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Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:14:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:

Oh I'm not arguing. I have a calendar reminder set up for that. I'm just answering the OP's question from an average carry person perspective.

Debating the speed of irons vs. red dot is not realistic. I'm faster on irons than 90% of people on dots, but I train constantly. If someone trained on a dot more than I do, they'd be faster, but not because it's irons or dots.

Make sense? It's more operator oriented than hardware, so it's impossible to factually assign a winner since no true comparison can be achieved.
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To say that you are faster with irons than someone else with an optic may be true... But that’s a far cry from “irons are faster”.

Given equal skill level, MRDS is faster
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:15:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:21:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:22:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:

They are. I think cops are a great use-case for dots, honestly. I expect gun nerd cops would probably put the rounds out that are required to become proficient with the RDS. Average cops get the obligatory 50 rounds a year and would spend 20 seconds looking for a dot in a real UOF situation.
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Haha, you hit that one right on the head.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:50:19 PM EST
Well, the only time I've used a red dot was at cola warrior Texas.

I did like it.

Does milt sparks make the VS2 for red dots?  That's my issue.

Until then, practice with what I have and seemed to work for the last 150 years.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 5:42:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
Why do they make them so you can see through them then?  It would be a whole lot more rugged and compact if they made the front solid aluminum and shrank the size down to half as tall as it is.
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

You don't need to see through it.
Why do they make them so you can see through them then?  It would be a whole lot more rugged and compact if they made the front solid aluminum and shrank the size down to half as tall as it is.
And those who have only one good eye.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 9:58:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Irons are faster, cheaper and more reliable.

Simple really.
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Until you get old.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 11:39:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2019 11:40:08 PM EST by sigman68]
I think the red dot is a great shooting aid, love the Aimpoint on my AR, but the reliability isn't there for me yet and I can still shoot irons pretty well.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 12:52:35 AM EST
I see it as a specialized tool for competition shooters and elite military units.

My purposes are only as a private citizen doing CCW.

The problem is I'd be trading better accuracy at distance for increased size, weight, cost, and complexity.

I think Aaron at Sage Dynamics is a really neat guy.  I've watched virtually all of his videos.

However, I am NOT going to be hunting for a dot while someone's trying to kill me from 3 to 20 feet away.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 1:36:37 AM EST
My agency just approved red dots. Our new issued pistol will be Glock 17 Gen5 MOS (Replacing G22 Gen4).

We're requiring a familiarization class, including lots of drawing from the holster, dry fire, and live fire, prior to shooting the qualification course. Purchasing the red dot, approved holster, and suppressor height sights is entirely up to the officer. You either spend the money 100% out of pocket and attend the class, or you just shoot a G17 Gen5 MOS with irons.

Most of the younger guys are buying the red dot and attending the class. A lot of older guys are sticking with irons, along with all of our female officers.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 1:47:09 AM EST
If you have a dot or similar on your rifle, but consider it a gimmick on a pistol, how does one square that up?

Link Posted: 10/25/2019 3:44:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By turbo_infidel:
If you have a dot or similar on your rifle, but consider it a gimmick on a pistol, how does one square that up?

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Pistols aren't rifles.  I wonder how many guys are running LPVOs on their handgun?
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 5:12:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
And you’ll be able to do this faster and more accurately with a MRDS under a wider variety of conditions.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By eracer:
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more.
And you’ll be able to do this faster and more accurately with a MRDS under a wider variety of conditions.
OK.  But why bother with the expense and the bulk?  If 'A' works, why 'B?'
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 6:37:18 AM EST
Dots are the next wave.

In comp I've seen both dots and irons go down.  Ports ruin front sights.

Dots will make you a better iron shooter

IF you have a dot and FO front sight on another pistol make sure they are different colors.  Seen guys brain fart and go dot mode on irons.

my carry is irons, cause im broke
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 6:42:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:

Serious question:

Do you think competition shooters are “chasing the dot”?

