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Link Posted: 10/23/2019 11:20:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Marksman14:
Took a class with Sage Dynamics.

Opened my eyes, and Aaron is one of the best instructors I've ever worked with.

You're either willing to train and learn how to use the system, or you aren't.  If you aren't, don't bother.  All the gripes I hear about the concept are from people who haven't put in any serious effort, and given up.

If you are willing, it's superior on virtually every level.   RMR Type 2 for duty/carry use, change your battery once a year.  Simple.
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I’d second all of this. If you’re willing to put in the work, the juice is absolutely worth the squeeze.

First time I ran dryfire drills with one it was “ok... this is slow and I hate it.”

After a week it became “There might be something to this.”

A couple of days after that it became “I WANT MRDS ON EVERY HANDGUN I OWN.”

The problem is, most people are simply lazy and therefore, make excuses rather than train.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 11:31:58 AM EST
Here's my contrarian take.

An optic is just another piece of flair with which average gun carriers can bedazzle the gun.

Average gun carriers love hardware solutions.

It's not going to make an appreciable performance change if training doesn't change proportionally to the desired change.

If you're a low performance pistol guy, you're using a dot because it's cool/trendy/perceived to be a performance gain versus an actual gain.

Lest anyone misconstrue my argument, I acknowledge that Red dots have advantages over iron sights.  But it's all potential advantage until training transforms it to actual advantage.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 11:59:16 AM EST
Here are a few reasons I could think of for why people would refrain from RDS on pistols...

1. Cost.Initial startup costs require an investment and commitment (whether we're talking a Glock MOS and a "budget" optic or a custom milling job with refinishing and a high end optic ) than some can afford or simply aren't willing to pay.

2. Irons have worked for a long time. Iron sights have been around longer, they don't require batteries, and they aren't as fragile as RDS.

3. The Learning Curve. The learning curve associated with RDS ; zeroing, holdovers, re-learning threat focus vs. sight focus, etc. May be too steep for those not willing to put in the time and effort. Also, the discipline required when it comes to refreshing batteries, cleaning and maintaining the optic, and confirming zero on a regular basis could be too much for some.

4. Some people are set in their ways. Some people either refuse to see the point of are resistant to change. I was guilty of this. When my unit was issued M68 CCO Aimpoints on my first deployment in 2006, I thought they were a gimmick and didn't use one. Then I saw the light in what I was missing when I was forced to mount one on my M4 and carry it on my second deployment in 2009.

Regardless...

I have two RMR equipped pistols for duty and off duty carry. I'm working on having a G20 milled for an RMR for possible handgun hunting in the future...
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 12:38:31 PM EST
I will likely try out a red dot again but only one with a sealed/closed emitter and if it mounts forward of the ejection port.

But even that isn't solid as I'd like to keep things simple and the same across the board since I don't have enough free time train in several different ways.  My range time is a joke as it is already.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 12:40:35 PM EST
Irons still work for me.  They don't break, are much smaller, don't need batteries, I don't ever have to turn them on or off, and they usually come with the gun, so less expense, and they are less likely to snag on things when drawn from concealed carry.

For competition shooting, I can certainly see the advantage of an optic for things like plate shooting at 25 yards and other match items.  For CCW, I'll stick with tritium iron sights for now.

I'm glad OP is happy with optics.  I have friends who have pistols with them mounted, but few of them use the optic mounted pistols for daily carry.  A couple have tried them, but returned to iron sights for daily carry, and kept the optics for matches.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 1:44:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Genin:
Irons still work for me.  They don't break, are much smaller, don't need batteries, I don't ever have to turn them on or off, and they usually come with the gun, so less expense, and they are less likely to snag on things when drawn from concealed carry.

For competition shooting, I can certainly see the advantage of an optic for things like plate shooting at 25 yards and other match items.  For CCW, I'll stick with tritium iron sights for now.

I'm glad OP is happy with optics.  I have friends who have pistols with them mounted, but few of them use the optic mounted pistols for daily carry.  A couple have tried them, but returned to iron sights for daily carry, and kept the optics for matches.
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When I read comments like this, it’s easy to tell who doesn’t really have any serious time with a MRDS.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 2:22:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 2:35:16 PM EST by Marksman14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Genin:
Irons still work for me.  They don't break, are much smaller, don't need batteries, I don't ever have to turn them on or off, and they usually come with the gun, so less expense, and they are less likely to snag on things when drawn from concealed carry.

