It would appear that the new "hero" Chief Moose supressed witness descriptions of the MD/VA killers. [b]Did Moose get more people killed?[/b] It would also appear other agencies eagerly went along with it...


[b]D.C. SNIPER TERROR
Cops 'wasted time'
hunting white guy
FBI behaviorists 'have never profiled potential terrorists'

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Posted: October 25, 2002
1:00 a.m. Eastern



By Paul Sperry



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© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

ROCKVILLE, Md. – "We don't want anyone to give up on the fact that it could be a white guy."

That's what Montgomery County Police Officer Derek Baliles, part of the Beltway sniper task force here, told WorldNetDaily last week.

Never mind that authorities knew that several witnesses at the Virginia Home Depot shooting described "dark-skinned" suspects, corroborating an earlier witness account of two "Hispanic" men leaving the scene of one of the Montgomery County shootings.

"Anybody could put makeup on" to look ethnic, Baliles argued in an attempt to discredit the consistent description of "dark-skinned" suspects.

In fact, it turns out the sniper suspects, who eventually gave themselves away in unsolicited communications with police, are believed to be blacks – one a Muslim convert and the other an illegal alien from Jamaica. Both are expected to be charged today in the terrifying shootings, which killed 10 and seriously injured three.

Baliles was only taking a cue from his boss, Montgomery Police Chief Charles Moose, an outspoken critic of racial profiling.


Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose

Throughout the sniper ordeal, Moose refused to release a composite sketch or even a demographic profile of the sniper suspect, which would have helped the public narrow down who to look for. He explained he didn't want to [red]"paint some group."[/red]

[blue]But from the start of the investigation, Moose targeted whites, pouncing on phone tips from girlfriends, wives and neighbors upset with white guys with guns.[/blue]

[blue]The tips all proved to be dead ends.[/blue] White men detained for questioning or put under surveillance had to be taken off the suspect list as alibis checked out and the shootings continued.

Police "did waste some time" chasing down white gun owners, acknowledged a federal law-enforcement official close to the task force, [red]which may have bought time for the sniper team to cut down more people.[/red]

[blue]The ATF and FBI went along with the profiling of white gun owners, sources tell WorldNetDaily.

In fact, Mike Bouchard, special agent in charge of ATF's Baltimore field office, boasted of confiscating a number of rifles from residents in Maryland.[/blue]

Moose early in the investigation seemed more concerned with collecting guns than catching the sniper.

In an odd plea to the public at one press conference, he said, [red]"You need to ask yourself: Who do you know that owns guns, and why?"[/red]

A homeland-security official in the Bush administration says the obsession with white gun owners developed under the previous administration, which pushed for tighter gun controls and refocused FBI efforts on so-called "right-wing" militia groups.

"This is the result of Clinton and his liberal ilk going after law-abiding white gun owners for eight years," the official said, under the condition he not be named. [red]"God forbid the FBI look into black Muslims."[/red]

Regular White Guys

In profiling mass murderers, FBI behaviorists follow a formula that hasn't changed much over the past decade – even after Sept. 11.

[blue]It's called "RWG," or regular white guys.[/blue]

I.C. Smith, an FBI counterintelligence veteran, explains how it was applied in the sniper case.

"First you start with the statistic that 80 to 90 percent of all (serial) shooters are white guys. Then you back out the guys happily married. That leaves the introspective loner types," he said in a WorldNetDaily interview. "So you end up with a pretty small part of the population."

[red]Of course, that residual excludes Muslims – who tend to be black or foreign, not white.[/red]

The task force's operating assumption that the sniper was a lone, unstable white male came from the FBI's stock profile developed from the Timothy McVeigh and Ted Kacyznski cases, sources close to the investigation say.

[red]The face of American terror has a darker complexion now, yet profilers haven't updated the model.

"Point is, they have never profiled potential (Islamic) terrorists," Smith said.[/red]

He notes that FBI profilers spend most of their careers at Quantico, Va., the Marine Corps base where FBI profilers do some teaching and handle profiling requests from mainly local and state police agencies.

"Most of them have probably never been to a crime scene," Smith said. "Most find time to get advanced degrees and get material to write books when they retire."

He also notes that all of the profilers (including some prominent ex-FBI behaviorists) and criminologists on TV during the shooting crisis missed the mark in their analysis of the sniper. [/b]

(continued)

[b]The consensus was that he's a "white" "loner" who kills just for the "thrill," rather than out of some deep-seated religious belief or cause.