Why or why not?
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Gun games and serious work are two differrent things.   But hey, whatever twirls your beanie.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 7:10:26 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Holdemdown:

Gun games and serious work are two differrent things.   But hey, whatever twirls your beanie.
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Having been on the two way range and currently an active action sports competitor, in genuinely curious as to how you think shooting fast and accurately in a competitive venue is different than shooting fast and accurately in a real world event.

If competitors are “chasing the dot”, how are they winning matches with optic equipped handguns?

Conversely, if they’re not “chasing the dot”, what is happening in a competitive venue which is so different than a real world scenario?

Please... educate me as to how these two are so different in terms of the ability to use a MRDS.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 7:12:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By eracer:

OK.  But why bother with the expense and the bulk?  If 'A' works, why 'B?'
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Because they work better.

Faster with increased levels of accuracy under a wide variety of conditions.

Why do you commute with a newer car when a 1987 Ford Escort works for the task?
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 7:13:22 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 762AR25:

Pistols aren't rifles.  I wonder how many guys are running LPVOs on their handgun?
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Which would be a valid comment if we were discussing LPVOs in handguns.

But we’re not.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 8:40:59 AM EST
To me the main negatives with mrds are the cost and added footprint.  I think a 400 dollar mrds is going to be almost as reliable as irons but that's 400 plus mount.  I don't trust the cheaper ones.  Size and weight aren't horrible but your adding some extra area to get stuck on things and print on a edc gun.  Not a huge deal but a negative.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 8:51:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By pajasonc:
To me the main negatives with mrds are the cost and added footprint.  I think a 400 dollar mrds is going to be almost as reliable as irons but that's 400 plus mount.  I don't trust the cheaper ones.  Size and weight aren't horrible but your adding some extra area to get stuck on things and print on a edc gun.  Not a huge deal but a negative.
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Really doesn't print. It's on an area that the size is pretty irrelevant.

I'm just waiting on a RMR that isn't affected by the elements.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:03:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 03RN:

Really doesn't print. It's on an area that the size is pretty irrelevant.

I'm just waiting on a RMR that isn't affected by the elements.
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Interested to see what Holosun does with the 509.

Every picture I’ve seen has an integrated Pic-Rail mount, but people say it will also be available as a direct mount.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 2:34:52 PM EST
There are more fudds here than I assumed.

Pistol RDS are faster. If they weren't, they wouldn't be on every open gun.
Pistol RDS have been proven beneficial for the past 30+ years.
Pistol RDS won't get you kilt in the streetz.
Pistol RDS have a learning curve if you've dedicated your entire life to staring at the front sight and have a bad presentation.

If you don't like them... cool, but if you try to make any argument outside of "I just don't want to invest in the time to learn how to use one" then you can just sit on the curb and be quiet.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 3:24:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
There are more fudds here than I assumed.

Pistol RDS are faster. If they weren't, they wouldn't be on every open gun.
Pistol RDS have been proven beneficial for the past 30+ years.
Pistol RDS won't get you kilt in the streetz.
Pistol RDS have a learning curve if you've dedicated your entire life to staring at the front sight and have a bad presentation.

If you don't like them... cool, but if you try to make any argument outside of "I just don't want to invest in the time to learn how to use one" then you can just sit on the curb and be quiet.
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I think cost is a pretty legitimate argument.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 3:40:55 PM EST
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Originally Posted By eracer:
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more.
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After many years competing in 3-gun bullseye I went to Gunsite.
I learned to get my speed up in a very few days.

I ended up winning the class shoot off.
My accuracy freaked out the instructors.

At one point we fired on an 8 inch steel disk at 60 yards.
I hit it using a 1991A1 compact pistol with a single shot.

The range master for our class just said "Shit" when I did it.
He was a Police Department range master in CA in his day job.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 4:00:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By brickeyee:

After many years competing in 3-gun bullseye I went to Gunsite.
I learned to get my speed up in a very few days.

I ended up winning the class shoot off.
My accuracy freaked out the instructors.

