Posted: 2/14/2004 4:59:37 PM EDT
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I am interested in learning about welding. Basically welding some angle iron and 1/4-1/2 steel. I have seen gas welders, Flux welders and others. ANy suggestions? DIrection? Thanks Sgtar15 |
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Weeeeee, I like welding! :P Flux core or a buzz box are just fine for what you want. Mig with gas is better for sheet metal indoors, outdoors you have to watch for the gas being blown off of your puddle. Outdoors, fluxcore has a slight edge until you get thin. Not Mig, But I have actually welded "miles" with a TIG welder over the years. Really. |
| Well,I don't know "how interested" you are,but they have welding classes at the community college out here,might check it out. I bought what they call a Lincoln buss box back in the 80's and I soon found out that I also needed a grinder[:)]...lot of fun learning thought. Now days they have mig,tig,wire feed..ect..ect. I dont know anything about them.You might also check the library. |
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This is what I see in a Harbor Frieght add: [b] Chicago Electric 90 amp Flux Welder Designed to use self-shielding flux xored welding wire, eliminating the need for gas and regulators. Includes supplies *uses .035 or .030 fluxed-cored wire *Self regulating feed control *Thermal protection with warning light $129[/b] Now they also have larger ones and others taht are ARC welders. Like I said...mostly steel and angle iron. SGtar15 |
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Just out of curiosity, you do realize just how thick/heavy 1/2" thick steel is right? Hell, 1/4" thick steel is pretty damn thick for steel. I want to learn to weld too, but all the CC classes in my area are during the day, so I'm SOL. I plan to just buy a machine, read a book, and start fucking up pieces of scrap and seeing if I can't blow myself up in the process. Kinda how i learn everything else.... |
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I am the welding "expert" at work. I have been doing this for 15 years, so I kinda know what I am talking about. If you want to weld 1/2 inch steel get a stick welding machine. Look around for a used Lincoln. The good ones were red and had a circular dial in the middle of it. You will need a 3/16" 6011 or 6013 electrode for a root pass. That means your first pass up the groove. You will need a cap rod, use 1/4" 7018. You will not get enough penetration with a cheapie wire machine. If you want to weld sheet metal, and by this I mean from 1/8 inch down to 1/16 inch get a cheapie wire machine. Get yourself a good hood. Don't weld in short sleeves. The welders put out rays that will burn your skin, and your eyes. |
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I have been welding for over 25 years and with my experience I will give my 2 cents. Stay away from all 120 volt machines unless you are welding only sheet metal. Lincoln makes a very good 225 amp AC stick welder. I take a lot of practice but is very good welder. If you can aford it get the AC/DC model. Dont use the 6013 rod it comes with use a 7018 or 7014 (my preference). 1/8 diameter is a all around choice. Mig is about the easiest to learn to do. Stay away from the flux core (gasless) wire unless its 120v model or heavy duty welding on special metals. I have not done any Tig welding so I can say what to look for. At work I use a 300 amp Mig with mixed gas and is a very solid machine. To buy a machine of that size is very expensive. Bobwrench |
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Stick: difficult to learn, difficult to use MIG: great for professional work That listing looks like a good price, otherwise you can find the same thing at walmart for about the same price (+/- $130). The flux core wire feed welder will suit most people best for most jobs. I would highly recommend a wire feed welder over a stick welder for the beginner. If you are going to be using the welder alot, you may want to get a wire feed welder that can convert to MIG in time. (these are more expensive $300+), but allows you to weld different metals such as aluminum) I'm taking a welding class right now, It's fun and I have learned alot (mainly just for credit hours) but its not necessary that you take a class to make strong welds. It just takes practice. Edited to add: the guys above are right, for the real thick stuff you should use a stick welder (ex: barges, bridges, etc.) |
