Posted: 9/17/2026 11:26:36 PM EDT
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This seems like a good video. Not perfect but good. While these radical influencers focus their main attacks on Catholics, they are NOT Protestant and are attacking them as well. When they picked up a Bible for the first time they were "filled with the Spirit," reinterpreted the Gospel, and began their attacks on Catholics and Protestants.  The rise of RADICAL EVANGELICAL influencers |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I've had a policy of not watching Redeemed Zoomer since he called the ACNA a bunch of schismatics for leaving The Episcopal Church. Then he said that Anglo-Catholics are a bunch of larpers. |
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Oh. Redeemed zoomer. ... thaaat explains it. This is the guy that says if you go to a presbyterian church in america other than the ANTI christian pc usa, you are a schismatic and possibly heretical. He has very little wisdom and he is not a good source because he makes gimme level mistakes like (see above) and he refuses (to the best of my knowledge) correction on them and I suspect he's in the position he is because of his age and the stuff he talks about. It is grossly unwise to believe anything he says merely because he says it. ------------ "I must confess I've not watched that much material from them ..." rz claims to be protestant, then on slide number one, re: rcc - "their doctrin of justification is wrong but does not deny the essentials of the faith, contained in the creeds." Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, and simply pivot to: yes, the position he's pushing against IS the protestant position on justification. "you need a phd in supralapsarian autism to undertand the difference" (in rcc and biblical justification) ... no... no you don't. one is that you're completely justified by christ's works at the point of your belief in salvation and that that satisfies the justice required by God because the father and the son and the spirit agreed that the son would take that punishment for those who believe in him for salvation. The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification. If rz thinks himself proper to be teaching on christanity broadly and he doesn't get this, he needs to step away from the public position and fix his ignorance of these basic topics. Rz then says traditionally protestants believed people who believe in the RCC theology can be saved, but if in that you include the rcc definition of justification, they can't be. Yes, there are (for a short time, till they leave) people who are christians in the catholic church, but they don't believe the catholic version of justification. The bit about people who care about soteriology (how you get saved) as what is central to the faith not caring about the nature of christ (christology) is straight up crack-brained silliness. His slide three on institutionalism is effectively his ignorant position on what institutions are or ar not churches and that drives whether you can leave one rightly or not in his view. Do peple in america jump around and not treat the instittuions as important - yes. He horrendously mangles sola scriptura as being the highest authority for the church and then is so ignorant as to sit there with a straight face and say that it doesn't control how the individual interprets the bible!  NO.If the meaning of the text and what it claims about itself do not control the individual the CANNOT control any group of individuals, because for it to do so, it must control those indvidiauls individually. He has literally just made the socialists mistake about reality! With that, I'm out, he's worse than I knew and he needs outside correction and enough humility to accept it. |
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Originally Posted By lygxis: Oh. Redeemed zoomer. ... thaaat explains it. This is the guy that says if you go to a presbyterian church in america other than the ANTI christian pc usa, you are a schismatic and possibly heretical. He has very little wisdom and he is not a good source because he makes gimme level mistakes like (see above) and he refuses (to the best of my knowledge) correction on them and I suspect he's in the position he is because of his age and the stuff he talks about. It is grossly unwise to believe anything he says merely because he says it. ------------ "I must confess I've not watched that much material from them ..." rz claims to be protestant, then on slide number one, re: rcc - "their doctrin of justification is wrong but does not deny the essentials of the faith, contained in the creeds." Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, and simply pivot to: yes, the position he's pushing against IS the protestant position on justification. "you need a phd in supralapsarian autism to undertand the difference" (in rcc and biblical justification) ... no... no you don't. one is that you're completely justified by christ's works at the point of your belief in salvation and that that satisfies the justice required by God because the father and the son and the spirit agreed that the son would take that punishment for those who believe in him for salvation. The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification. If rz thinks himself proper to be teaching on christanity broadly and he doesn't get this, he needs to step away from the public position and fix his ignorance of these basic topics. Rz then says traditionally protestants believed people who believe in the RCC theology can be saved, but if in that you include the rcc definition of justification, they can't be. Yes, there are (for a short time, till they leave) people who are christians in the catholic church, but they don't believe the catholic version of justification. The bit about people who care about soteriology (how you get saved) as what is central to the faith not caring about the nature of christ (christology) is straight up crack-brained silliness. His slide three on institutionalism is effectively his ignorant position on what institutions are or ar not churches and that drives whether you can leave one rightly or not in his view. Do peple in america jump around and not treat the instittuions as important - yes. He horrendously mangles sola scriptura as being the highest authority for the church and then is so ignorant as to sit there with a straight face and say that it doesn't control how the individual interprets the bible! NO.If the meaning of the text and what it claims about itself do not control the individual the CANNOT control any group of individuals, because for it to do so, it must control those indvidiauls individually. He has literally just made the socialists mistake about reality! With that, I'm out, he's worse than I knew and he needs outside correction and enough humility to accept it. >spouts a bunch of misinformation >leaves Dang man you showed…us? If you come back, please steel man the Catholic explanation of justification. Because I don’t think you know what it is. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: >spouts a bunch of misinformation >leaves Dang man you showed…us? If you come back, please steel man the Catholic explanation of justification. Because I don’t think you know what it is. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: Oh. Redeemed zoomer. ... thaaat explains it. This is the guy that says if you go to a presbyterian church in america other than the ANTI christian pc usa, you are a schismatic and possibly heretical. He has very little wisdom and he is not a good source because he makes gimme level mistakes like (see above) and he refuses (to the best of my knowledge) correction on them and I suspect he's in the position he is because of his age and the stuff he talks about. It is grossly unwise to believe anything he says merely because he says it. ------------ "I must confess I've not watched that much material from them ..." rz claims to be protestant, then on slide number one, re: rcc - "their doctrin of justification is wrong but does not deny the essentials of the faith, contained in the creeds." Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, and simply pivot to: yes, the position he's pushing against IS the protestant position on justification. "you need a phd in supralapsarian autism to undertand the difference" (in rcc and biblical justification) ... no... no you don't. one is that you're completely justified by christ's works at the point of your belief in salvation and that that satisfies the justice required by God because the father and the son and the spirit agreed that the son would take that punishment for those who believe in him for salvation. The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification. If rz thinks himself proper to be teaching on christanity broadly and he doesn't get this, he needs to step away from the public position and fix his ignorance of these basic topics. Rz then says traditionally protestants believed people who believe in the RCC theology can be saved, but if in that you include the rcc definition of justification, they can't be. Yes, there are (for a short time, till they leave) people who are christians in the catholic church, but they don't believe the catholic version of justification. The bit about people who care about soteriology (how you get saved) as what is central to the faith not caring about the nature of christ (christology) is straight up crack-brained silliness. His slide three on institutionalism is effectively his ignorant position on what institutions are or ar not churches and that drives whether you can leave one rightly or not in his view. Do peple in america jump around and not treat the instittuions as important - yes. He horrendously mangles sola scriptura as being the highest authority for the church and then is so ignorant as to sit there with a straight face and say that it doesn't control how the individual interprets the bible! NO.If the meaning of the text and what it claims about itself do not control the individual the CANNOT control any group of individuals, because for it to do so, it must control those indvidiauls individually. He has literally just made the socialists mistake about reality! With that, I'm out, he's worse than I knew and he needs outside correction and enough humility to accept it. >spouts a bunch of misinformation >leaves Dang man you showed…us? If you come back, please steel man the Catholic explanation of justification. Because I don’t think you know what it is. Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, Because the point was to show where he was wrong bout the biblical position, not to fight over the difference. I won't steelman the rcc position on justifiction. It is what I posted. The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification. Other than my laughable 'your' which should be "you are" ... it simply means that one is justified by Christ's work when you first participate in the belief in the rcc idea of justifcation (and if memory serves get baptized in the rcc sacrament of baptism). It is not complete, because it does not mean you can't be un-justified in the future, and thus not perfect. Because it is not complete and thus not perfect, the righteousness infused into you picks up stains and blots when you sin and you have to participate in keeping your justification. By doing works, that remove the stains of your sins. Christ's saving work is absolutely necessary. It is not sufficient. It alone cannot save you. One mortal sin and you have to work to fix it or if you don't and you die, you are not justified, and you go to hell (Jesus' work applied to you did not stop this from happening). Off for absolution from the priest, in which you have to actually be sorry for it, then name every mortal sin to the priest (othewise, it doesn't work). Then you have to do penance to undo the natural effects of the sin. Venial sins add anothe layer of things you have to work to undo. |
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Originally Posted By lygxis: Things aren't misinformation merely because someone says they are. Well, you believe there is a strict protestant vs. catholic dichotomy on justification, which is demonstratively false. You said "you MUST participate in keeping your justification" as if that isn't the Christian position throughout our history and even most protestants adhere to it. 'Once saved, always saved' is the minority aberrant view. I could go on. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: Well, you believe there is a strict protestant vs. catholic dichotomy on justification, which is demonstratively false. You said "you MUST participate in keeping your justification" as if that isn't the Christian position throughout our history and even most protestants adhere to it. 'Once saved, always saved' is the minority aberrant view. I could go on. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: Things aren't misinformation merely because someone says they are. Well, you believe there is a strict protestant vs. catholic dichotomy on justification, which is demonstratively false. You said "you MUST participate in keeping your justification" as if that isn't the Christian position throughout our history and even most protestants adhere to it. 'Once saved, always saved' is the minority aberrant view. I could go on. I hear you and I'm not arguing against. I'm asking a question. Isn't justification and sanctification two different works of God's grace? Now, my perspective comes from personal experience and my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ: I am saved yet I am being saved. It is by/ through faith we have this relationship/ communion with God our Father. I am His child and belong to Him. I am born again. “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. ” Philippians 1:6 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.1.6.NASB1995 “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:12-13 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.2.12-13.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle There's plenty more written in the epistles, I'm speaking from what I know to be true. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. We are saved by God's grace through faith. By faith we do participate, Jesus is alive. I haven't arrived but when I do He receives all the glory! Thank you, Jesus, I can do nothing without you! “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. ” Philippians 3:12 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.3.12.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle God bless you. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: I hear you and I'm not arguing against. I'm asking a question. Isn't justification and sanctification two different works of God's grace? Originally Posted By Bishop3: I hear you and I'm not arguing against. I'm asking a question. Isn't justification and sanctification two different works of God's grace? Yes. Though I would say exchange the word 'different' with 'similar.' Now, my perspective comes from personal experience and my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ: I am saved yet I am being saved. It is by/ through faith we have this relationship/ communion with God our Father. I am His child and belong to Him. I am born again. I would include love, good works and holy sacraments along with faith, which is the fount of our justification. There's plenty more written in the epistles, I'm speaking from what I know to be true. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. We are saved by God's grace through faith. By faith we do participate, Jesus is alive. I haven't arrived but when I do He receives all the glory! Thank you, Jesus, I can do nothing without you! Depends how you define participate. I'd say a faith that participates is faithfulness, which reveals itself in good works and obedience to Christ's commandments. God bless you. You as well. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: Well, you believe there is a strict protestant vs. catholic dichotomy on justification, which is demonstratively false. You said "you MUST participate in keeping your justification" as if that isn't the Christian position throughout our history and even most protestants adhere to it. 'Once saved, always saved' is the minority aberrant view. I could go on. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: Things aren't misinformation merely because someone says they are. Well, you believe there is a strict protestant vs. catholic dichotomy on justification, which is demonstratively false. You said "you MUST participate in keeping your justification" as if that isn't the Christian position throughout our history and even most protestants adhere to it. 'Once saved, always saved' is the minority aberrant view. I could go on. I don't believe in once saved always saved. I believe we are made into new creatures, and that that is a gift, and that gift changes our nature so that we no longer have a heart of stone (hatred, dislike, refusal to accept, clinging to self worth, all against God, there's more) and have a heart softented towards God and that we see the gospel and because of the new nature, which itself is a gift, given so that none can boast, ... ... and not given to us for anything in us, and that we want to beleive on christ, and do. Without the new nature it is impossible to believe in the gospel. The downstream result of the new nature and belief in the gospel is a life of constant struggle with sin and the manifestation of the marks of the christian as seen in john's epistles. No, the biblical content of the text itself - and the meaning text is knowable - does not teach that the rcc position on justification. We clearly fundamentally disagree, so tossing insults or bold statements won't move the ball down the field. I don't accept that the rcc is the church, that it has authority to tell anyone what the bible means, and you ... well, whatever it is you personally beleive regarding that. You say dichotomy and that it's demonstratable not a dichotomy. Ok, are you willing to demonstrate it yourself without resorting to having someone else do the demonstrating? I don't expect perfection. I am *really* tired of people not putting what they actually believe in and of themselves on the line with their own words so the sloppy work of real interaction can happen. Seems nowadays we all hide behind "here's my guy and his sixty podcast playlist on youtube," this does my thinking for me." |
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Originally Posted By lygxis: I don't believe in once saved always saved. Originally Posted By lygxis: I don't believe in once saved always saved. You wrote: "The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification." So, according to this statement, if you are required to 'participate' in order to keep your justification, Christ's work is not complete and perfect. In other words, your level or lack of participation or behavior or faithfulness has no bearing on keeping your justification once you are initially justified. Sounds like once saved, always saved to me. I believe we are made into new creatures, and that that is a gift, and that gift changes our nature so that we no longer have a heart of stone (hatred, dislike, refusal to accept, clinging to self worth, all against God, there's more) and have a heart softented towards God and that we see the gospel and because of the new nature, which itself is a gift, given so that none can boast, ... ... and not given to us for anything in us, and that we want to beleive on christ, and do. Without the new nature it is impossible to believe in the gospel. The downstream result of the new nature and belief in the gospel is a life of constant struggle with sin and the manifestation of the marks of the christian as seen in john's epistles. Sounds Catholic to me. No, the biblical content of the text itself - and the meaning text is knowable - does not teach that the rcc position on justification. We clearly fundamentally disagree, so tossing insults or bold statements won't move the ball down the field. I still don't think you grasp the Catholic explanation of justification. I suggest looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then the canons of the Council of Trent. Then the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, between the Catholic Church and Lutherans. Pointing out that you are misinformed isn't an insult. I don't accept that the rcc is the church, that it has authority to tell anyone what the bible means, and you ... well, whatever it is you personally beleive regarding that. You say dichotomy and that it's demonstratable not a dichotomy. I'm not following, you set up justification as a protestant v. Catholic position. You wrote: "rz claims to be protestant, then on slide number one, re: rcc - "their doctrin of justification is wrong but does not deny the essentials of the faith, contained in the creeds." Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, and simply pivot to: yes, the position he's pushing against IS the protestant position on justification." If you're saying it is NOT a dichotomy, I agree with you. Ok, are you willing to demonstrate it yourself without resorting to having someone else do the demonstrating? I don't expect perfection. I am *really* tired of people not putting what they actually believe in and of themselves on the line with their own words so the sloppy work of real interaction can happen. Seems nowadays we all hide behind "here's my guy and his sixty podcast playlist on youtube," this does my thinking for me." I'm trying to get you to point out where your sect differs from the Catholic Christian doctrine on justification. All you've said so far is the "rcc" is wrong. But that would mean most Christians outside the Catholic Church are wrong as they share a fundamental understanding on justification with the Church. |
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Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I'm pretty sure plenty from both sides will be told "Well done, good and faithful servant." And I'm reasonably sure plenty from both sides also won't. I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." 