For competition shooting, I can certainly see the advantage of an optic for things like plate shooting at 25 yards and other match items.  For CCW, I'll stick with tritium iron sights for now.

I'm glad OP is happy with optics.  I have friends who have pistols with them mounted, but few of them use the optic mounted pistols for daily carry.  A couple have tried them, but returned to iron sights for daily carry, and kept the optics for matches.
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I've seen rear iron sights get knocked off center from the same hits RMR's shrug off like nothing happened.

These things are a hell of a lot more durable than people think.

Also, just took some pistols out for cleaning.  MOS Glocks.  Both have round 500 rounds on them from the last cleaning (which included the RMR lens).  Sure enough, theres oil and grime and crap on the lens....

...Sure enough, if you target focus like you're supposed to, you can't see any of that stuff and it works just fine.  Go figure.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 2:47:11 PM EST
Pistols without optics - why bother?

Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years.

I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new.

Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics.

Use what you like.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 2:51:52 PM EST
I'm never looking back.

I realize I was always balancing speed vs accuracy and was point shooting when stressed.

After getting used to the dot.. which took some time admittedly, my accuracy is way up..

Link Posted: 10/23/2019 2:55:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 3:00:15 PM EST by Holdemdown]
Found myself chasing the dot.  For competition sure, for carry no.

I think it's more of a gimmick for optics manufacturers, holster makers, gun manufacturers, and instructors to sell stuff.  It's become quite the fad.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:17:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
Found myself chasing the dot.  For competition sure, for carry no.

I think it's more of a gimmick for optics manufacturers, holster makers, gun manufacturers, and instructors to sell stuff.  It's become quite the fad.
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Serious question:

Do you think competition shooters are “chasing the dot”?

Why or why not?
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:28:00 PM EST
I'm sure I'll get one down the line.  But right now better thing to spend money on rather than buying an optics ready pistol then a decent optic.  That's a grand I can spend better right now.

Does using irons become tricky after adapting to using a red dot?
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:37:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 3:38:18 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bigern314:
I'm sure I'll get one down the line.  But right now better thing to spend money on rather than buying an optics ready pistol then a decent optic.  That's a grand I can spend better right now.

Does using irons become tricky after adapting to using a red dot?
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Using a dot will actually improve your skills with irons as you will sharpen your presentation and make you more aware of muzzle movement.

Hard core Limited shooters will shoot Open for a couple of months and got back to Limited just for that reason.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:54:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 3:56:13 PM EST by DrDover]
tried rds... sold the glock 17 with rds and went back to my iron sighted M&P..... Was not interested in spending tons of time and ammo learning the ins and outs when irons are more than enough for my apparently now poor skill set since I don't like rds. I guess yall can just call me fudd now... some one pass the revolvers and lever actions since I am not interested in the rds.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:58:10 PM EST
When I get out of the city I'll look into it more, then I'll be able to shoot every day and learn the system.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:11:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Holdemdown:
Found myself chasing the dot.  For competition sure, for carry no.

I think it's more of a gimmick for optics manufacturers, holster makers, gun manufacturers, and instructors to sell stuff.  It's become quite the fad.
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So because you couldn't figure the system out and had to chase the dot, it's a fad and a gimmick?

Interesting.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:14:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DrDover:
tried rds... sold the glock 17 with rds and went back to my iron sighted M&P..... Was not interested in spending tons of time and ammo learning the ins and outs when irons are more than enough for my apparently now poor skill set since I don't like rds. I guess yall can just call me fudd now... some one pass the revolvers and lever actions since I am not interested in the rds.
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That doesn't made you a fudd.  You were honest with yourself and decided it wasn't worth the time, $$ and effort.

Nothing wrong with that at all.  What is important is that you didn't dismiss the idea solely because you realized there was more to it than you wanted to put into it like many people here are doing.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:17:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Marksman14:

So because you couldn't figure the system out and had to chase the dot, it's a fad and a gimmick?

Interesting.
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I’m wondering how many competitive shooters are winning matches if chasing the dot is such a problem.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 5:44:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
So wrong. I see the most benefits in dynamic shooting / shooting on the move / competition / drills.

I could care less about shooting a tiny group. But it's easier too.