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Welding is great, and if you love to build stuff, you will be immediately hooked. Get the basics down, preferably with some sort of CC instruction, or maybe a friend. The class is best because you learn about what makes welds strong, and what makes them weak. Then practice, practie and practice. Welding technique is kinda funny...its not real concrete sometimes. I have had different instructors tell me totally different ways to do things. Each person has some methods that work for them. Don't let this intimidate you becasue its actually very fun to learn. For the hobby welder, probably the most versatile welder would be a "stick" welder. Mig is easier to learn, but is generally less strong than stick and a lot harder to tell when you have a good, strong weld. You can have a beautiful MIG weld that has absolutely no penetration. Stick on the other hand, is slightly harder to master, but is stronger and when you have a good weld, you'll be able to tell. Mig tends to instill a false sense of ability in beginners(did with me) whereas stick doesn't really forgive till you know what you're doing. With stick welding, because of the flux on the electrodes, it can handle wind and rusty steel. Also by changing the type of electrodes you use, its possible to do a wide range of projects down from sheet-metal up to thick plate. Youd can change a lot of properties by just changing your welding rod. Fluxcore (wire-type, similar to MIG, but..with flux in the core!) offers similar flux advantages as stick such as wind/rust, but still suffers from the same problems as Mig with penetration. Fluxcore also seems much easier to get slag inclusions than stick. The stick system is much more simple with no moving parts, no gas bottles and no spools of wire. If you were going to do sheetmetal all day, MIG might be a better choice(much easier for super thin stuff), but for the thick steel you want to do and general uses, I'd go with a stick welder. I have used this welder for quite a few projects, and believe it has a reputation as a pretty good entry-level/garage welder: [url]http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.asp?p=2494[/url] What you should look for (that Lincoln has all of these): -runs off 220V (110V welders are fairly weak) - 200A AC at least - DC also That welder is good up all the way up to around 3/8" plate on the 225A AC setting in my experience. I think it runs about $300 |
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ARC, Stick, and Buzz-box all refer to "stick" welding and welders. "Flat-steel" is just that, flat strips of steel. "Car metal"? Like fenders? Thats going to be tough. If you get a stick welder like I mentioned above, you can do probably from 3/8" on down to however good you are. You can do some sheetmetal with stick if you get some really small, fast-freeze electrodes. Its gonna take practice though. This is like anything. No one welder will do it all, but the stick welder will do most of what you need it for and do it well. |
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Probably the best advice I could offer, is to sign-up for an entry-level welding course/night class at a local High School or Vo-Tech center. The classes usually run about $150-$350... This way, you will learn the very important fundamentals involved with welding. There really is more to it than just melting metal together... The money spent on training will save you costly, and possibly dangerous mistakes. You will learn quickly what NOT to do... Anybody can buy a welder and glob chicken shit looking welds on a peice of metal. If you finish a welding course, you will learn how to make the welds STRONG, and look like a machine did them. You will also learn what kind of welding/welder you DON'T want... |
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sgtar Are you sure you mean 1/4 inch steel and not 1/8 inch? 1/8 inch and 3/16 are the most common you will find for angle. 1/4 and up is really heavy. If you are going to weld things like on a vehicle, bicycles and make projects out of mild steel up to 3/16 go to home depot and check out one of their Lincoln weld pack 150 mig or go to a welding shop but like others have said forget about the 110 Volt AC machines. I would also suggest getting the gas set up to use instead of the flux wire. A mig is much easier to learn to weld with than a stick welder and you can weld thin metal like auto bodies with it as well as thicker mild steel. The hardest thing to learning to use a mig is learning to set up the voltages. But once you figure it out a mig is a piece of cake to use. Miller and Hobart also make a good small machine but for the money I like the Lincoln. email me if you have any more questions, I will look up some good books to help you out. [url]http://www.weldingmart.com/lincoln.htmhttp://www.weldingmart.com/lincoln.htm[/url] |