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Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.
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Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I'm pretty sure plenty from both sides will be told "Well done, good and faithful servant." And I'm reasonably sure plenty from both sides also won't. I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..."  I could see that in my case.
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow?
What makes the green grass grow?
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: I hear you and I'm not arguing against. I'm asking a question. Isn't justification and sanctification two different works of God's grace? Now, my perspective comes from personal experience and my walk with the Lord Jesus Christ: I am saved yet I am being saved. It is by/ through faith we have this relationship/ communion with God our Father. I am His child and belong to Him. I am born again. “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. ” Philippians 1:6 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.1.6.NASB1995 “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:12-13 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.2.12-13.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle There's plenty more written in the epistles, I'm speaking from what I know to be true. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory'. We are saved by God's grace through faith. By faith we do participate, Jesus is alive. I haven't arrived but when I do He receives all the glory! Thank you, Jesus, I can do nothing without you! “Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. ” Philippians 3:12 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/php.3.12.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle God bless you. Originally Posted By brianm: Yes. Though I would say exchange the word 'different' with 'similar.' I would include love, good works and holy sacraments along with faith, which is the fount of our justification. Depends how you define participate. I'd say a faith that participates is faithfulness, which reveals itself in good works and obedience to Christ's commandments. You as well. Yes, sir. Love is the greatest! This Love manifests (is revealed) in our obedience to Christ's commandments and the good works (we were made for these) will follow salvation because you will walk in them. What I mean by, 'faith we participate'. I'm talking about the Life of Christ in us. When I wake up He is there, when I lie down He is there. We participate daily by taking up our cross (denying self) and following Him. Jesus is the Life... (Jn. 14:6). When we participate we are by faith walking in the Spirit. It is a moment by moment communion/ fellowship with God and His people. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. That's us walking it out with Him daily. He is Faithful. Do we acknowledge His presence in our every day? “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:9 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.1.9.NASB1995 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” 2 Corinthians 13:14 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/2co.13.14.NASB1995 Holy sacraments in themselves (do not save) it is the Life of Christ that saves. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory' You must be born again (born from above) to see the Kingdom of God. How do we receive anything from God? I do not believe the RCC has a monopoly on the things of God. God is the only Sovereign, every born again believer and follower of the Lord Christ Jesus is the ekklēsia (assembly, called out, people of God). Jesus is the head of the body, the church. Jesus He is the baptizer in/ with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus's death, burial and resurrection (see the message of the cross). Trust in Him. Whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Believe on Him and you will be saved. He gives us new Life. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/eph.2.8-10.NASB1995 We are justified by faith in His blood. He has given us His Life. “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. ” Romans 5:9 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.9.NASB1995 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” Romans 5:8-11 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.8-11.NASB1995 “Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.” Galatians 5:24-26 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.24-26.NASB1995 Walk with/ follow Jesus today. Surrender to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. I have been saved by the living and enduring Word of God, and that same Word is still at work saving and transforming me today. The Holy Spirit is our witness. “Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.” Psalms 23:6 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.23.6.NASB1995 “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ” Romans 8:16 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.16.NASB1995 Do you have the inner witness in your spirit that Jesus is Lord? God loves you, God bless you. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Have a blessed and wonderful day in the Lord. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: You wrote: "The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification." So, according to this statement, if you are required to 'participate' in order to keep your justification, Christ's work is not complete and perfect. In other words, your level or lack of participation or behavior or faithfulness has no bearing on keeping your justification once you are initially justified. Sounds like once saved, always saved to me. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: I don't believe in once saved always saved. You wrote: "The other is that your are justified by christ's work but not completely and perfectly, you MUST participate in keeping your justification." So, according to this statement, if you are required to 'participate' in order to keep your justification, Christ's work is not complete and perfect. In other words, your level or lack of participation or behavior or faithfulness has no bearing on keeping your justification once you are initially justified. Sounds like once saved, always saved to me. It's not. Yes, I am being pretty specific here in treating OSAS as a placeholder for "you made your decision, now you can live any way you like" - which I reject. In my constant experience, that's what people think when you say once saved, always saved. If you'd have said "once saved, always perservering" I'd not have needed to say anything. Do people mean other things when they say it? Yes. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: I believe we are made into new creatures, and that that is a gift, and that gift changes our nature so that we no longer have a heart of stone (hatred, dislike, refusal to accept, clinging to self worth, all against God, there's more) and have a heart softented towards God and that we see the gospel and because of the new nature, which itself is a gift, given so that none can boast, ... ... and not given to us for anything in us, and that we want to beleive on christ, and do. Without the new nature it is impossible to believe in the gospel. The downstream result of the new nature and belief in the gospel is a life of constant struggle with sin and the manifestation of the marks of the christian as seen in john's epistles. Sounds Catholic to me. "Without the new nature it is impossible to believe in the gospel." That was your key. The gift of a new nature is not prevenient grace, and it's not given to everyone. Plus, note that I didn't put baptism in there either. It's definitely not the roman catholic teaching on that part of salvation. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: No, the biblical content of the text itself - and the meaning text is knowable - does not teach that the rcc position on justification. We clearly fundamentally disagree, so tossing insults or bold statements won't move the ball down the field. I still don't think you grasp the Catholic explanation of justification. I suggest looking at the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Then the canons of the Council of Trent. Then the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, between the Catholic Church and Lutherans. Pointing out that you are misinformed isn't an insult. I didn't take it as an insult, I'm just used to that happening very quickly, especially online. As for the CCC, I actually double-checked it and the vatican website before I posted in reply to you in the first place. I won't say I've studied them at depth in the past but I have read in them. It's not possible for me to know what it is you think I'm not grasping about RCC teaching on justification, I have to have a nail to hang my hat on there. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: I don't accept that the rcc is the church, that it has authority to tell anyone what the bible means, and you ... well, whatever it is you personally believe regarding that. You say dichotomy and that it's demonstratable not a dichotomy. I'm not following, you set up justification as a protestant v. Catholic position. You wrote: "rz claims to be protestant, then on slide number one, re: rcc - "their doctrin of justification is wrong but does not deny the essentials of the faith, contained in the creeds." Lets lay aside the theological war between bible believers and the rcc on justification regarding who's right and who's wrong for just a second, and simply pivot to: yes, the position he's pushing against IS the protestant position on justification." If you're saying it is NOT a dichotomy, I agree with you. I said I wasn't sure if it was a dichotomy because it may disagree in more ways than just one - I meant that I didn't know if dichotomy was enough to meaningfully say how they disagree. Biblically, if you are not christ's sheep, you cannot hear him, and you cannot be saved - there is no prevenient grace - those who are saved (some of the way it works I mentioned above) are given a new nature and because they have that new nature they will not want and cannot want to reject the Gospel (because their new nature desires to accept it - it's not programming, its literally them). That's what's meant when it's said that this particular grace is irresistible. Then they repent (realize their lives have been wrong and they reject their behavior and such as wrong) and accept that Christ died for them. At that point they are as justified with God as they ever can be and NO part of their behavior after that plays any part in their justification. BECAUSE they are a new creature they will have a lifelong struggle to fight sin. You struggle against sin not to make yourself right with God (you can't, he couldn't accept what is not wholly righteous as righteous) but because you're a new creature (see paul's struggle in romans 7 - that's about christians). What makes you justified (set right with God) is christ's life and works and perfect law keeping being applied to you when you repent of your sins and believe he died for your sins. The very ability to believe he did is a gift, given in a way such that you can't even boast about it being you that made yourself able to believe it. Once that is applied to you, your justification is fully done, that's it, nothing else required to make you justified or keep you justified. The gift of salvation covers all past, present, and future sins of the believer. You struggle not because you do it to be justified, or keep your justification, you struggle against sin because you have the new nature, which was required to even believe in the gospel in the first place. Originally Posted By brianm: Originally Posted By lygxis: Ok, are you willing to demonstrate it yourself without resorting to having someone else do the demonstrating? I don't expect perfection. I am *really* tired of people not putting what they actually believe in and of themselves on the line with their own words so the sloppy work of real interaction can happen. Seems nowadays we all hide behind "here's my guy and his sixty podcast playlist on youtube," this does my thinking for me." I'm trying to get you to point out where your sect differs from the Catholic Christian doctrine on justification. All you've said so far is the "rcc" is wrong. But that would mean most Christians outside the Catholic Church are wrong as they share a fundamental understanding on justification with the Church. I wouldn't know how many that claim to be christians that beleive in prevenient grace, the person with a heart set on the flesh (romans 8:7-8) cooperates with that grace ... The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: and that justification (being made right with God) is conferred in the act of baptism. |
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Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I'm pretty sure plenty from both sides will be told "Well done, good and faithful servant." And I'm reasonably sure plenty from both sides also won't. I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." That's the thing. God knows we can't be perfect. That's why God actually giving perfect salvation for free - you don't have to earn it, you don't have to work to make yourself right with him, you don't have to work to keep yourself right with him, and the struggle you will engage in will be something you want to do (and that struggle won't play a part in your being right with him). It's real 100% and free. All who beleive their sins are wrong and that they have nothing to offer Good (not even being a special example of how great he is to save such a wrech) and believe Christ died for them ... are saved. |