[blue]They were wrong on all counts – number of suspects, physical description and motive.

"These profilers misled the public," Smith said. "They did more harm than good."[/blue]

[red]Slurs against whites

Moose's personal attitudes about whites might also have played a factor in the task force's early decision to go after white gun owners, suggest officials familiar with the sniper case.

As police chief in Portland, Ore., he made racial slurs against whites who he thought were discriminating against him, according to local press reports.

In 1999, he got Portland officers and state police to sign a resolution against profiling of blacks in the state, regardless of their statistical propensity to commit certain crimes compared with whites.[/red]

He then ended the practice in Montgomery County soon after taking the $125,000 police chief job, making the Maryland county the first local government in the Mid-Atlantic region to launch a program approved by the Clinton Justice Department to discourage profiling.

Moose, a member of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives and the Civil Rights Committee, also is a big fan of community policing, another Clinton hobbyhorse.

[blue]As the de facto leader of the task force, Moose tried to smear as not credible all witness descriptions of "dark-skinned" suspects in the Home Depot shootings with the announcement that just one of the several witnesses at the scene lied.[/blue]

The media threw the baby out with the bath water, never pressing police to present the good witnesses and what they had to say, along with the one bad witness, Matthew Dowdy.

Baliles said "everything" the credible witnesses told police was "thrown out," because "even skin tone would be hard to describe under those lights" in the Home Depot parking garage. And the Fairfax County Police Department agreed to "re-interview" those witnesses.

Fairfax County Police spokeswoman Isabel Benemelis said new statements were taken from "several" witnesses.

[red]No white guys spotted[/red]

But their accounts of what they saw were never publicly released.

[blue]Asked if any of them ever described the suspects as "white," Benemelis paused. Then she said: "I can't get into specifics about witness statements."[/blue]

Baliles also dodged the question.

Astonishingly, the task force took three weeks to reach out to the immigrant community for tips in the sniper case.

On Oct. 3, a witness described two "Hispanic" men leaving the scene of one of the Maryland shootings in a white box truck. Investigators now believe the sniper team may never have actually used such a truck.

But at the time, the police thought enough of the witness account to put it in a BOLO, or be-on-the-lookout, alert that went out to federal law-enforcement agencies, as WorldNetDaily first reported Oct. 4.

Of course, that description didn't fit the stock profile of a mass murderer – the white male loner.

[red]So instead of canvassing immigrant neighborhoods for leads, the police, led by Moose, ran down tips about white gun owners.

They operated under the assumption the shooter had to be white, even though U.S. intelligence recently released a warning to law enforcement that al-Qaida planned to carry out small-scale terrorist acts in America using lower-profile black Muslims rather than Arab Muslims.[/red]

At the same time, the task force knew that black Muslims in Oregon – Moose's old home – had just been arrested for conspiring to wage war against the U.S. and support al-Qaida. Authorities became suspicious after spotting members of the terrorist cell firing rifles at targets.

[blue]It's not clear how Moose assumed so much authority at the command post here.

Despite the fact that more of the shootings occurred outside Moose's jurisdiction, he was "designated" by other agencies as the official spokesman for the task force, confirms task force spokesman Larry Scott, an ATF agent.[/blue]

However, Scott says Moose shared decision-making authority regarding task force strategy with Bouchard and Gary Bald, special agent in charge of the FBI's Baltimore field office. The three made up the task force "management team," he said.

Responding last week to criticism of his performance, Moose said, "There's nothing here that's about me." [/b]

[url]http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29421[/url]

This is highly disturbing. Say it isn't so, Moose!

All I want to know is where's my 40 acres and that damn mule?  The gummint has to compensate us for doing such a terrible thing. [%|]

I just read the article in World Net Daily. The story appears to be very straight forward. This kind of residual klintonesque crap has got to cease. People's lives may have been spared if this little napoleon had not refused to release suspect descriptions. The fact that he purposely shielded blacks from the suspect list and used the incidents to go after "white guys with guns" should outrage the public. It won't of course because Moose has the support of the press as a minority police chief. If any of this shows up on the evening news it will be a miracle.

Fact of the matter is, they had eyewitness testamony from several sources that the perp was "dark skinned", or "hispanic looking".
AND, today is Friday.......

