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Posted: 1/7/2005 8:21:28 PM EDT
Help me make up my mind, cause I value all of your opinions here at arfcom.(hard to believe isnt' it). I'm going to either get another TLE or a Springfield Loaded.  I have pros and cons of each understandably.  So what would you pick.  I don't own any springfields, but have two Kimbers.  I love my Kimbers, but thought maybe I'd try the Loaded models. I've narrowed it down to these two.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 4:18:27 AM EDT
both

try the loaded this time
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:24:17 AM EDT
you see the full-sized, parkerized SA 1911 loaded, w/ night sights, advertised for $640 or so on gunbroker.

That is what I would get...unless I could find a used one.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 7:54:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A2sights:
Help me make up my mind, cause I value all of your opinions here at arfcom.(hard to believe isnt' it). I'm going to either get another TLE or a Springfield Loaded.  I have pros and cons of each understandably.  So what would you pick.  I don't own any springfields, but have two Kimbers.  I love my Kimbers, but thought maybe I'd try the Loaded models. I've narrowed it down to these two.



I posted the same question about a month ago .

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL

10 days and counting , no word yet

I'm not bad mouthing Kimber ( Yet ) , My fault for accepting delivery
without noticing , but damn ... I hate the feeling of second guessing my decision .

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 11:41:03 AM EDT
I have the SA 9109L (parked/loaded) and would recommend it.  I priced Kimber and SA when I went to order a 1911 and the shop I go to had the SA for around $100 less so that's what I bought.

I think they're both equally great companies with great products, it just comes down to price and personal preference.  
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 2:27:01 PM EDT
Both need lots of work, IMHO. I have the Kimber, first thing is replace all the MIM parts and remove the Series II bulllshit.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 2:45:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL




Yikes.

Well, everyone can put out a whoops once in a while, but holy crap.

I am fond of my Springfields. Batting 1000 so far with them (2/2).
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:09:43 PM EDT
Springfield "Loaded" all the way. I own one and it has never failed me yet.  It is one of the most accurate guns I've ever owned.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:15:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By chrome1:

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL




Yikes.

Well, everyone can put out a whoops once in a while, but holy crap.

I am fond of my Springfields. Batting 1000 so far with them (2/2).



Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:18:11 PM EDT
I like them both.  The Springfield I had some time ago had a very smooth action and was well built.  The Kimbers I have now are also smooth and well built.

Since you have two Kimbers, do the SA Loaded.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:18:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By chrome1:

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL




Yikes.

Well, everyone can put out a whoops once in a while, but holy crap.

I am fond of my Springfields. Batting 1000 so far with them (2/2).



Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.




Could you point me to documented cases of a SA barrel having problems?

Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:49:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 3:55:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By chrome1:

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL




Yikes.

Well, everyone can put out a whoops once in a while, but holy crap.

I am fond of my Springfields. Batting 1000 so far with them (2/2).



Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.




Could you point me to documented cases of a SA barrel having problems?




SAs rarely are as accurate. I consider that a problem. Kimbers seem to shoot 1.5-2 inches with good ammo, SA 2-3. I want every advantage I can get.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 4:05:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.



I'd be happy to shoot against you with your pistol of choice using my OD loaded, crappy barrel and all. I managed 7/8 hits at ~25 yards on a  popper with it in under 5 seconds drawing from a holster, shooting against the 2 remaining classmates at a tactical pistol course shootout last year---with a few board members as witnesses.  Damned crappy Springfield. If not for that shit barrel, it would have been 8/8

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=13&t=271784
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 4:57:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:01:17 PM EDT
I just took my OD green loaded apart. The barrel certainly looks to be one piece. How do you tell? I believe my TRP has a Storm Mountain(?) barrel. Anyhow, of the 3 other loaded full sized pistols my friends have, they are all nice reliable shooters.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:18:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
I have had 10 Springfields, and 7 Kimbers. To say that Springfields barrels are inaccurate, is absolutely and completely false internet hogwash. All of mine were plenty accurate, and my Kimbers have all be extremely accurate, more than I could probably ever humanly take advantage of.

As for your choice, the SA Loadeds are great weapons. I still would have to put the Kimber TLE as the first choice though.



