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Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Oh I'm not arguing. I have a calendar reminder set up for that. I'm just answering the OP's question from an average carry person perspective. Debating the speed of irons vs. red dot is not realistic. I'm faster on irons than 90% of people on dots, but I train constantly. If someone trained on a dot more than I do, they'd be faster, but not because it's irons or dots. Make sense? It's more operator oriented than hardware, so it's impossible to factually assign a winner since no true comparison can be achieved. Given equal skill level, MRDS is faster |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By Marksman14: Gun dork cops are 
Theres a lot that goes into cops using them. Department policy is also a huge limiter around here. Cops are notoriously cheap, and frankly some simply aren't paid enough to be able to do it. Those hurdles are a major limiter.
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"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
To say that you are faster with irons than someone else with an optic may be true... But that’s a far cry from “irons are faster”. Given equal skill level, MRDS is faster It's not really a skill thing, so much as it is a round count and practice thing. Someone who has spent a great deal of time under irons isn't going to pick up a RDS-equipped pistol and suddenly be faster. I see this all the time in classes. New students show up with a shiny new MOS glock running RDS and the other shooters with irons run circles around them. I will say that at distances out past 20m, the RDS has a huge accuracy and speed advantage for pretty much anyone, though. Any given person can be good with either, given adequate practice. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y: They are. I think cops are a great use-case for dots, honestly. I expect gun nerd cops would probably put the rounds out that are required to become proficient with the RDS. Average cops get the obligatory 50 rounds a year and would spend 20 seconds looking for a dot in a real UOF situation. |
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Well, the only time I've used a red dot was at cola warrior Texas.
I did like it. Does milt sparks make the VS2 for red dots? That's my issue. Until then, practice with what I have and seemed to work for the last 150 years. |
In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. Orwell
In the absence of orders, Go kill something Evil
In the absence of orders, Go kill something Evil
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
Why do they make them so you can see through them then? It would be a whole lot more rugged and compact if they made the front solid aluminum and shrank the size down to half as tall as it is. Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:
You don't need to see through it. |
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I see it as a specialized tool for competition shooters and elite military units.
My purposes are only as a private citizen doing CCW. The problem is I'd be trading better accuracy at distance for increased size, weight, cost, and complexity. I think Aaron at Sage Dynamics is a really neat guy. I've watched virtually all of his videos. However, I am NOT going to be hunting for a dot while someone's trying to kill me from 3 to 20 feet away. |
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My agency just approved red dots. Our new issued pistol will be Glock 17 Gen5 MOS (Replacing G22 Gen4). We're requiring a familiarization class, including lots of drawing from the holster, dry fire, and live fire, prior to shooting the qualification course. Purchasing the red dot, approved holster, and suppressor height sights is entirely up to the officer. You either spend the money 100% out of pocket and attend the class, or you just shoot a G17 Gen5 MOS with irons. Most of the younger guys are buying the red dot and attending the class. A lot of older guys are sticking with irons, along with all of our female officers. |
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
And you’ll be able to do this faster and more accurately with a MRDS under a wider variety of conditions. Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By eracer:
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more. |
The object is to have your sword wiped clean and resheathed before your enemy's head hits the ground.
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Dots are the next wave.
In comp I've seen both dots and irons go down. Ports ruin front sights. Dots will make you a better iron shooter IF you have a dot and FO front sight on another pistol make sure they are different colors. Seen guys brain fart and go dot mode on irons. my carry is irons, cause im broke |
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Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
Gun games and serious work are two differrent things. But hey, whatever twirls your beanie. If competitors are “chasing the dot”, how are they winning matches with optic equipped handguns? Conversely, if they’re not “chasing the dot”, what is happening in a competitive venue which is so different than a real world scenario? Please... educate me as to how these two are so different in terms of the ability to use a MRDS. Thanks. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By eracer:
OK. But why bother with the expense and the bulk? If 'A' works, why 'B?' Faster with increased levels of accuracy under a wide variety of conditions. Why do you commute with a newer car when a 1987 Ford Escort works for the task? |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
| To me the main negatives with mrds are the cost and added footprint. I think a 400 dollar mrds is going to be almost as reliable as irons but that's 400 plus mount. I don't trust the cheaper ones. Size and weight aren't horrible but your adding some extra area to get stuck on things and print on a edc gun. Not a huge deal but a negative. |
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Originally Posted By pajasonc:
To me the main negatives with mrds are the cost and added footprint. I think a 400 dollar mrds is going to be almost as reliable as irons but that's 400 plus mount. I don't trust the cheaper ones. Size and weight aren't horrible but your adding some extra area to get stuck on things and print on a edc gun. Not a huge deal but a negative. I'm just waiting on a RMR that isn't affected by the elements. |
"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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Originally Posted By 03RN: Really doesn't print. It's on an area that the size is pretty irrelevant. I'm just waiting on a RMR that isn't affected by the elements. Every picture I’ve seen has an integrated Pic-Rail mount, but people say it will also be available as a direct mount. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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There are more fudds here than I assumed.