IMO,if they were BOLO for suspected [b]Muslim[/b] ties...this would have ended much sooner.

They have not made the connection, domestically, to the possibilities of [b]MUSLIMS[/b] performing terror yet.

IF, they would have had profiler knowledge of  angry MUSLIM BLACK men, again...this would have helped in the initial investigation...they were going on 30 year old profiling data that led them to their conclusions. It was wrong. If it had not been for the phone call and witnesses coming forward..they'd still be looking for a LONE WHITE ANGRY man.

Their pride and lack of profiling progressiveness, has in the end, cost lives. It would seem that after 9/11 and all the cell terror groups arrest, they would have used this info FIRST!

Now, if a bomb goes off in a crowded mall..they would suspect terror..because of their profiling on bomb suspects. But, a terrorist sniper attack has no history, until now. Sad.

Chief Moose is a product of the system that runs America. Again, sad. You have total literary baffoon, coming on national t.v. and sounding absolutely ignorant. As he describes the case and what to look out for. This is what is unnerving to me. He was the voice of the investigation...and in the end had NO wisdom or contribution to ending the case. None. Pee Wee Herman could have done the briefings and had the same result.

This has NOTHING to do with race and everything to do with societal changes. We are NOT prepared for the future danger to this country and the last 3 weeks are proof.

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

All this in spite of the fact that AMERICAN black muslims were recently, (around the time of the first shootings), arrested in Portland Oregon, as an "Al Quaeda" cell..... DUH!

Like I said Paul...it was outdated and wrong.

I don't care if the stats say 98%... it was an assumption of old data...it was wrong.

I think the Feds realized this early on..they went to Gitmo to seek possiblities, so they were'nt totally in the dark.

This is'nt a cop bashing..this is a reality check at the CURRENT climate of terror in America.

I tell you what. Suppose there is another sniping that starts in Chicago tommorow. Do you think they will use the logic you just subscribed? Or will they START out thinking ANGRY MUSLIM?

BTW...there are at least 20 people on this forum "including myself" that called this right from day one. I guess we assummed too much.

I love being Quarterback,
[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

There were witness's from other shootings mentioning "dark skinned", or "hispanic" perps.



Now that you bring it up, it was the "task force" that pushed the white vans, in spite of witness's also mentioning a "dark colored" sedan...[:D] Info that was never released.



Moose was put out there as task force commander..





Nothing "Monday morning" about it. The "politically correct" methods used in this investigation diverted resources, (and the public), from looking at other possibilities as to who the perps could be, and what to look for. Fact; we have a "war on terror" going on with muslim "extremists". In spite of evidence of "dark-skinned" perps, the task force chose to focus on white gun-owners....

SHOULD WE EVEN BE SUPRISED, the cops and media in this country consider white male gun owners to be public enemy number one. i thought you all knew.

When you're looking for young muslim terrorists, it doesn't make much sense to search grandma now does it?



You're getting carried away here. Every murder? No, but if you're investigating an urban murder in a drug infested area, does it take a rocket scientist to figger who the perp prolly is?
If you have a "War On Terror" going on with middle eastern perps, and recent arrests of a "cell" of American black muslim "terrorists", does it take a genius to think if you're getting witness's mentioning "dark skinned", and "hispanic" looking, that maybe you oughta look at that?



"One LITTLE incident"?? I wonder how many investigators have closed a case based on "gut instinct", or a "feeling", when "science", (planted by the perp), led them somewhere else....



I'll bet you're instinct is right....

Here's what gets my goat.  The "profilers" got boxed in by their own preconceptions.  Here's a snippet from the Washington Times:
"The three-week shooting spree was in many ways unique, say scholars, and the arrest early yesterday of two black suspects in the shooting spree shows the hazards of statistical profiling, they say."

"The database doesn't have anything like him in there," said Michael Aamodt, who teaches a course in forensic psychology at Radford University in Virginia. [b]"There have been other snipers, but there's been none that I know of who has shot this many people over a short period of time and shot a wide variety of people."[/b]


So, we have a hostorically unique scenario but the profilers were using the pat play book!  

The snipers were outside of the box (and it was obvious) but the pros stayed well within it.  Not necessarily incompetence but certainly hampered by lack of imagination and creativity at the important levels.  

Couple all of this with recent terrorist activities and it's obvious the profilers simply failed to include rather likely and even possible scenarios.  