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I agree wholeheartedly with purchasing a Lincoln stick welder. You can obtain a good used one (the model mentioned by bobwrench has been around for over 25 years and is still great) for a reasonable price. It has a large disk in the front with a crank handle. As you crank it either way, the needle indicator moves right and left across the amperage scale. It is what I learned on in high school. A quality hood is a must along with welding gloves and a chip hammer. A leather apron is also a good idea (welders apron) On real thick metal (1/4" and thicker) grind a 45 degree chamfer along mating surfaces so that you can go full height. Run the center of the groove and then over the top of that. Don't set amperage too high (hot) and move slow and steady in small arcs. Whn you finish your pass it should look like this ((((((((((((((((((((((((). If your stick sticks, amperage is too low (cold) If you burn through, you are moving too slow or are too hot. Stick welding is not difficult. Just remember, slow and steady. And once you get good, you can do rivets with a stick welder (crank up real hot, drive stick all the way through then slowly back out of the hole for it to fill back in. Voila, welded rivet.) |
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Quoted: What is Flat steel? What is an ARC welder used for? I have figured that I am probably staying around 1/4 steel and some angle iron....like car metal and such. SO..WHat do I need? I don't want any gas. Sgtar15 Hmm...sounds to me like you'd best start out with a simple set up. Like, say, a couple knitting needles and a wall socket. [;)] cynic |
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It has been said that the "Chicago Electric" welders sold by Harbor Freight use non-standard wire diameters – which locks you in to buying their wire. I'm sure someone who owns one will be able to comment further. At any rate, they're not anywhere near the quality of a Hobart, Lincoln or Miller (and don't plan on being able to find repair parts for them, either). Quality ranking: 1. Miller 2. Hobart (and some Lincoln models - avoid the cheap imported models!) 3. Century (which also sells some models under the Sears Craftsman brand) 4. Campbell Hausfeld 5. Everyone else Personally, I see little need for a 230 volt machine, unless you're working on farm equipment. A 120 volt 135 amp MIG welder will handle 1/4" steel in a single pass – and even thicker if you substitute flux-core wire. |
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Quoted: Personally, I see little need for a 230 volt machine, unless you're working on farm equipment. A 120 volt 135 amp MIG welder will handle 1/4" steel in a single pass – and even thicker if you substitute flux-core wire. I've seen enough incomplete fusion and penetration with MIG to make me leery of using a 120V setup on anything over 1/8". I specifically remember from the class I took that 1/4" was the maximum allowed (engineering wise) for short-circuiting transfer(MIG). That was considering 220V welders too. It is simply not possible to create enough heat by short circuiting that small wire on the steel. Stick creates much more heat with its large electrodes and more stable arc. Its not just farm equipment, but all kinds of random "bigger" stuff that will come up. Trailers, 4x4 stuff, etc. You can always turn town a 200A, 220V welder, but you can't turn up a 135A 110V welder. And you know if you have that 110V welder you'll be tempted to use it on something you shouldn't [;)] You want to do 3/8" and car sheetmetal? Sounds like you should get both [:D] |
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[i][size=4]Welding 101:[/size=4][/i] [u][b][size=2]You need three basic things to weld:[/size=2][/b][/u] [b]Electric Arc[/b] - for heat [b]Shielding Gas[/b] - to help stablize the arc and protect the molten pool of metal from contaminants in the air [b]Filler Metal[/b] - gotta have this to fill in the groove. You can't really just "melt the two pieces together." [u][b][size=2]How the main processes do this:[/size=2][/b][/u] [b]Stick(aka. Arc)[/b]- The filler metal is the center of the "stick" electrode. The flux(that stuff on the outside of the electrode) burns and creates a shielding gas. The flux also has a cleaning action on the metal. No moving parts, just clamps. [b]MIG(aka. Wire-feed)[/b] - The filler metal is in a spool of wire that is constantly fed out of the center of the "mig gun." Shielding gas comes from a bottle and is fed out of a nozzle in the MIG gun. Moving parts in the welder: wire feed motor and valves for the gas. [b]Flux-Core[/b] - The filler metal is fed through a wire, the same as MIG. This wire has flux in the core that burns and creates a gas the same way stick electrodes do. This also performs a cleaning action. Moving parts in the welder: wire-feed motor. Note: some MIG welders will do both MIG and Flux-core by simply changing the wire and addign/removing the gas bottle. Theres a few other setting changes, so make sure the welder will do it. |