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Originally Posted By lygxis: That's the thing. God knows we can't be perfect. That's why God actually giving perfect salvation for free - you don't have to earn it, you don't have to work to make yourself right with him, you don't have to work to keep yourself right with him, and the struggle you will engage in will be something you want to do (and that struggle won't play a part in your being right with him). It's real 100% and free. All who beleive their sins are wrong and that they have nothing to offer Good (not even being a special example of how great he is to save such a wrech) and believe Christ died for them ... are saved. Originally Posted By lygxis: Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I'm pretty sure plenty from both sides will be told "Well done, good and faithful servant." And I'm reasonably sure plenty from both sides also won't. I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." That's the thing. God knows we can't be perfect. That's why God actually giving perfect salvation for free - you don't have to earn it, you don't have to work to make yourself right with him, you don't have to work to keep yourself right with him, and the struggle you will engage in will be something you want to do (and that struggle won't play a part in your being right with him). It's real 100% and free. All who beleive their sins are wrong and that they have nothing to offer Good (not even being a special example of how great he is to save such a wrech) and believe Christ died for them ... are saved. I understand it like this: if you are practicing habitual sin you are of the devil. That may sound harsh, right (if you are practicing habitual sin)? You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. Those born again (a new creation) are with no doubt daily confronting the flesh (must deny self, take up their cross and crucify its passions & desires, mortifying the deeds of the body) the spirit and the flesh are contrary to one another (you cannot reconcile these). “Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. ” 1 Corinthians 15:50 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.15.50.NASB1995 “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:4-10 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.3.4-10.NASB1995 “For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. ” Romans 7:18 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.7.18.NASB1995 If there is any 'good' in me this must be Him. I am justified by his shed blood. I love this illustration, it speaks to me what God has already accomplished for the world He loved. It is a mess this world. The world only needs Jesus! The world only needs to believe. We only need to believe in the shed blood of Christ for forgiveness of sin (without it we are all lost). There's so much more to the free gift of salvation, eternal life. Jesus is the Life<<< (John 14:6). Attached File “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.” 1 Peter 1:2 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1pe.1.2.NASB1995 |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Yes, sir. Love is the greatest! This Love manifests (is revealed) in our obedience to Christ's commandments and the good works (we were made for these) will follow salvation because you will walk in them. What I mean by, 'faith we participate'. I'm talking about the Life of Christ in us. When I wake up He is there, when I lie down He is there. We participate daily by taking up our cross (denying self) and following Him. Jesus is the Life... (Jn. 14:6). When we participate we are by faith walking in the Spirit. It is a moment by moment communion/ fellowship with God and His people. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. That's us walking it out with Him daily. He is Faithful. Do we acknowledge His presence in our every day? “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” 1 Corinthians 1:9 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1co.1.9.NASB1995 “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” 2 Corinthians 13:14 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/2co.13.14.NASB1995 Holy sacraments in themselves (do not save) it is the Life of Christ that saves. 'Christ in you, the hope of glory' You must be born again (born from above) to see the Kingdom of God. How do we receive anything from God? I do not believe the RCC has a monopoly on the things of God. God is the only Sovereign, every born again believer and follower of the Lord Christ Jesus is the ekklēsia (assembly, called out, people of God). Jesus is the head of the body, the church. Jesus He is the baptizer in/ with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus's death, burial and resurrection (see the message of the cross). Trust in Him. Whoever believes in Him has eternal life. Believe on Him and you will be saved. He gives us new Life. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/eph.2.8-10.NASB1995 We are justified by faith in His blood. He has given us His Life. “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. ” Romans 5:9 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.9.NASB1995 “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” Romans 5:8-11 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.5.8-11.NASB1995 “Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.” Galatians 5:24-26 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.5.24-26.NASB1995 Walk with/ follow Jesus today. Surrender to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. I have been saved by the living and enduring Word of God, and that same Word is still at work saving and transforming me today. The Holy Spirit is our witness. “Surely goodness and lovingkindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.” Psalms 23:6 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.23.6.NASB1995 “The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ” Romans 8:16 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.8.16.NASB1995 Do you have the inner witness in your spirit that Jesus is Lord? God loves you, God bless you. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Have a blessed and wonderful day in the Lord. ^^^This is True. We, by faith believe GOD, His WORD the good shepherd. Meditate on this. JESUS is the door, the good shepherd, and so much more to rest in. If a man can not have assurance by faith, then how miserable that must and will be. John 10:14-18. verse 14.) I Am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:25-30. verses 29-30) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are One. |