Not innacurate, less accurate. Still accurate.

Yeah, many weapons are more accurate than the shooter. I can't remember the last time I shot for a group with a pistol, instead of from a draw or some type of drill requiring speed. Still, I prefer the weapon to be far better than me--I have no excuses then, and perform better than I would with a less accurate weapon.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:29:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:30:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.



I'd be happy to shoot against you with your pistol of choice using my OD loaded, crappy barrel and all. I managed 7/8 hits at ~25 yards on a  popper with it in under 5 seconds drawing from a holster, shooting against the 2 remaining classmates at a tactical pistol course shootout last year---with a few board members as witnesses.  Damned crappy Springfield. If not for that shit barrel, it would have been 8/8

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=13&t=271784




As to the Springfields breaking: I have heard stories of SA barrels cracking, but just anecdotes and I have no reason to believe its something to be concerned about, as there are lots of SA pistols and few stories of cracked barrels. Probably a fitment issue anyway.

I just want a fucking stainless barrel, or something that won't rust and pit after 2 1/2 hours at 30k feet in an airliner hold.

FWIW, my best "Dozier Drill" (start facing five poppers at 5 yards or so, draw when you hear the timer and knock down all five) was 3.64 seconds. Stock Kimber with the stock night sights and deactivated Series II. My best El Presidente (we did it hands at sides though) was 54 points in 10 seconds. I used a borrowed gun for this--SA loaded model, black Novaks and thin grips.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 5:33:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Then you agree that Kimbers and Springfields dont have crap for barrels.



I was thinking about the rust on my barrel and got a little pissed off. I shouldn't have said that. They aren't crap. Its a good product for the money.

FWIW, I dropped my Kimber off for a bunch of custom work, and I saw no reason to replace the barrel despite the fact that with the budget and timetable I am looking at if I wanted to it wouldn't be that much more to have a new barrel installed.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:07:17 PM EDT
I dont know what you're talking about with a two peice barrel...

Hell, my mil-spec operator had a once peice barrel, and was accurate as you could ask for.

My TLE RL 2 is just as accurate, if not more.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:43:17 PM EDT
TLE. It is my first gun ever, and I could NOT be more happy with it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2005 9:43:52 PM EDT
BTW... PICS?!?!??????
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 5:42:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By SP10:

Originally Posted By chrome1:

I went with the Kimber and ended up with this : TLE/RL




Yikes.

Well, everyone can put out a whoops once in a while, but holy crap.

I am fond of my Springfields. Batting 1000 so far with them (2/2).



Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily.



No, Kimbers do not have cast barrels.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 5:56:38 AM EDT
A2sights - I recently bought a 25th Anniversary Kimber and while I absolutely love it, there is a Springfield Loaded at my local shop that has my name on it  So, in keeping with ARFCOM tradition, get bot!  You know you will any way
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 6:50:19 AM EDT
My SA has a two piece barrel.  It's a "Loaded" model I got new in '99.  I have about 4k rounds through it and never had a FTF, FTE etc. and has been accurate and reliable.

I'd go with the SA.  The ILS can be completely removed (unlike the series II safety system) easily.  I have been under the impression that the Series II bullshit can never be completely eliminated.  To me, that's a deal breaker.

Or, you can save up more and get a ADCO/RRA


Rich
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:05:26 AM EDT
I would go with the one that has the WRITTEN lifetime warranty, not the one that has a ONE YEAR warranty, and they'll fix it after that if they feel like it.

Buy Springfield.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 11:00:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 4:16:26 PM EDT
Kimber barrels aren't cast? I thought they were. Certainly parts of it look like they are. My mistake.

The Series II can be fully removed. The cam and spring in the slide comes out in less than 4 minutes. The stuff in the frame is more difficult, you have to fab a part, but it can be done. Someone here did that.

I had to file down the Series II pin. It was sticking out of my frame and making dissasembly and reassembly nearly impossible.

Fucking California is the only reason they put a damn drop safety in there anyway. I hate that state government.