You know these two "pigeons" were set up by some AWG's! (Angry White Guys) [pissed]

Like I stated earlier...
By the description that I heard on TV etc., I would have been looking for 2 White or Hispanic males driving a white Chevy Astro Van, Ford Econoline Van (Both equipped with a ladder rack!) or a White Box/Cargo Van of some type!

I bet they checked these two at every road block and let them go...Because they did not want to be accused of "Racial Profiling"![pissed][pissed]

BigDozer66

Good post Magnum,

You've just underscored the bottom line.

[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

When everyone in the media began elevating moose, a dismal and pathetic failure in the investigation IMHO, to sainthood, my question was also if moose and his posse cost more lives by not releasing information on the car and possible killers as soon as they had it, rather than setting the focus on 'middle-age white men' and white vans with ladder racks.

how hard would it be to file a lawsuit against them for intentionally disregarding the witness reports and racially profiling whites???

there is no such thing as profiling whites because whitey is the devil and guilty if killing kittens and making the baby jesus cry!

I think the thing that pisses most of us off is that Chief Moose was such a big opponent of racial profiling when it is used to profile minorities (especially blacks).  He has a well documented history of playing the race card too.  However in this investigation, he seemed all too eager to racially profile the killer(s) as white men.  You can't have it both ways!  I think profiling can be helpful, so I don't have a problem with it per say, but you can't apply is selectively because it is or is not PC to profile one group or another.

Exactly. This profiling is bullshit. 100's of experts going around spouting off things that happen to be 100% wrong and you still support them? [whacko] It did not fit the "profile" to use planes to attack the WTC either, should we have ignored a direct threat? The fact is that moose was profiling, just in the PC way of only profiling white guys. If there were witness reports of a dark sedan and dark men and they were allowed to get through one of the road blocks then the police who let them through are guilty of murder.

Well, given the fact that most mass-murderers and shooting spree attacks are done by white guys, I think there's nothing wrong with racially profiling them in this case.

However, Moose saying "He didn't want to paint some group" is pretty retarded. Please give us some credit.  You can realize the perp might be a minority, doesn't mean all those minorities should be under suspicion.

Also, never bringing up the Muslim extremist possibility, and terrorism as a very viable motive is pretty perplexing.  We're at war, and cowardly attacks like this are right up the terrorists' alley.

Does anyone have any info on this? Any Links?

Interesting thread, especially since so many AR15.com members have eagerly embraced the idea of profiling since 9/11.

Are you guys saying profiling, per se, is good or bad?  Or are you only saying that profiling white males is bad, but profiling others is OK?

FWIW, in hindsight, I don’t know of a single instance where witnesses appear to have actually seen the actual shooters.  IIRC, the witnesses who reported Hispanic looking suspects also reported those suspects in white vans and box trucks!!  

Any descriptions based on these witness statements would have been either wrong, or only accidentally correct, anyway.

I have argued in the past that profiling Middle Eastern people at airports would make it easier for terrorists not fitting the profile to board aircraft.  I think this incident shows the validity of that argument.

Profiling, which is pretty close to what used to be called “stereotyping”, can easily turn into putting on a set of blinders.


I suspect it was the exact opposite; the police let the two go because they were “racial profiling” and the two didn’t meet the profile!

Either profile all or profile none. Whities might be snipers but they don't suicide planes into buildings. What about murders and rapes? Read up on those stats. But ya can't profile the brothers, nope, no way. Either use your resources wisely and with utmost effiency (profile) or treat us all the same. I just want the same rights as everyone else.
How about EEO and affirmative action, would they figure in here?
One last thing, when researching crime statistics be sure to take into population of groups in relation to the population in general.
I.E. If there are 20 martians in the US and 19 are crackheads that means 95% of martians are crackheads. Not only 19 martians out of 20 million (or whatever the pop. of the US is) are crackheads.

Liberty is correct, Paul. The home depot idiot wasn't the first one to give that description, he only repeated what he had heard about the features of the perp and his vehicle.

The issue here is whether the Moose DISREGARDED the original witness testimony (whether LATER proved true or not) because it didn't coincide with his own stereotypes or biases. If there was truely nothing to go on then the profile may have had some merit.

Wrong.  You only hear about White murderers.  There are plenty of other flavors of mass murderers/serial killers/nut jobs.  Try doing a little research.  Or if that's too much trouble, I can post a rather extensive list.

