Posted: 5/4/2009 6:40:08 AM EDT
| So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. |
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So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. The dealer can legally ship the gun back to you. Here is the relevent part of the regulation: TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents Subpart I_Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic. |
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So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. The dealer can legally ship the gun back to you. Here is the relevent part of the regulation: TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents Subpart I_Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic. Thanks so much for your help. |
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I just received this response. What should I do?
"I spoke with the local BATF office and they confirmed that we HAVE TO ship to an FFL in the sender's area. The provision for return direct to the sender is for gunsmithing or repair under warranty. This is neither. Sorry. Kelly The Gun Vault 702-837-8383" The text of the law seems pretty clear and does not reference "repair." |
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So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. I'd tell the buyer he's SOL and he can try and re-sell it after he picks it up. Did you already receive money from the buyer before shipping out the gun? If not, they you are SOL. |
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He contacted his BATF, you should contact your BATF. http://www.atf.gov/contact/field.htm |
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What's the incentive for this FFL to screw with me like this? The incentive is not to get dinged by the ATF on your compliance inspection. If The Gun Vault is not in the business of gunsmithing/repairs, and they show a gun coming from and going back to a non-FFL out of state, that will raise a red flag with their inspector. If you have the money in hand, tell the purchaser that he bought a gun. He can advertise it for sale and have his FFL ship it to the FFL of whoever buys it next. |
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It would be no different than a consignment, if someone brings a gun into an FFL and it doesn't reach the price the original owner wanted and now he comes a knockin' at the FFL to get his gun back - guess what? A 4473 gets done. Gunsmithing is an exception.
From ATF's website: (F15) Must a dealer record firearms received on consignment? [Back]
Yes. Firearms received for sale on consignment must be entered in the dealer's "bound book." Sales of the firearms are handled in the same manner as other firearm sales. Return of the remaining firearms by the licensee to the consignor is entered in the dealer's disposition record. An ATF Form 4473 and a NICS check must be completed. I wouldn't get pissed at the dealer, I'd be pissed at the guy that backed out of the sale - he cost you some coin. |
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So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. The dealer can legally ship the gun back to you. Here is the relevent part of the regulation: TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents Subpart I_Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic. Thanks so much for your help. Wrong - that is talking about a replacement. Read it again. Also read 478.124(a) which the regulation you listed says to reference: Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received. He neither sent it for repair or customizing so in other words a 4473 would need to be done. Since it's in another State, it has to go to an FFL. It may not seem fair, but that's the way it's gotta work. |
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So I have a buyer back out of a sale after the gun already shipped to his FFL. The gun was not transferred to him. I'm asking the FFL to return the gun directly to me, they say they need to send it through a dealer. I'm pretty sure that's not true, as I've had gunsmiths ship directly back to me. What's the law say? Any help would be great. Gun is coming back from NV to PA. The dealer can legally ship the gun back to you. Here is the relevent part of the regulation: TITLE 27––ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS CHAPTER II––BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION––Table of Contents Subpart I_Exemptions, Seizures, and Forfeitures Sec. 478.147 Return of firearm. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See Sec. 478.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic. Thanks so much for your help. Wrong - that is talking about a replacement. Read it again. Also read 478.124(a) which the regulation you listed says to reference: Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer shall not sell or otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently, of any firearm to any person, other than another licensee, unless the licensee records the transaction on a firearms transaction record, Form 4473: Provided, That a firearms transaction record, Form 4473, shall not be required to record the disposition made of a firearm delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing when such firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom received. He neither sent it for repair or customizing so in other words a 4473 would need to be done. Since it's in another State, it has to go to an FFL. It may not seem fair, but that's the way it's gotta work. It appears that you are correct. I'm doubly embarrassed  by my answer since I've been working with Federal regulations for most of my adult life. I know better than to give an answer before checking all references in a citation.
Good catch. I relearned a basic lesson. |
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I just received this response. What should I do? "I spoke with the local BATF office and they confirmed that we HAVE TO ship to an FFL in the sender's area. The provision for return direct to the sender is for gunsmithing or repair under warranty. This is neither. Sorry. Kelly The Gun Vault 702-837-8383" The text of the law seems pretty clear and does not reference "repair." If stupidity was a crime, those clowns would have been sentenced to death!! They are as dumb as they come in that place. Make stuff up, lose parts, lose guns, etc. What kind of gun is it? PM is fine. Ask who the ATF agent was and get the name. It is easy to check on and inquire about the story the crooked shop is giving you. |
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I just received this response. What should I do? "I spoke with the local BATF office and they confirmed that we HAVE TO ship to an FFL in the sender's area. The provision for return direct to the sender is for gunsmithing or repair under warranty. This is neither. Sorry. Kelly The Gun Vault 702-837-8383" The text of the law seems pretty clear and does not reference "repair." If stupidity was a crime, those clowns would have been sentenced to death!! They are as dumb as they come in that place. Make stuff up, lose parts, lose guns, etc. What kind of gun is it? PM is fine. Ask who the ATF agent was and get the name. It is easy to check on and inquire about the story the crooked shop is giving you. Why is the shop crooked? By law he can not send it back to this guy. It needs to go to an FFL. Read my post above, it clearly states in the regulations what the shop can and can't do. |
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Why is the shop crooked? By law he can not send it back to this guy. It needs to go to an FFL. Read my post above, it clearly states in the regulations what the shop can and can't do. Don't know why he is crooked...... you may have to ask him. Holding of guns, selling guns they shouldn't, and possessing NFA items that weren't properly transferred are just some of the previous problems. I was remarking more to their previous questionable business practices. |
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I got the money first. Don't want to be a hardass because of the gunbroker feedback. How about you return the money LESS your expenses when you get the firearm back. That would seem fair. Exactly. The buyer backed out. I'd say, no problem. Ship it back to my FFL. Get it transferred back to yourself. Deduct all your expenses in taking it back from the buyer's money, send him the balance. If he leaves you neg. feedback, leave your rebuttal. You have no duty to take a loss to get it returned back to you. And if you decide to anyway, you have no balls. |