As for CCW.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/113559/2B8B18C2-F84D-465C-A505-57CA48FE6BEB_jpeg-1134056.JPG
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Yeah I haven't figured out what printing issue the optic adds. I'm fat enough to conceal a G34 with RMR.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 5:51:00 PM EST
For target/competition red dots are great. For CCW it’s a waste for me because I draw top-of-the-holster and Fire 7-10rds as I bring my arm up so by the time I’m up to aim the threat is dead.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:40:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 6:41:11 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 10mmillie:
For target/competition red dots are great. For CCW it’s a waste for me because I draw top-of-the-holster and Fire 7-10rds as I bring my arm up so by the time I’m up to aim the threat is dead.
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Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:44:01 PM EST
If I were to send my Glock 17 off to be milled for a red dot, could a plate be made in the event I decide I don't care for it and I want to fill the cut?
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:46:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 10mmillie:
For target/competition red dots are great. For CCW it’s a waste for me because I draw top-of-the-holster and Fire 7-10rds as I bring my arm up so by the time I’m up to aim the threat is dead.
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So you don't like red dots because you don't aim in self defense scenarios?

I literally don't know what to say.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:47:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
If I were to send my Glock 17 off to be milled for a red dot, could a plate be made in the event I decide I don't care for it and I want to fill the cut?
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Plenty of companies sell caps that can fill the optic cut if you decided against it down the line!
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:54:57 PM EST
I'm staying with irons for now.  I have many reasons for staying with them.  Mostly because they still work for me, and don't require new expenditures or permanent modification of a firearm.

Admittedly, my time spent with dot type optics (scopes are a different critter) is limited, and I haven't wanted to invest the time and expense to get used to them just to see if I like them.  They clearly help competition shooters, and plenty of other people like them, so I think it is great for them.  I have never felt the need to tell other shooters what they should, or shouldn't like.  If someone likes optics, that is terrific, same for someone who wants to stay with iron sights.

I wonder how much of this discussion could really be boiled down to personal preference and how much of it is either "you have to like what I like", or "stop liking something I don't like".  I readily admit my reason to stay with iron sights is personal preference, nothing more.  Well, that and I'm cheap.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 6:57:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
If I were to send my Glock 17 off to be milled for a red dot, could a plate be made in the event I decide I don't care for it and I want to fill the cut?
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Try a Brownells slide, sell it if you hate it, but you won’t.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:05:21 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Genin:
I'm staying with irons for now.  I have many reasons for staying with them.  Mostly because they still work for me, and don't require new expenditures or permanent modification of a firearm.

Admittedly, my time spent with dot type optics (scopes are a different critter) is limited, and I haven't wanted to invest the time and expense to get used to them just to see if I like them.  They clearly help competition shooters, and plenty of other people like them, so I think it is great for them.  I have never felt the need to tell other shooters what they should, or shouldn't like.  If someone likes optics, that is terrific, same for someone who wants to stay with iron sights.

I wonder how much of this discussion could really be boiled down to personal preference and how much of it is either "you have to like what I like", or "stop liking something I don't like".  I readily admit my reason to stay with iron sights is personal preference, nothing more.  Well, that and I'm cheap.
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No... For me it comes down to: "This technology provides a clear and demonstrated performance increase in terms of accuracy and speed at virtually all skills levels.  At the same time, most of the arguments against them are based upon myth and rumor."

For actual data, read the Sage Dynamics White Paper on MRDS use.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:27:39 PM EST
I'm betting the Garland, Tx cop who shot the terrorists from 50 yards did not have optics.

Might practice more.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:32:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
I'm betting the Garland, Tx cop who shot the terrorists from 50 yards did not have optics.

Might practice more.
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I'm failing to see how this has any relevance to discussing the potential advantages of a MRDS on a pistol.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:37:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 7:51:09 PM EST by TCBA_Joe]
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 7:48:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 7:49:54 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
I'm betting the Garland, Tx cop who shot the terrorists from 50 yards did not have optics.

Might practice more.
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I've made C-Zone hits at 150 meters lots of times on the clock with irons.

I do it faster and with a higher degree of certainty with a RDS.

Your argument is nonsensical.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:01:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 8:02:35 PM EST by dwhitehorne]
I would be interested to know how many of those in this thread that don’t like the red dot on a pistol run some type of optic on their rifle. Did they think the same about changing from irons to red dot on a rifle and why?  David
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:12:56 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Literally it did not make me any better in any way sorry I am better than you.
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Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
Concealment issues with a dot that adds very little to the profile and is in an area that's pretty much dead space anyway?

ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun?
Literally it did not make me any better in any way sorry I am better than you.
Wow. The tech forums have fallen low.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:29:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dwhitehorne:
I would be interested to know how many of those in this thread that don’t like the red dot on a pistol run some type of optic on their rifle. Did they think the same about changing from irons to red dot on a rifle and why?  David
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I put a red dot on damn near everything. Be it rifle or pistol.  About the only thing I won't put one on in my CCW gun.