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Quoted: Welding 101: You need three basic things to weld: [b]Electric Arc[/b] - for heat [b]Shielding Gas[/b] - to help stablize the arc and protect the molten pool of metal from contaminants in the air [b]Filler Metal[/b] - gotta have this to fill in the groove. You can't really just "melt the two pieces together? How the main processes do this: [b]Stick(aka. Arc)[/b]- The filler metal is the center of the "stick" electrode. The flux(that stuff on the outside of the electrode) burns and creates a shielding gas. The flux also has a cleaning action on the metal. [b]MIG(aka. Wire-feed)[/b] - The filler metal is in a spool of wire that is constantly fed out of the center of the "mig gun." Shielding gas comes from a bottle and is fed out of a nozzle in the MIG gun. [b]Flux-Core[/b] - The filler metal is fed through a wire, the same as MIG. This wire has flux in the core that burns and creates a gas the same way stick electrodes do. This also performs a cleaning action. Good listing there. I used to inspect welds for the pharm industry for a living so more of my knowledge was on types or steel and how things can contanimate it. Nearly all the machines I worked with were AMi automatic orbital welders. |
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Flux core is type of wire for wire feed welders, as mentioned above solid wire is also a type of wire used in wire feed welders. MIG = Metal Inert Gas A wire feed welder using a solid core wire with gas from a cylinder to keep the weld "pure". MOST MIG welders will support BOTH Solid and Flux Core wires (YMMV) There are WIRE FEED WELDERS that all they do is ACT like a MIG, and will only accept Flux Core Wire. (there are no provisions for a gas system(solid wire)) (also note that SOME of these types DO have add on kits to make them MIG welders) IN My experince, Flux core is "ok", but dirty to clean up after. You dont have to have gas when you want to weld. MIG on the other hand is superior. Cleaner welds = easier cleanup. You can also do Aluminum (requires a different wire than steel and sometimes a different Gas) CO2/AR vs CO2 IMNSHO, get a miller MIG. |
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Quoted: Good info there G-Rated. Thank You. It sounds like I want a Flux welder. It also appears my knowledge of steels is weeks. Can a Flux welder also be used on alunimum? Sgtar15 Flux-core or Stick? (both have a "flux") The consensus seems to be to stay away from flux-core, if you didn't catch that in the posts above. It serves a similar purpose as stick, but doesn't quite work as well. Aluminum gets tricky, lets just worry about carbon steel for now or your head will explode. [;)] |
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If you are going to weld aluminum you are going to need a TIG welder, some wire feeds can be used to weld aluminum but you will need a differnt wire for it. I would say that if you are going to buy a stick welder use that for the heavier guage steel, Wire feeds work great for 3/16" and 10 guage up to 22 guage steel. |
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Quoted: Mig is easier to learn, but is generally less strong than stick and a lot harder to tell when you have a good, strong weld. You can have a beautiful MIG weld that has absolutely no penetration. Stick on the other hand, is slightly harder to master, but is stronger and when you have a good weld, you'll be able to tell. Mig tends to instill a false sense of ability in beginners(did with me) whereas stick doesn't really forgive till you know what you're doing. Pay attention to this guy, he knows what he is talking about. Alot of people will suggest a mig, and its great for little odd jobs. However when strength counts give me a stick welder. One of the tests we had in tech school was after completing a bevel weld was to grind it flat, cut it into stips and then the instructor would pick a couple of random strips and you would then put them into a tester that would bend the strips into a nice U shape (with the welded part in the middle) with the help of a hyd. jack. Any crack at all in the weld would be an automatic fail. On the stick welds, even a bad weld would would still hold. On the mig welds you could often tell right off if it would hold or not. Sometimes they would break right in half without much pressure at all. And that was even if you had it looking spotless (but really was'nt) before running your next bead. In short I guess what I'm saying is mig may have nice pretty beads, but I think a [b]good[/b] stick welder is the way to go. [uzi] |
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Quoted: So how about this [url]http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/20015/00920015000-190.jpg[/url] From [url]http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00920015000[/url] $290. Or shall I go bigger...Hmmmm. Both? Sgtar15 Well it 220v but it is a stick welder I work with 10 to 16 guage steel everyday, 10 guage is good to work with and 16 guage is like tinfoil after working with 10,12,14 guage steel blanks. Just remember when you are welding that you need a good heat source, and this means you should get something that runs of 220v. I have a Millermatic, that was 440v(3 phase) that was converted to 220v. yes a board can be made by an electrican. City and county Law enforcement officals get a litlle worried when you want to put a 440v hook up in your garage. I would say that stick welding 16 guage would be tricky at best. |
