Posted: 7/16/2025 9:21:36 PM EDT
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@bionicmonkey https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/So-I-was-checking-out-one-of-the-Rossi-Circuit-Judges-the-other-day-I-am-amazed-by-the-trigger-/5-2804780/?r=-1&page=1&anc=114177192#i114177192 Quoted: on the topic of heavy triggers... I was a juror on a case in which the murder weapon was an SW airlite 357, ultimately the determination of whether the defendent was guilty of the most serious charge hinged on whether we beleived the gun could have just "gone off by accident". every juror pulled that trigger and ultimately came to the conclusion that no accident was pulling that thing.. If you're on a murder jury, and the weapon is a P320, and the defendant testifies he never pulled the trigger - what say you? |
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If the person is on trial for murder, there must be a lot of other evidence to consider also. That on top of pulling the trigger, he's going to the big house. Also, he pointed it at someone. Never point a firearm at something you are not willing to destroy. I have 3 P320's. Mine don't go off uess force is applied to the trigger. |
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Quoted: If the person is on trial for murder, there must be a lot of other evidence to consider also. That on top of pulling the trigger, he's going to the big house. Also, he pointed it at someone. Never point a firearm at something you are not willing to destroy. I have 3 P320's. Mine don't go off uess force is applied to the trigger. Until they do…. |
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Quoted: @bionicmonkey https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/So-I-was-checking-out-one-of-the-Rossi-Circuit-Judges-the-other-day-I-am-amazed-by-the-trigger-/5-2804780/?r=-1&page=1&anc=114177192#i114177192 Quoted: on the topic of heavy triggers... I was a juror on a case in which the murder weapon was an SW airlite 357, ultimately the determination of whether the defendent was guilty of the most serious charge hinged on whether we beleived the gun could have just "gone off by accident". every juror pulled that trigger and ultimately came to the conclusion that no accident was pulling that thing.. If you're on a murder jury, and the weapon is a P320, and the defendant testifies he never pulled the trigger - what say you? Absent any other information it’s hard to say. Murder requires “malice aforethought”. If he is pointing a gun at someone but yelling freeze and the other guy stops and the evidence shows that the situation is de-escalating then it may save him from a murder rap. Would still probably get manslaughter though. |
| I worked for a guy who did expert witness stuff in gun cases. We duplicated an accidental discharge of a loaded pistol loose in a range bag for the defense in a case. His lawyer died and the new lawyer did not know about the work we did..The defendant also cheated on his wife and told a woman that he kill her before he divorced her. He went to jail. |
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Depends entirely on other evidence in the case. Holding someone at gunpoint to rob them and the gun goes off? First degree murder, execution by public flaying. Although, as the P320 might have gone off on it's own, I would refrain from adding the lemon juice soak. If the P320 was holstered, went off, hit someone in the leg, and they bled out and died then it's negligent homicide for owning a Sig P320... |
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As posted by many - that was a determining factor but there was plenty of other evidence.. DNA, video etc.. the video cut out before the act, but all of that was enough for the defendant to take to the stand and spin a yarn about trying to hit the victim with the gun, but oops it just went off.. he wasn't super believable, but for him it was likely the difference between life with parole vs life without parole, so why not try. Since he had admitted to all of that the last remaining question was whether he INTENDED for the gun to go off or not. .. so, to the OP's question, if it was a SIG i'd be having to go with the lesser charge 
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| to clarity - we had 4 charges to consider, in GA it was Malice murder, felony murder, Agravated assault and something else, i dont recall.. each being considered individually, so we found him guilty on all 4, but could have found him guilty on only the lower 3. he had admitted to felony murder in his testimony, so we didnt really have to consider the 3 lower charges as he had admitted to them. Malice murder required it to be deliberate, not necessarily pre-meditated, just deliberate. |
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Quoted: As posted by many - that was a determining factor but there was plenty of other evidence.. DNA, video etc.. the video cut out before the act, but all of that was enough for the defendant to take to the stand and spin a yarn about trying to hit the victim with the gun, but oops it just went off.. he wasn't super believable, but for him it was likely the difference between life with parole vs life without parole, so why not try. Since he had admitted to all of that the last remaining question was whether he INTENDED for the gun to go off or not. .. so, to the OP's question, if it was a SIG i'd be having to go with the lesser charge I was thinking of a scenario where the wife was running around, husband claims he didn't know, loved his wife, he's heartbroken this happened, he was just taking his CC piece out when she walked by, etc. It could play as murder or as a big lawsuit against SIG. Just an amusing hypothetical brought on by your Smith trigger pull - which I fear when I order a 351 I've already ordered grips for. |