Sure thing.  But please just count mass murders in North America over the last 40-50 years, ok?  From what I've seen most serial killers are white guys, like Dahlmer, Son of Sam, Boston Strangler, Ted Bundy, Charles Starkweather, Charles Whitman, Patrick Purdy, John Wayne Gacy, Columbine and other school shooters. I can think of two Mexicans; the railway killer and the Nightstalker.  The Atlanta child murder was black, I think.

You would have won that bet Dozer...turns out they were stopped and checked at roadblocks at least 3 times!

just to clear one thing Son of Sam is a jew, last name horowitz i believe, also one of the columbine shooters was jewish also, Klebold was the one.

what exactly are you clearing up?

Not "dumb luck", a vehicle fitting that description, and "dark-skinned perps" was given to the task force... Nobody saw a "white skinned" man shooting from a "white van" either.

Raven posted that in the last 40-50 years all the serial killers have been white, i was just correcting that inaccurate statement.

Paul long before this guy was caught there were people on this forum saying that maybe there was a muslim terrorist connection and maybe the lone angry white guy profile was off base. get over the monday morning armchair football thing people on this forum were calling this thing right from the get go.

and it was also all speculation

the only thing that would bother me is if there were reports by people at the scenes of the shootings reporting blue chevy caprice cars in the area and that they didn't pay the same level of attention to those as they did to the white truck

as for the x-ray vision stuff, paul, what about the driver? they could see him, right?

so did people who were at the scenes of the shootings report seeing the blue car driven by a dark skinned man?

As a gun owning RWG, I am automatically profiled as evil and bad.  That doesn't sit well and I'm not ready to send accolades to Chief Moose.

Try [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19824-2002Oct25.html][b]TEN[/b][/url] times.

Yeah, you read that right, [b]TEN TIMES[/b].

-kill-9

Yep, ten times the cops thought the car & it's occupants were suspicious enought to warrant a records check of the car license plate. Yet nobody took the time to even run the occupants for warrants or fill out a field interview card.

Two transient black males, driving a piece of shit car, with temporary out of state tags.  Even Former LAPD chief Willie Williams would stop that car if it drove through his patrol area.

Ain't it great that on the 13th Moose told the media to shut up and stop asking him about that blue Chevy Caprice?  I like it that the gas SWAT station cops got there late because Moose ordered that a letter from the sniper not be opened so that they could play around for a day or so with the envelope.  Who would have ever thought that there was a clue in it?  I laughed my butt off when the ATF and Moose called the cops that said there was a threat to children liars and then had to retract it the same day.  Even the other agencies in the area said that they were not getting the info that they needed from the taskforce.  In fact it appears that cops who got disgusted with the whole Moose thing leaked enough info for the public to catch these guys.  Hats of to the rank and file police.  To hell with the political buttheads running the show.

There were some AQ training tapes that were not shown in the US.  They showed Moscow type takeovers of office buildings, malls, and other public places.  They also showed assassinations on golf courses and I believe some shootings from vehicles.  I did not see them myself and it may take a few days for me to remember where I saw the story.  Maybe BBC?

They were both in the trunk? A gay embrace perhaps?

Was only pointing out that your statement was incorrect on the home depot non-witness being the first to say that. It really doesn't matter if it was total bull (and you now think the police did a great job disregarding that part). They sure didn't disregard the white van and that was irrelevant witness testimony too!



FBI? This topic is about [u]Chief Moose[/u] and how he may have impeded the investigation with his own biases.

You know I also heard they stopped these guys three times (but whatever it was... ten) in the caprice (so they did a good job of sealing off the area), but they were let go every time. Had the car been searched they may have found the rifle (the perps sure as hell weren't geniuses, having been caught asleep [u]with the rifle visible in the back seat[/u]). The only explanation that fits for me is the one suggested in the topic article.

I didn't know any of this. Thanks for the info. Anyone now think Moose did a good job?

Profiling is part of everyday life, the Cops do it and all of us do it. As for Moose and the "Task Force" , they dropped the ball more than FSU did yesterday. What a clusterfuxk!!

Yes i must agree we all do profile on race, it is a basic survival instinct really, nothing really evil about it, but when the cops and feds
stop looking for nonwhites just because it is uncommon for them to commit this sort of crime, even when witnesses say otherwise, it puts me on the offensive with ALL LEO's.