Pistol RDS are faster. If they weren't, they wouldn't be on every open gun. Pistol RDS have been proven beneficial for the past 30+ years. Pistol RDS won't get you kilt in the streetz. Pistol RDS have a learning curve if you've dedicated your entire life to staring at the front sight and have a bad presentation. If you don't like them... cool, but if you try to make any argument outside of "I just don't want to invest in the time to learn how to use one" then you can just sit on the curb and be quiet. |
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
There are more fudds here than I assumed. Pistol RDS are faster. If they weren't, they wouldn't be on every open gun. Pistol RDS have been proven beneficial for the past 30+ years. Pistol RDS won't get you kilt in the streetz. Pistol RDS have a learning curve if you've dedicated your entire life to staring at the front sight and have a bad presentation. If you don't like them... cool, but if you try to make any argument outside of "I just don't want to invest in the time to learn how to use one" then you can just sit on the curb and be quiet. |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
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Originally Posted By eracer:
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more. I learned to get my speed up in a very few days. I ended up winning the class shoot off. My accuracy freaked out the instructors. At one point we fired on an 8 inch steel disk at 60 yards. I hit it using a 1991A1 compact pistol with a single shot. The range master for our class just said "Shit" when I did it. He was a Police Department range master in CA in his day job. |
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Originally Posted By brickeyee: After many years competing in 3-gun bullseye I went to Gunsite. I learned to get my speed up in a very few days. I ended up winning the class shoot off. My accuracy freaked out the instructors. At one point we fired on an 8 inch steel disk at 60 yards. I hit it using a 1991A1 compact pistol with a single shot. The range master for our class just said "Shit" when I did it. He was a Police Department range master in CA in his day job. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
| I can see the allure of a closed emitter red dot, but I've tried RMR's twice now on different glocks and they're just not for me. I prefer my irons, as I found trying to keep the dot steady was counter productive, and made me feel like Michael J Fox. I'm sure my muzzle moved just as much as when I was running irons, but the dot caused me to trip myself out after seeing how much it moved, and made my instability look 10x worse than it was |
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Originally Posted By 06jorkee:
I can see the allure of a closed emitter red dot, but I've tried RMR's twice now on different glocks and they're just not for me. I prefer my irons, as I found trying to keep the dot steady was counter productive, and made me feel like Michael J Fox. I'm sure my muzzle moved just as much as when I was running irons, but the dot caused me to trip myself out after seeing how much it moved, and made my instability look 10x worse than it was It's like someone that's always running late just throwing away all the clocks in their house. Interesting approach. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
There are more fudds here than I assumed. Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi. Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo? Call him a fudd. That'll show him. Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters. F - U - D - D. That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land. Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority. Use them if you want. Nobody really cares. Let everybody else keep doing what they want. No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something. |
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
There's the name calling. Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi. Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo? Call him a fudd. That'll show him. Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters. F - U - D - D. That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land. Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority. Use them if you want. Nobody really cares. Let everybody else keep doing what they want. No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something. Originally Posted By giantpune:
There's the name calling. Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi. Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo? Call him a fudd. That'll show him. Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters. F - U - D - D. That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land. Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority. Use them if you want. Nobody really cares. Let everybody else keep doing what they want. No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something. All the 'cool kids' have embraced the mini red dot pistol sights. Fads come and go......I think the red dot sight for pistols is the wave of the future. But, when you add up the pluses of current designs with minuses, I'm not ready to wade into that swamp just yet. |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
There's the name calling. Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi. Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo? Call him a fudd. That'll show him. Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters. F - U - D - D. That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land. Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority. Use them if you want. Nobody really cares. Let everybody else keep doing what they want. No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Welp, lets just shut it down. |
Make sure you tell guys that the 1911 is a pain in the ass - Larry Vickers
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Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Are you saying people like Bob Vogel aren't fast and accurate? But the fact remains that a MRDS provides a tangible performance increase over an above irons and the overwhelming majority of arguments against them are based upon myth, lack of experience, or flat out laziness. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
| And more importantly, when once you fully embrace the rmr lifestyle, you can't help but get in arguments online and resort to name calling with people who haven't gone all in on it. Because you know better than they do. And if they don't like it, they're a Nazi and a fudd. |
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Well, the OP set the pace for this threat being a mud slinging match. Again, you can be plenty fast with irons. The .1 second you shave off your first shot isn't changing a gunfight. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Target focus. Better accuracy across the board. Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance. Im converting people left and right. When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there. If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet. and forgot your light on your gun.