| Long story short, if their case revolves around intentionally pulling the trigger vs accidental discharge, and the defendant was justified to point the gun in the first place, then it is a reasonable doubt. It certainly could bump the act down from intentional homicide to reckless or negligent homicide. |
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Quoted: If the person is on trial for murder, there must be a lot of other evidence to consider also. That on top of pulling the trigger, he's going to the big house. Also, he pointed it at someone. Never point a firearm at something you are not willing to destroy. I have 3 P320's. Mine don't go off uess force is applied to the trigger. I'm not going to take my weapon off of that guy until the cops arrive. I'll let him run, but I'm not going to let him get the jump on me. What happens if I have a guy in that position, holding a p320, finger not on trigger and it self-bangs? I would rather defend my actions of choosing to shoot someone, rather than "oh shit, my p320 really didn't like that guy." Not to mention that the liability of having a p320 in civil court is going to suck. Even if you beat the criminal case, you're going to get totally F'd in civil court since it is now public information that the p320 has a habit of deciding to bang itself. |
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Quoted: I worked for a guy who did expert witness stuff in gun cases. We duplicated an accidental discharge of a loaded pistol loose in a range bag for the defense in a case. His lawyer died and the new lawyer did not know about the work we did..The defendant also cheated on his wife and told a woman that he kill her before he divorced her. He went to jail. On that note, I have a friend that does the same thing but on the .gov side. Has done it for close to 30 years and is meticulous almost autistic in nature about his science and work on cases. He had an OIS where a 320 went off in the duty holster. The officer was hands on with a suspect and all four hands are visible in the dashcam and BWC video. The gun went off and shot the suspect in the hand. He worked for weeks and could not get it to recreate. He said he wholly believes the design is faulty and it happened the way the video shows and a lot of other cases nationwide show, but he could not get that gun to do it. YMMV |
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Quoted: On that note, I have a friend that does the same thing but on the .gov side. Has done it for close to 30 years and is meticulous almost autistic in nature about his science and work on cases. He had an OIS where a 320 went off in the duty holster. The officer was hands on with a suspect and all four hands are visible in the dashcam and BWC video. The gun went off and shot the suspect in the hand. He worked for weeks and could not get it to recreate. He said he wholly believes the design is faulty and it happened the way the video shows and a lot of other cases nationwide show, but he could not get that gun to do it. YMMV Quoted: Quoted: I worked for a guy who did expert witness stuff in gun cases. We duplicated an accidental discharge of a loaded pistol loose in a range bag for the defense in a case. His lawyer died and the new lawyer did not know about the work we did..The defendant also cheated on his wife and told a woman that he kill her before he divorced her. He went to jail. On that note, I have a friend that does the same thing but on the .gov side. Has done it for close to 30 years and is meticulous almost autistic in nature about his science and work on cases. He had an OIS where a 320 went off in the duty holster. The officer was hands on with a suspect and all four hands are visible in the dashcam and BWC video. The gun went off and shot the suspect in the hand. He worked for weeks and could not get it to recreate. He said he wholly believes the design is faulty and it happened the way the video shows and a lot of other cases nationwide show, but he could not get that gun to do it. YMMV All of the repetition demands are nonsense. It's an intermittent fault - otherwise it would go off & shoot you in the chest the first time you take your holster off & toss it on the desk, not the 87th time. |
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Quoted: "Danger" is my middle name ...  Bigger_Hammer  Quoted: Quoted: If you still carry one, you have a disregard for yourself and others. Seems negligent. "Danger" is my middle name ... Bigger_Hammer Did you miss this thread, bud? https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2805777_Sig-M18-might-have-just-killed-an-Airman.html |
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Quoted: @bionicmonkey https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/So-I-was-checking-out-one-of-the-Rossi-Circuit-Judges-the-other-day-I-am-amazed-by-the-trigger-/5-2804780/?r=-1&page=1&anc=114177192#i114177192 Quoted: on the topic of heavy triggers... I was a juror on a case in which the murder weapon was an SW airlite 357, ultimately the determination of whether the defendent was guilty of the most serious charge hinged on whether we beleived the gun could have just "gone off by accident". every juror pulled that trigger and ultimately came to the conclusion that no accident was pulling that thing.. If you're on a murder jury, and the weapon is a P320, and the defendant testifies he never pulled the trigger - what say you? Unless the deceased were killed by a ricochet...the muzzle had to have been deliberately pointed at him... If you point a gun at someone even if your mind is debating whether or not to pull the trigger and in your ambivalence the gun goes off... |
 Sig vs the Air Force |
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The standard is "reasonable doubt." That is a doubt for which a reason can be given. In some jurisdictions, juries are even told that if there are two explanations for the act based on reason, the one which leads to Not Guilty is the one to be chosen. I think there are scenarios of homicides where the fact that a P320 was used could indeed create that doubt in my mind. |