If I had a chance to do it over, I would get a model with an internal extractor and have a Brown, Wilson or other quality unit put in. I have heard some stories lately about Kimber external extractors flying off. We'll see, I am only 1500 rounds into this gun. I really do like it though. I didn't get a chance to clean it last week. I fired 1k rounds in four days without cleaning. Only malfunction was related to a press check. It failed to return to battery.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 5:09:07 PM EDT
QUOTE:
"Both have crap for barrels. SA is two piece, Kimber at least is one piece, but it's cast and also rusts easily"

    "Both need lots of work, IMHO. I have the Kimber, first thing is replace all the MIM parts and remove the Series II bulllshit."

"SAs rarely are as accurate. I consider that a problem. Kimbers seem to shoot 1.5-2 inches with good ammo, SA 2-3. I want every advantage I can get."

WTF?
I'm sensing someone has never even owned a Springfield.....
yet chooses to bash another product based on emotion over coming to the
conclusion of having to rework a virtually entirely MIM constructed pistol(less frame, slide and barrel)
from a company with a WELL DOCUMENTED recent history of parts failure and quality control issues
Every advantage you can get? having a pistol that shoots 1.5 in. @ 25 yards is a moot point when you have
sears breaking causing hammers to fall out battery,beavertails cracking, Slide stops buckling, thumb safeties snapping off, etc,etc,etc,etc.Accuracy is always second to a weapon's
reliability.

Data? Here's just a tidbit of documented incidents of "Catostrophic Failures" in
Kimber MIM parts:

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=100683&highlight=Kimber+MIM+parts+failure

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=72119&highlight=Kimber+MIM+parts+failure

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=10827&highlight=Kimber+MIM+parts+failure

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=83039&highlight=Kimber+MIM+parts+failure

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=57336&highlight=Kimber+MIM+parts+failure



I've owned both.
2 Springers(older px9109Loaded model with the chunky frame and more
recently a 2002 PX9109Loaded).

I've also owned 2 Kimber Custom IIs
that are both gone now.

One Kimber was a jammomatic. Constant FTFs, FTF, FTRBs.
The sear spring failed and the beaver tail frigging CRACKED off in less than a week!! The other one
had a few hiccups but I was scurred traded it(for a SA!) in before something went wrong. I won't even mention the "Black Oxide" finish turning to "stainless" on both so fast it would make your head spin. After replacing the
beaver tail and Sear spring on the first, one I got rid of it too ASAP. Uh, yeah..They were both accurate.

My first Parked loaded was a super reliable and accurate. (I sold it like an idiot).
My second one, a 2002 loaded Parked, I bought used and had 3 FTRB due to a weak recoil spring.
Swapped it with a Wolff variable power 18.5 lb. and it's been flawless for 600 rds. later.
did I mention it'll do fist sized groups @ 25?

Get  the SA!


Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:40:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:04:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 11:09:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
WOW.


The MIM ignorance continues.



Wheres that picture of the stainless Springfield slide that broke in 1/2 at the front slide serations???



Pictures....there were a lot more than one.  
Link Posted: 1/10/2005 3:14:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2005 3:15:42 PM EDT by IronBalaclava]
Gentlemen,
It's not the MIM process and construction which i have a problem with. As we all know, MANY manufacturers
use MIM parts in their weapons, including Springfield. It's the fact that(a lot more than 20 cases including me), have had problems with specifically KIMBER MANUFACTURED MIM parts and QC. This could partly be due to the high volume
of pistols Kimber pumps out, however to me, this is hardly an excuse. Maybe DET1 and LAPD SWAT have'nt had problems.... but I have, as well as a growing number of Ex-Kimber owners.

Scanning feedback from owners on 1911 forum(SA vs. Kimber), I see alot less complaints from SA owners vs. Kimber owners and
I am yet to FIND any documented cases of "Catostrophic Failures" of SA MIM parts(Sears failing, beavetails "cracklating", Thumb safetys snapping off) less the few cases of Stainless SA Slides cracking(bad batch), which was a bad
run of forgings anyways.

All manufacturers put out lemons I agree, just not to the extent that I have seen Kimber put out.
If I pay over $600 for a HG I expect to be able to put my life on that weapon. I expect NO parts failures while during the probationary period, whether easily replaced or not.
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