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callmenoshie: "saying that females have the potential to be "bat shit crazy" is like saying the sky has the potential to be blue."
XCRmonger: "I've seen German Shit Porn that was sexier."
XCRmonger: "I've seen German Shit Porn that was sexier."
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Originally Posted By ken_mays:
What differences in times are you guys seeing with RDSs vs irons on a given COF? Obviously USPSA Open shooters can clean a course faster than Limited shooters, but they have frame mounted RDSs and don't have to reacquire the dot after each shot. There is no reacquiring the dot on a slide mounted optic. It is definitely easier with a frame mount and compensator but if you lose the dot that's all on you. |
| It's just a matter of money. Plus pistol red dots are still kind of immature. I'm holding out hope that the Acro will solve its battery life issues. When my current Glock 19 wears out in about twenty years I guess I'll switch. |
Just because I live in my parents' basement doesn't make my unfounded opinions any less valid.
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Originally Posted By ken_mays:
What differences in times are you guys seeing with RDSs vs irons on a given COF? Obviously USPSA Open shooters can clean a course faster than Limited shooters, but they have frame mounted RDSs and don't have to reacquire the dot after each shot. I run higher HF with CO than Limited. |
If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Kinda. It's not really a skill thing, so much as it is a round count and practice thing. Someone who has spent a great deal of time under irons isn't going to pick up a RDS-equipped pistol and suddenly be faster. I see this all the time in classes. New students show up with a shiny new MOS glock running RDS and the other shooters with irons run circles around them. I will say that at distances out past 20m, the RDS has a huge accuracy and speed advantage for pretty much anyone, though. Any given person can be good with either, given adequate practice. When we started 50 yd zeros, I was surprised to see my groups were smaller then or equal to many who used 6x-8x power. I'm still on the fence...I was looking at upgrading to a Gen5 G19FS...now I'm thinking aftermarket slide for my Gen 3 G19 and a RMR. |
Just Drop... Buckethead!
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Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Here's a quote I found from that fudd, Ken Hackathorn. No trainer at that level should be accepted without question, even if their opinion should be weighed and considered. Steve Fisher disagrees with him. Choosing one or the other leaves you picking personality instead of weighing actual capabilities and considering multiple opinions. Sort of "in a multitude of counselors there is safety". |
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Originally Posted By Harv24:
Another good example is a carbine with a red dot vs. a LPVO...I took a class earlier this year where a lot of guys were running magnified optics. When we started 50 yd zeros, I was surprised to see my groups were smaller then or equal to many who used 6x-8x power. I'm still on the fence...I was looking at upgrading to a Gen5 G19FS...now I'm thinking aftermarket slide for my Gen 3 G19 and a RMR. Working a LPVO on a VTAC barricade will eat you if you haven't earned it with reps. |
"People don't think Cola Warrior be like it is but it do..." - George Washington
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Originally Posted By army75th:
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad |
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| I enjoy my Glock with the red dot at the range it’s very fast and accurate. I just make the personal choice to carry a Glock with irons because I don't like the sparkle and dot jumping around in a rain storm. Rains a lot in Florida. I’m not saying one still couldn’t make hits with it, I can. It’s just personally distracting to me. With cowitness iron sights the battery dying is not of great concern. I hope they continue to evolve and get better. |
Those who beat swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't. --Benjamin Franklin.