I don't walk around all day and work outdoors getting sweaty and dirty with a rifle stuffed down my pants.  
My rifle red dots have bikini covers and flip up caps that keep them clean.
My rifle is already really fucking huge and I'm not trying to hide it in my pants.  A red dot on a CCW gun makes a noticeable difference.
When I fire the rifle, the red dot is significantly further away from anything coming back out of the ejection port.
I plan on using my CCW gun within 10-20 yards.  At those distances, I'm more than capable of hitting what I'm trying to hit without any red dot.  The rifle, I'm shooting 5x-10x as far away.

My question is why is it when one of these threads pops up with "if you dont run a XXX on your gun, you're a dummy who just needs more training"?  Red dot, flashlight, extra magazine, tactical jockstrap, doesn't matter.  If you aren't running with whatever the piece of equipment is that the thread is about, you get ganged up on and told you need to go to a proper class to learn to depend on said piece of equipment.  If you really think about it, probably significantly less than 1% of defensive handguns have a red dot on them.  How many people do you think are shot and killed every year by a gun without a red dot on it?  My guess is a shitload.  Just because you guys went to an operator class and you really like red dots and you got good at using them doesn't mean every other gun is less deadly.  The people using red dots are still a very, very, very small minority.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 11:46:10 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
No... For me it comes down to: "This technology provides a clear and demonstrated performance increase in terms of accuracy and speed at virtually all skills levels.  At the same time, most of the arguments against them are based upon myth and rumor."

For actual data, read the Sage Dynamics White Paper on MRDS use.
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Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:
Originally Posted By Genin:
I'm staying with irons for now.  I have many reasons for staying with them.  Mostly because they still work for me, and don't require new expenditures or permanent modification of a firearm.

Admittedly, my time spent with dot type optics (scopes are a different critter) is limited, and I haven't wanted to invest the time and expense to get used to them just to see if I like them.  They clearly help competition shooters, and plenty of other people like them, so I think it is great for them.  I have never felt the need to tell other shooters what they should, or shouldn't like.  If someone likes optics, that is terrific, same for someone who wants to stay with iron sights.

I wonder how much of this discussion could really be boiled down to personal preference and how much of it is either "you have to like what I like", or "stop liking something I don't like".  I readily admit my reason to stay with iron sights is personal preference, nothing more.  Well, that and I'm cheap.
No... For me it comes down to: "This technology provides a clear and demonstrated performance increase in terms of accuracy and speed at virtually all skills levels.  At the same time, most of the arguments against them are based upon myth and rumor."

For actual data, read the Sage Dynamics White Paper on MRDS use.
Of course if you like the red dot, use one.  Everyone has a nose, an opinion, and personal preferences.  The great part about a free economy and available choices is that we don't all have to want or buy the same thing.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 12:05:42 PM EST
This discussion reminds me of threads on appendix carry - meaning very polarizing,
In the appendix threads the advocates label those who don’t appendix carry as obsolete old incompetents,
And those opposed insist you will shoot yourself in the leg or testicles.
I shoot very well with iron sights and honestly don’t doubt with dedicated effort using a red dot I could be better in some way ( speed accuracy or both)
But whichever you choose to do go forth enjoy it train it but we don’t have to start devolving into “ if you don’t want a red dot you are a loser” commentary
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 12:25:06 PM EST
I'm not convinced it's worth the price of admission for me, but I am looking at it.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 12:30:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dwhitehorne:
I would be interested to know how many of those in this thread that don’t like the red dot on a pistol run some type of optic on their rifle. Did they think the same about changing from irons to red dot on a rifle and why?  David
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I always ran optics on my rifles, and I liked shooting with them more than with iron sights.  But, when we had to qualify  with and without the optical sights, I usually shot about the same score.

I've never run optics on a pistol, but I wouldn't call anyone who did, crazy.  I just never saw the need.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:25:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45-Seventy:

I've made C-Zone hits at 150 meters lots of times on the clock with irons.

I do it faster and with a higher degree of certainty with a RDS.

Your argument is nonsensical.
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Except the thread title says why bother without red dots.

Well, they are not a requirement for being competent with a pistol.

Thanks though, glad you are faster.  Did you sell all of your non dot pistols?

If not, why not, surely they are worthless.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:31:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
There's your issue.

As for fad... Not so much. People said the same stuff about optics on rifles.