At one point we fired on an 8 inch steel disk at 60 yards.
I hit it using a 1991A1 compact pistol with a single shot.

The range master for our class just said "Shit" when I did it.
He was a Police Department range master in CA in his day job.
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Yes... freaked out. I’m sure they still require therapy.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 4:27:50 PM EST
I can see the allure of a closed emitter red dot, but I've tried RMR's twice now on different glocks and they're just not for me. I prefer my irons, as I found trying to keep the dot steady was counter productive, and made me feel like Michael J Fox. I'm sure my muzzle moved just as much as when I was running irons, but the dot caused me to trip myself out after seeing how much it moved, and made my instability look 10x worse than it was
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 4:30:32 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 06jorkee:
I can see the allure of a closed emitter red dot, but I've tried RMR's twice now on different glocks and they're just not for me. I prefer my irons, as I found trying to keep the dot steady was counter productive, and made me feel like Michael J Fox. I'm sure my muzzle moved just as much as when I was running irons, but the dot caused me to trip myself out after seeing how much it moved, and made my instability look 10x worse than it was
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So instead of training and improving, you just ditched the indicator of muzzle movement.

It's like someone that's always running late just throwing away all the clocks in their house.

Interesting approach.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 7:14:48 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DAVE_M:
There are more fudds here than I assumed.
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There's the name calling.

Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi.  Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo?  Call him a fudd.  That'll show him.  Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters.  F - U - D - D.  That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land.

Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority.  Use them if you want.  Nobody really cares.  Let everybody else keep doing what they want.  No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 8:28:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By giantpune:

There's the name calling.

Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi.  Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo?  Call him a fudd.  That'll show him.  Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters.  F - U - D - D.  That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land.

Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority.  Use them if you want.  Nobody really cares.  Let everybody else keep doing what they want.  No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something.
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Originally Posted By giantpune:

There's the name calling.

Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi.  Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo?  Call him a fudd.  That'll show him.  Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters.  F - U - D - D.  That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land.

Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority.  Use them if you want.  Nobody really cares.  Let everybody else keep doing what they want.  No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something.
Here's a quote I found from that fudd, Ken Hackathorn.

All the 'cool kids' have embraced the mini red dot pistol sights. Fads come and go......I think the red dot sight for pistols is the wave of the future. But, when you add up the pluses of current designs with minuses, I'm not ready to wade into that swamp just yet.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:02:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By giantpune:

There's the name calling.

Fudd is the firearm community's version of the lefty's calling everybody they don't agree with a nazi.  Somebody doesn't like your tactical operator gizmo?  Call him a fudd.  That'll show him.  Assert your high speed, low drag dominance with 4 simple letters.  F - U - D - D.  That's all it takes to win any debate in firearms land.

Instead of acting like that, how about you just accept that by jumping on board with whatever gadgets and gizmos your instructors got you on, you are in the great minority.  Use them if you want.  Nobody really cares.  Let everybody else keep doing what they want.  No need to pull the fudd card out to try and win something.
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It's cool. Shooting fast and accurately isn't for everyone.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:09:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2019 9:10:13 PM EST by Bradd_D]
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:

It's cool. Shooting fast and accurately isn't for everyone.
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The same could be said for educating without insulting.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:39:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
The same could be said for educating without insulting.
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Except I care about being fast and accurate and IDGAF about being insulting.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:46:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:

Except I care about being fast and accurate and IDGAF about being insulting.
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Are you saying people like Bob Vogel aren't fast and accurate?
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:47:37 PM EST


Welp, lets just shut it down.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 9:50:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2019 9:50:33 PM EST by Bradd_D]
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Originally Posted By Marksman14:


Welp, lets just shut it down.
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I can say that I'm interested in exploring whether or not the concept is something I want to pursue, but the condescension does get old.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 10:00:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Are you saying people like Bob Vogel aren't fast and accurate?
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No... And I went Master with irons, too.