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Quoted: So how about this [url]http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/20015/00920015000-190.jpg[/url] From [url]http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00920015000[/url] $290. Or shall I go bigger...Hmmmm. Both? Sgtar15 Here's the skinny on that welder Sgtar15. Thats a good welder, but it's AC only. That is not necessarily bad and for all the stuff 1/8" and thicker not really a big deal. If you get the next model up from that, it will do DC also. The DC option will alow you to do a few more tricks and will allow you to weld thin material easier. It's a nice option to have. You never did tell us exacly what you intend to use this for. Are you just a tinkerer and builder in general or do you have something more specific in mind? |
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Good rule of thumb when buying a welder... Figure out what size you need, then go bigger... I had a Snap-on 140A welder that ran on 110V... I had to max out the machine to weld .134 wall roll bar tubing. It also drew so much current, I had to install a dedicated 110V line just to keep it from tripping breakers... I'd strongly suggest going with a 220V machine...You won't need to work it as hard. I replaced my 140A machine with a 250A MIG/TIG combo...That would weld heavy stuff no problem... Stay away from a Stick (ARC) welder if you are just starting out. It can be very frustrating for a newbie. There's a reason it's called "STICK"... The welding rod has a tendency to "stick" to the work...With a stick welder, you don't actually want the rod to dip in the puddle, or touch the metal you are welding. You only want to scratch the metal to get it lit, then hold a small gap for the filler metal to jump onto the work...It can be very frustrating to someone trying to learn... The weld is very much affected by travel speed, direction of travel, type of metal being welded, type of welding rod (6011/7018, etc...) angle of rod, position of work relative to gravity,(flat, vertical, or overhead welding) temperature of work, and rods, etc... Most of the adjustments are in your technique...Whereas a MIG welder is much more forgiving, and user friendly... |
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sgtar15 IMHO Before you buy a welder you should buy THE WELDERS'S HANDBOOK by Richard Finch I think I saw it a Lowes recently ARC welder aka "Buzz-box" good for heavy steel $50-500 used new Mig welder aka "wirefeed" better for light steel exhaust pipes ect $129-5000 Be very leary of used mig welders its hard to get parts for some of the older ones!!! You should have a thuro understanding of "DUTY CYCLE" 20% duty cycle = you can weld 2 out of every 10 minutes before the welder needs a rest 30% duty cycle means 3 out of every 10 ect I believe having a buzz box and a small mig is the way to go but then you need to learn 2 welding processes Heres some other stuff you should have helmet gloves welders cap and apron "chiping hammer Visegrips,clamps,vise, welding table(make your own) grinding wheel a 4" or larger is good don't forget your safty glasses when you grind I have been to the er too many times with a piece of steel in my eye!!! a drill press Some guys can get by without a set of oxyace torchs but I am not one of those guys!!! REMEMBER WELDING IS 90% PREPWORK 10% WELDING IF YOUR WORK IS CLEAN WELDING IS MUCH EASIER! If you have any more questions just ask BIG WELDOR EXTRODINAR MASTER MUNIPULATIOR MOLTEN METAL OH YEAH NEVER TUCK YOUR PANTS INSIDE YOUR BOOTS [flame][flame][flame][flame][flame][flame] |
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Quoted: Can a Flux welder also be used on alunimum? From everything I have read, welding aluminum is much more difficult than welding steel. However, many of the small wire feeds can be modified with standard kits to weld aluminum. Even for those experienced in welding steels, welding aluminum alloys can present quite a challenge. Higher thermal conductivity and low melting point of aluminum alloys can easily lead to burnthrough unless welders follow prescribed procedures. Also, feeding aluminum welding wire during gas-metal-arc-welding (GMAW) presents a challenge because the wire is softer than steel, has a lower column strength, and tends to tangle at the drive roll. [url=http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/articles/content/alum.asp]source[/url] |