Chasing the dot is indicative of a poor natural point of aim and draw presentation.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/108584/2eg30u-945213.jpg
If you shoot M&Ps proficiently and you pick up a Glock and can't find the dot, it's not the optic, it's the NPOA for that firearm.

Irons are easier to cheat and chase.

As you age, you may learn to appreciate RDS because they can assist with seeing the sights. Lots of older postings shooters have said RDS have let them shoot handguns again after having issues seeing the sights for so many years.

SOCOM is phasing in standard issue RMRs.

Every major Fed LE contract in recent years, other than the FBI speced a pistol with optic mount. Local LE agencies are moving in that direction too.

Better sighting in variable lighting conditions with WMLs, threat focus while on the sights, and accuracy at distance are all worth learning to use RMRs for.
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Originally Posted By TCBA_Joe:
Originally Posted By army75th:
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad
There's your issue.

As for fad... Not so much. People said the same stuff about optics on rifles.

Chasing the dot is indicative of a poor natural point of aim and draw presentation.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/108584/2eg30u-945213.jpg
Originally Posted By DrDover:
tried rds... sold the glock 17 with rds and went back to my iron sighted M&P..... Was not interested in spending tons of time and ammo learning the ins and outs when irons are more than enough for my apparently now poor skill set since I don't like rds. I guess yall can just call me fudd now... some one pass the revolvers and lever actions since I am not interested in the rds.
If you shoot M&Ps proficiently and you pick up a Glock and can't find the dot, it's not the optic, it's the NPOA for that firearm.

Irons are easier to cheat and chase.

Originally Posted By Strela:
Pistols without optics - why bother?

Because everyone doesn't like the same thing and people have been adequately dispatching other people with iron sighted handguns for many years.

I'm fine with progress, but I'm at the age that I'm not willing to put in the time and expense to master something new.

Also, I've not seen a wholesale rush in LE and the military to adopt pistols with optics.

Use what you like.
As you age, you may learn to appreciate RDS because they can assist with seeing the sights. Lots of older postings shooters have said RDS have let them shoot handguns again after having issues seeing the sights for so many years.

SOCOM is phasing in standard issue RMRs.

Every major Fed LE contract in recent years, other than the FBI speced a pistol with optic mount. Local LE agencies are moving in that direction too.

Better sighting in variable lighting conditions with WMLs, threat focus while on the sights, and accuracy at distance are all worth learning to use RMRs for.
Boy, some of you guys are like born-again Christians when it comes to some gun stuff.

I'm not poo-pooing dots on handguns. I think they are probably a good idea, I don't see them as a "gimmick", but I've decided they're not for me.

As I age? LOL, I'm going to be 73 in a few months (if I get through my current heart issues) so as I said, I don't have the time/money/patience to switch to a new system.

I've been carrying for about 50 years now and have only once-once-drawn my handgun. I'm very satisfied with the sights on my carry guns, even though most people here hate them (Big Dot.)

I have RDS that I still like on most of my rifles , even though my astigmatism makes the dot less than perfect. My son gave me a PA Cyclops and I'll see if that makes a difference.

Unless you have some statistics to show that an overwhelming number of LE agencies are switching to optics in the immediate future, my statement still stands. Same for Big Army, Big AF, etc., not SOCOM.

And even if they do tomorrow, I won't be following suit for the reasons I've stated.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:33:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Strela:

Boy, some of you guys are like born-again Christians when it comes to some gun stuff.

I'm not poo-pooing dots on handguns. I think they are probably a good idea, I don't see them as a "gimmick", but I've decided they're not for me.

As I age? LOL, I'm going to be 73 in a few months (if I get through my current heart issues) so as I said, I don't have the time/money/patience to switch to a new system.

I've been carrying for about 50 years now and have only once-once-drawn my handgun. I'm very satisfied with the sights on my carry guns, even though most people here hate them (Big Dot.)

I have RDS that I still like on most of my rifles , even though my astigmatism makes the dot less than perfect. My son gave me a PA Cyclops and I'll see if that makes a difference.

Unless you have some statistics to show that an overwhelming number of LE agencies are switching to optics in the immediate future, my statement still stands. Same for Big Army, Big AF, etc., not SOCOM.

And even if they do tomorrow, I won't be following suit for the reasons I've stated.
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Welcome to the gun forum mentality.  Jump in on the latest and greatest fad/go with the flow or you're a dinosaur gambling with your life.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:55:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:

Except the thread title says why bother without red dots.

Well, they are not a requirement for being competent with a pistol.

Thanks though, glad you are faster.  Did you sell all of your non dot pistols?