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Originally Posted By lygxis: It's not. Yes, I am being pretty specific here in treating OSAS as a placeholder for "you made your decision, now you can live any way you like" - which I reject. In my constant experience, that's what people think when you say once saved, always saved. If you'd have said "once saved, always perservering" I'd not have needed to say anything. Do people mean other things when they say it? Yes. Originally Posted By lygxis: It's not. Yes, I am being pretty specific here in treating OSAS as a placeholder for "you made your decision, now you can live any way you like" - which I reject. In my constant experience, that's what people think when you say once saved, always saved. If you'd have said "once saved, always perservering" I'd not have needed to say anything. Do people mean other things when they say it? Yes. "Perseverance of the saints" is just once saved always saved with the ridiculous ability to retcon someone's life to say they were never really believers in the first place if they sin too much. Now if we're talking Calvinism, what is really messed up is that they believe God made that guy falsely believe he was saved only for God to shatter his faith later on according to God's plan somehow. This is all rather nonsensical and unbiblical anyway. "Without the new nature it is impossible to believe in the gospel." That was your key. The gift of a new nature is not prevenient grace, and it's not given to everyone. Plus, note that I didn't put baptism in there either. It's definitely not the roman catholic teaching on that part of salvation. "The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God's grace." -JDDJ "4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification" And as far as baptism being a part of salvation...well if you disagree with that, on one side you have yourself and a handful of evangelicals on the other side you have scriptural understanding throughout Church history, apostolic teaching, and nearly every Christian on the planet. I didn't take it as an insult, I'm just used to that happening very quickly, especially online. As for the CCC, I actually double-checked it and the vatican website before I posted in reply to you in the first place. I won't say I've studied them at depth in the past but I have read in them. It's not possible for me to know what it is you think I'm not grasping about RCC teaching on justification, I have to have a nail to hang my hat on there. See below. I said I wasn't sure if it was a dichotomy because it may disagree in more ways than just one - I meant that I didn't know if dichotomy was enough to meaningfully say how they disagree. Dichotomy is a setting up of two options or opposing positions. You did this when you set up justification as a "protestant v. rcc." It's a false dichotomy though, as I've pointed out. Especially when you expand the topic to baptism...which now shifts the "dichotomy" you've set up to "a hand full of small sects v. all apostolic churches." Biblically, if you are not christ's sheep, you cannot hear him, and you cannot be saved - there is no prevenient grace - those who are saved (some of the way it works I mentioned above) are given a new nature and because they have that new nature they will not want and cannot want to reject the Gospel (because their new nature desires to accept it - it's not programming, its literally them). That's what's meant when it's said that this particular grace is irresistible. I'm sorry, it is programing. But thankfully it is also untrue and unbiblical, so it doesn't actually exist. Then they repent (realize their lives have been wrong and they reject their behavior and such as wrong) and accept that Christ died for them. At that point they are as justified with God as they ever can be and NO part of their behavior after that plays any part in their justification. BECAUSE they are a new creature they will have a lifelong struggle to fight sin. You struggle against sin not to make yourself right with God (you can't, he couldn't accept what is not wholly righteous as righteous) but because you're a new creature (see paul's struggle in romans 7 - that's about christians). What makes you justified (set right with God) is christ's life and works and perfect law keeping being applied to you when you repent of your sins and believe he died for your sins. The very ability to believe he did is a gift, given in a way such that you can't even boast about it being you that made yourself able to believe it. Once that is applied to you, your justification is fully done, that's it, nothing else required to make you justified or keep you justified. The gift of salvation covers all past, present, and future sins of the believer. Man, there's that once saved, always saved stuff again. Or whatever Calvin wanted to call his novel twist. You struggle not because you do it to be justified, or keep your justification, you struggle against sin because you have the new nature, which was required to even believe in the gospel in the first place. Nothing we do prior to justification merits anything including the justification itself. I wouldn't know how many that claim to be christians that beleive in prevenient grace, the person with a heart set on the flesh (romans 8:7-8) cooperates with that grace ... and that justification (being made right with God) is conferred in the act of baptism. Your quote from Trent got cut off. "in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God." Nothing you can do can merit Christ's gift of grace. You can however reject it. Irresistible grace is not Christianity, historically or scripturally. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: Nothing you can do can merit Christ's gift of grace. You can however reject it. Irresistible grace is not Christianity, historically or scripturally. This is what my priest said to us in catechism. He also said repentance isn't monergistic. |
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Originally Posted By brianm: "Perseverance of the saints" is just once saved always saved with the ridiculous ability to retcon someone's life to say they were never really believers in the first place if they sin too much. Now if we're talking Calvinism, what is really messed up is that they believe God made that guy falsely believe he was saved only for God to shatter his faith later on according to God's plan somehow. This is all rather nonsensical and unbiblical anyway. Originally Posted By brianm: "Perseverance of the saints" is just once saved always saved with the ridiculous ability to retcon someone's life to say they were never really believers in the first place if they sin too much. Now if we're talking Calvinism, what is really messed up is that they believe God made that guy falsely believe he was saved only for God to shatter his faith later on according to God's plan somehow. This is all rather nonsensical and unbiblical anyway. I know what I meant when I posted "perserverance of the saints" and it is not what you just posted. Your instinct here is doing you a disservice. You're chasing off down rabbit trails away from what I'm