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I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to post because I saw some real errors in the first few posts. 1) Do NOT buy a "bargain" machine. Save your money or buy used, but buy Lincoln, Miller or Hobart. 2) Don't even think about a 110v machine. 220v or gas engine is the only way for anything other than sheet metal. 3) For carbon (mild) steels in the range you're talking, you will use [red]3/32" or 1/8"[/red] maximum. For welding in the flat position, these diameters should be in the 100 - 130 amp range. 4) I'd advise staying with rods in the E70xx category since they are are not only of more tensile strength, but "behave" differently than rods in the E60xx range. Stick with industry standards as a beginner, BAD HABITS ARE HARD TO UNLEARN. 5) Quick reference on rod numbering: first two numbers = tensile strength in 1000's of pounds (kips), third number is position of use (1=all position, 2=flat and horizontal only), fourth number is unique to the alloy of the filler metal and the nature of the flux coating. 6) Have a grinder handy. Unlike wood, steel can be "de-welded" and done over if you make a mistake. SGT - if you want any references or further info, IM or email me. |
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Quoted: So how about this [url]http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/20015/00920015000-190.jpg[/url] From [url]http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00920015000[/url] $290. Or shall I go bigger...Hmmmm. Both? Sgtar15 SGT, that's a good machine, but is AC only. I will only weld reliablly with rods formulated for AC work (which 7018 are not and 7014 is not reccommended) and the current output is about 20% lower on AC. Lincolns similar model, the AC/[redDC[/red]225S is probably about $100 bucks more and has been a mainstay of small shops, farmers and DIY types for 30 years or more. Also, if you get good at stick and REALLY want to learn TIG for aluminum you CAN adapt this machine for "scratch-start" TIG, suitable for learning purposes. Lastly, one thing to remember about wire feeders is that the whole design behind them is the lack of "resistance heating" in the wire since it is energized only at the "stick out" from the contact tip. Wire feeders operating at higher currents (500-600 amps) are used extensively in bridge and structural welding. The key determinant is the size of the POWER SUPPLY. You aren't going to get any big power output (or duty cycle) out of a machine that you can expect to power off a 20 amp 22v braker in your house. A small wire feeder can be very versatile for around the shop, but is a skill best acquired AFTER you master the basics. |
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I have the Millermatic 175 in my shop for my wroughtiron buisness. It will weld anything you have mentioned. Thickness of material means nothing. Multipass welding process will let you weld ANY THICKNESS you desire. As far as strength goes, I welded highpressure(5000 up to 20,000psi) with mig and fluxcore for three years for oilfield equipment. Hows that for penetration and strength? Aluminum can be welded with the Miller mig machines with a spool gun and different shield gas. I put a circumferential mig weld in a Delta II rocket last week at my "real" job. They are aluminum, btw, and they take some pretty harsh stress loads. Especially the LOX tanks. MIG welding gives you one hand tacking capability without the difficulty of striking an arc that SMAC(stick) welding has. The ease of learning how to weld with MIG makes it hands down the best choice for beginners. I could have you making decent welds with MIG in about one hour, if you aren't a drooling retard. Might take two then. If you can use a caulk gun you can MIG weld. |
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Get a used lincoln buzz box. Buy 60 and 70 series rods. 60's are the duct tape of welding. they bust rust and trash and leave a decent weld. nice to use on really nasty material when you are too lazy to prep it properly. (don't use this technique on things requiring safety!) Watch the puddle. The biggest problem people have with welding is not achieving proper penetration and movement rates. just because your bead looks sexy doesn't mean it is. People routinely fail welding tests because of their inability to grasp the simple concept that when welding both objects must melt and fuse together. The filler just helps achieve this. The best way to describe it is that people just run a bead of filler metal over the crack, without actually melting the crack together. Aluminum requires amazing amounts of heat and technique to weld. Don't even bother. |
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You need to remember who you are talking here. We are talking to beninners, not industry proffessionals. High end MIG and Flux-core machines are bad-ass, and can produce some very strong welds in those that know what they are doing, but out of range for most beginners. I just looked at that Millermatic 175...it goes for $650. Looks good (I REALLY liked the Millermatic 250 I used). That's about the cheapest MIG I'd go for, but beginners still need to be carefull. The "MIG is just like a caulk gun" attitude is what results in soooo many bad welds that still look good and then break at the worst time. If you plan to do critical welding with you MIG, then please take a class. It is really important that you know what you are doing. |