If not, why not, surely they are worthless.
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Nobody made the argument that iron sighted handguns are “worthless”.  The point was made that they provide a significant performance advantage.

As for myself, carry/duty guns all have a MRDS now.  The only iron sighted handguns I still have are either heirlooms, or specifically for competitive venues which don’t allow them... That being said, I think I’m done with Limited and will be shooting CO or Open from here on out.  Looks like I’ll be making someone a deal on a TSO-40 and a stack of 140mm mags.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 2:57:09 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:

Except the thread title says why bother without red dots.

Well, they are not a requirement for being competent with a pistol.

Thanks though, glad you are faster.  Did you sell all of your non dot pistols?

If not, why not, surely they are worthless.
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Which is absolutely absurd, and the OP clearly went for a sensationalized thread title, for what reason....who knows.  It unfortunately has set the tone for a lot of the responses in this thread.

That being said, beyond the BS of the title, the core of the discussion has some very good conversation points.

Iron sight pistols are absolutely relevant, plenty useful, and will continue to be for many years.

Red dot sights do however have some advantages, but they come at the expense of time, effort, and $$.  Some people will recognize those advantages more than others.  Its for the end user to decide.  Unfortunately, its really not something you can determine by firing a magazine or two through a buddy's gun, so there is quite a bit that goes into it.

The advantages that I have seen have gone far beyond just red dot pistols- I'm now a better iron sight pistol shooter as well.  The red dot simply gives the user more feedback than iron sights can.  If you can't see it, its hard to correct.  The red dot lets you see everything.  Natural movement, where the dot goes under recoil (to correct grip), and if you dip during cadence.

I do encourage those who have the means and the time to give the MRDS a serious look.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:01:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2019 3:02:03 PM EST by bcauz3y]
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:02:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Strela:

Boy, some of you guys are like born-again Christians when it comes to some gun stuff.

I'm not poo-pooing dots on handguns. I think they are probably a good idea, I don't see them as a "gimmick", but I've decided they're not for me.

As I age? LOL, I'm going to be 73 in a few months (if I get through my current heart issues) so as I said, I don't have the time/money/patience to switch to a new system.

I've been carrying for about 50 years now and have only once-once-drawn my handgun. I'm very satisfied with the sights on my carry guns, even though most people here hate them (Big Dot.)

I have RDS that I still like on most of my rifles , even though my astigmatism makes the dot less than perfect. My son gave me a PA Cyclops and I'll see if that makes a difference.

Unless you have some statistics to show that an overwhelming number of LE agencies are switching to optics in the immediate future, my statement still stands. Same for Big Army, Big AF, etc., not SOCOM.

And even if they do tomorrow, I won't be following suit for the reasons I've stated.
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Your reasoning for not wanting to make the jump is completely logical.

A lot of agencies have learned that "heres a red dot gun, pass the qualification and go" isn't the right approach.  Around here, its fairly common for agencies to require some sort of formalized training to allow officers to use a MRDS on a handgun.

There is only one "state" MRDS course available here right now, and its backed up like crazy.  The demand is there, but until enough guys have gone to "train the trainer for MRDS" classes, its going to take some time.  But I can ASSURE you, the demand is there and its taking off, at least around here.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:05:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:07:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2019 3:08:14 PM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Irons are faster, cheaper and more reliable.

Simple really.
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1) Nope
2) Yes
3) Run BUIS, don’t buy junk, and remember to change your battery every year.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:08:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2019 3:10:16 PM EST by bcauz3y]
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:10:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2019 3:20:22 PM EST by Marksman14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Irons are faster, cheaper and more reliable.

Simple really.
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Absolutely disagree, absolutely agree, sometimes yes, sometimes no....but thats why MRDS guns typically have both setups.

Part in red is for me.  May not be true for others, but I've found I'm faster and most guys I know who are using them have come to the same conclusion- to be more specific, I also include accuracy thresholds when I say "faster".  Speed is useless without getting hits- I've found I can get better groups in less time with irons...especially beyond 7 yards.

If you're on a rigorous training schedule, I'm guessing a guy like you would really do well with a dot.
Link Posted: 10/24/2019 3:12:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:

I see probably as many pistols with them as I do without them these days in classes. Most .civ, though. Cops aren't making the move.
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Gun dork cops are

Theres a lot that goes into cops using them.  Department policy is also a huge limiter around here.  Cops are notoriously cheap, and frankly some simply aren't paid enough to be able to do it.  Those hurdles are a major limiter.
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