious risk!!!

DEATH TO FIREARMS COMPANIES!!!!!
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 5:31:03 AM EDT
Lets see...

Ruger hates gun owners -

Ruger stole a design -

Here's a few more for you:
Buy a Kahr, support Moonies.
Buy a Browning support Mormons.

Kahr sued Colt because of patent violations, and won.
Glock sued S&W because of patent violations, and won.
Kel Tecs design features were copies/improvements on the work of others, so there was nothing to patent.

Most guns are copies of other designs, and usually we applaud them.
But some people will never let Ruger get over a mistake the owner made 20 years ago.
Keep beating the dead horse.
Maybe eventually, you can put an American company out of business.

By the way, I have an LCP.
I've had many, many Kel Tecs.
The Ruger is a better gun in many respects.

There is a new sheriff in town at Ruger, and I think they are starting to make some sensible decisions.
Time will tell.

I'll buy what I want, and you guys buy what you want.
How 'bout that?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:50:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mini14jac:
Buy a Browning support Mormons Belgians

Link Posted: 7/23/2008 3:57:52 PM EDT
Yes I did the read the post. Gun companies have been copying designs long before you and I were born. What does seecamp have to say about the keltec? I almost bought a keltec thinking it was a seecamp.
Link Posted: 7/23/2008 4:07:17 PM EDT
O my god ban all the 1911 clones.

Link Posted: 7/28/2008 2:14:22 PM EDT

Dude, I don't know how anyone that knows guns could confuse a Kel-Tec with a Seecamp, lol. Besides both being small there are very little alike.

I'm sure Kel-Tec does not have the hugh legal department Ruger has or they would probally sue.

Yes to each his own.


Originally Posted By predator611:
Yes I did the read the post. Gun companies have been copying designs long before you and I were born. What does seecamp have to say about the keltec? I almost bought a keltec thinking it was a seecamp.
Link Posted: 7/28/2008 2:16:15 PM EDT

That's the problem right there. Thanks for adding so much to the discussion.


Originally Posted By XM21Nick:
Nobody here gives a shit.
Link Posted: 7/29/2008 1:13:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trlsmn:

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copty of the Keltec,


As an LCP owner I'm OK with it! I seriously doubt the Kel-Tec even has anything patentable or any patents as there is nothing on the Kel-Tec that could be consider new and patentable.

I don't understand why anyone that doesn't have financial interests, in either Kel-Tec or Ruger would care if there was any infringement.

People can and are deciding with there wallet what they want.


your actually right, it seems the only people who are really upset about the lcp/kt thing are the kt fanbois. They are still not over it yet. to me ruger's lcp sales of over 31,000 in less than 7 months tells me that people were wanting something other than what kt was offering. Evidently kt didn't think enough about thier little pocket rockets to protect them either. the door was left wide open IMO...
Link Posted: 7/29/2008 1:14:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
They stole another companies design.


THEY STOLE IT. Wow I thought stealing was illegal????
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 6:41:05 AM EDT
Name one gun Ruger has released in the past 5 years that wasn't a copy of another companies design or an alteration of a design that they already made.

There is a distinct lack of innovation and they are either robbing designs from other companies or "upgrading" current designs.

Bottom line: They're out of ideas and struggling to develop anything that works. And they Discontinued two of their better selling weapons [Deerfield and 10/22 Magnum].
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 4:51:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trlsmn:

Originally Posted By KnightofTheOldeCode:
The Ruger LCP is a blatant copty of the Keltec,


As an LCP owner I'm OK with it! I seriously doubt the Kel-Tec even has anything patentable or any patents as there is nothing on the Kel-Tec that could be consider new and patentable.

I don't understand why anyone that doesn't have financial interests, in either Kel-Tec or Ruger would care if there was any infringement.

People can and are deciding with there wallet what they want.


Yeah, I sit here with a Keltec P11 in front of me and I don't care, either.

Keltec didn't patent the design, they have nothing to complain about. This crap is getting VERY old.

Don't like that Ruger built a gun virtually identical to the Keltec? Great, buy the Keltec instead. It isn't like Keltec's going to complain about the business and their customer service is reputed to be very good. (I personally wouldn't know as my P11 is perfect, operationally-speaking)

Link Posted: 8/1/2008 4:56:52 PM EDT
Oh, and for the guys screaming about what Ruger did to our rights, I have to pull a LarryG and ask:

How many of you own S&Ws and Glocks?
Link Posted: 8/2/2008 7:30:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ikickhippies:
Name one gun Ruger has released in the past 5 years that wasn't a copy of another companies design or an alteration of a design that they already made.

There is a distinct lack of innovation and they are either robbing designs from other companies or "upgrading" current designs.

Bottom line: They're out of ideas and struggling to develop anything that works. And they Discontinued two of their better selling weapons [Deerfield and 10/22 Magnum].


"Robbing other companies"? 5 years is a very short time frame from which to judge Ruger's innovations. Most of the product line is their own design, and what isn't is not protected by patent. Do you also claim that companies that make 1911s and ARs are "robbing" the estates of Browning and Stoner?

Link Posted: 8/3/2008 5:31:13 PM EDT
nope, cause when weapons are made for government use any weapons manufacturer may make their own copy.

And since Ruger makes substandard weapons not fit for military use they don't have to worry about anyone else "Stealing" their crappy designs.

try again
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 4:28:08 AM EDT
"Try again"? Your post is so full of wrong I don't know where to start. Read up on patent law and Ruger's history of providing .mil/.gov with weapons (obviously not as to the extent of a Colt or FN) and then go ahead and "try again" yourself.




Link Posted: 8/4/2008 6:39:23 PM EDT
name one military weapon currently in use by United States Military Forces made by Ruger.
Link Posted: 8/4/2008 9:39:26 PM EDT
Ruger awarded Army contract
Shooting Industry, Feb, 2005



Sturm, Ruger & Co. Inc. has been awarded a contract for 5,000 KP95D 9mm pistols by the U.S. Army Tank Automotive and Armaments Command, Rock Island Arsenal, III.

"We are honored to be part of the nation's defense by furnishing the Army with Ruger P95 pistols," said Steve Sanetti, Ruger president. "Ruger's P95 pistols have developed a legendary reputation for strength, reliability and value during the last 10 years, and we are proud to have won the U.S. Army's competitive bid with these fine firearms."

The pistols to be supplied under this contract will be manufactured in the company's Prescott, Ariz., manufacturing facility.
Link Posted: 8/7/2008 12:58:12 AM EDT
Some of the Mexican federalises carry Ruger P series also. But I wouldn't go around braggin about it, lol.
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