But the fact remains that a MRDS provides a tangible performance increase over an above irons and the overwhelming majority of arguments against them are based upon myth, lack of experience, or flat out laziness.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 10:08:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2019 8:24:07 AM EST by giantpune]
And more importantly, when once you fully embrace the rmr lifestyle, you can't help but get in arguments online and resort to name calling with people who haven't gone all in on it.  Because you know better than they do.  And if they don't like it, they're a Nazi and a fudd.
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 11:42:45 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2019 11:50:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
Target focus.
Better accuracy across the board.
Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance.

Im converting people left and right.

When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there.

If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet.
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you misspelled light in your OP. and forgot your light on your gun.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 12:00:55 AM EST
What differences in times are you guys seeing with RDSs vs irons on a given COF?

Obviously USPSA Open shooters can clean a course faster than Limited shooters, but they have frame mounted RDSs and don't have to reacquire the dot after each shot.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 12:48:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ken_mays:
What differences in times are you guys seeing with RDSs vs irons on a given COF?

Obviously USPSA Open shooters can clean a course faster than Limited shooters, but they have frame mounted RDSs and don't have to reacquire the dot after each shot.
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Not the easiest comparison with minor vs major scoring but max michel won CO and jj racaza won limited at the most recent nationals. Max was faster overall by a few seconds and had 30+ more alpha hits but in combined jj won by .10% because of major scoring.
There is no reacquiring the dot on a slide mounted optic. It is definitely easier with a frame mount and compensator but if you lose the dot that's all on you.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 2:54:02 AM EST
It's just a matter of money. Plus pistol red dots are still kind of immature. I'm holding out hope that the Acro will solve its battery life issues. When my current Glock 19 wears out in about twenty years I guess I'll switch.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 9:01:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ken_mays:
What differences in times are you guys seeing with RDSs vs irons on a given COF?

Obviously USPSA Open shooters can clean a course faster than Limited shooters, but they have frame mounted RDSs and don't have to reacquire the dot after each shot.
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Carry Optics compared to Production I’m seeing between a 5%-10% increase in speed depending upon stage design. The biggest difference however, is in accuracy and the A/C ratio is significantly better.  Sometimes I’ll go several matches without a Delta.

I run higher HF with CO than Limited.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 10:04:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:

Kinda.

It's not really a skill thing, so much as it is a round count and practice thing.

Someone who has spent a great deal of time under irons isn't going to pick up a RDS-equipped pistol and suddenly be faster. I see this all the time in classes. New students show up with a shiny new MOS glock running RDS and the other shooters with irons run circles around them.

I will say that at distances out past 20m, the RDS has a huge accuracy and speed advantage for pretty much anyone, though.

Any given person can be good with either, given adequate practice.
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Another good example is a carbine with a red dot vs. a LPVO...I took a class earlier this year where a lot of guys were running magnified optics.
When we started 50 yd zeros, I was surprised to see my groups were smaller then or equal to many who used 6x-8x power.

I'm still on the fence...I was looking at upgrading to a Gen5 G19FS...now I'm thinking aftermarket slide for my Gen 3 G19 and a RMR.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 10:59:21 AM EST
P&S ModCast 208 - The Pistol RDS
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 11:00:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
Here's a quote I found from that fudd, Ken Hackathorn.
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If Hackathorn says air isn't cool to breath, are you gonna suffocate?

Pistol RDS have been around for three decades and people continue to argue that it's a "fad."
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 11:38:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2019 11:39:10 AM EST by TCBA_Joe]
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 11:41:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 1:42:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By army75th:
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad
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USPSA results say you are wrong.
Link Posted: 10/26/2019 2:22:06 PM EST
I enjoy my Glock with the red dot at the range it’s very fast and accurate. I just make the personal choice to carry a Glock with irons because I don't like the sparkle and dot jumping around in a rain storm. Rains a lot in Florida. I’m not saying one still couldn’t make hits with it, I can. It’s just personally distracting to me. With cowitness iron sights the battery dying is not of great concern. I hope they continue to evolve and get better.
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