posting and if you really want to know where I am on those things ... ask? Perserverance of the saints is (I have been repeatedly posting this) that because you are a new creature, born again by the spirit before you believe, you will behave according to your new nature. That means you struggle against sin in this life, throught your life. Regarding your comment about saying someone is or is not a christian - john's epistles are there and say what they say. We are not God and thus we can't know (in the same way God knows) who is saved, so we are given evidences that we can examine to measure ourselves and others. The fact that we make mistakes using them does not mean the list of evidences are wrong. Originally Posted By brianm: "The freedom they possess in relation to persons and the things of this world is no freedom in relation to salvation, for as sinners they stand under God's judgment and are incapable of turning by themselves to God to seek deliverance, of meriting their justification before God, or of attaining salvation by their own abilities. Justification takes place solely by God's grace." -JDDJ "4.1 Human Powerlessness and Sin in Relation to Justification" And as far as baptism being a part of salvation...well if you disagree with that, on one side you have yourself and a handful of evangelicals on the other side you have scriptural understanding throughout Church history, apostolic teaching, and nearly every Christian on the planet. Yes, I get why in isolation you could take it that way. What came after shows that that isn't what I meant by that part of justification. We agree that grace is necessary. I believe that not everyone gets that - only those who beleive have gotten it, and not anybody else. Regarding baptism's necessity to be saved (justified before God) - I am content to stand with the biblical text. The theif on the cross was not baptised and was saved. Originally Posted By brianm: I'm sorry, it is programing. But thankfully it is also untrue and unbiblical, so it doesn't actually exist. If it's really programming and not the person themselves changing such that they want it themselves, you can actually demonstrate it from the text or with your own words. Beyond that, how is "your desires are changed by the changing of your nature" making a person do something they (based on their nature) do not want to do? There's a certain irony in being against the idea that God, who can't do anything wrong, would change someone's desires so that they want what's best for them. If we try and ram a wedge saying that a person's nature is not a part of that person and is some outside acting force on them ... that way, insanity lies. Also, you might want to be careful when you go that route, because it seems that we both think grace is necessary, meaning you're just as open to being told that those without grace are programmed to be unsaved, against their will. The opposite side of coin regarding who gets saved or not would seem to either fall into molinism's counterfactuals trap, where the person is at the mercy of whatever defines the counterfactuals 'god' is forced to comply with, or the thomist effacacious infallible grace that's somehow also (mystery handwavium) not effacacious and infallible at determining who will or won't choose salvation. Originally Posted By brianm: Man, there's that once saved, always saved stuff again. Or whatever Calvin wanted to call his novel twist. Nothing we do prior to justification merits anything including the justification itself. ... and now you know (or reasonably should know) why I was specific regarding OSAS - to rejection the decisional nonsense idea wher you say some words, get dunked or sprinkled, and live like the devil thereafter. That's not what I believe. Such a person has zero reason to believe they ever believed the Gospel in the first place. A great many of us have been fighting that stuff for millenia. On the prior bit - I wasn't speaking about works/behavior before justification. Originally Posted By brianm: Your quote from Trent got cut off. "in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight. Whence, when it is said in the sacred writings: Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you, we are admonished of our liberty; and when we answer; Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted, we confess that we are prevented by the grace of God." Nothing you can do can merit Christ's gift of grace. You can however reject it. Irresistible grace is not Christianity, historically or scripturally. I narrowed it to that bit to show that that was what I was referring to by the phrase "prevenient grace." A necessary but not sufficient grace given to everyone living equally that cannot determine who will or will not accept salvation. Note that what I am saying is irresistible grace is that people's natures are changed, and that their nature is part of them, such that THEY themselves (not some outside force working on them) desire salvation. If you're going to reject it, at least reject what I actually believe. |
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Many of the arguments fought over back and forth in this thread are above my head. But one thing I have been taught is God wants to save everyone. One of my favorite priests has told multiple stories about being called for Last Rights for "former" Catholics who fell away as adults. I've noticed three common themes. The first is they didn't call for a Priest. To them it is a surprise visit. Sometimes a care worker makes the call without even asking, someone who is not even Catholic. So the dying person did not take the first step, someone else did for them. Sometimes it is not until the end of the visit that they and the Priest finds out about this. The second is he asks if they want to go to Confession, they agree, and they start with, "It's been 25 years since my last Confession," or "40 years," or whatever large number of years you can possibly imagine. It keeps happening. They fell away from believing in God for decades, didn't make the call for a Priest or know he was going to visit, and yet they say yes to Confession in an instant. The third is that when they were a child they were devoted in prayer to Jesus in some way, such as The Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion. So in their last few days of life Jesus calls them back to him. Jesus does not want to lose them. They spent their entire adult life away from anything to do with prayer or believing in God yet are called back by Jesus while they still have a chance to repent of their sins. I don't know how this fits in with all the back and forth arguments over the fine points of salvation, but I do know that God wants to save everyone, and these stories show he calls out to those who have fallen away from him when they are alone and within a few days death. Maybe there was a fourth theme as well. These people were often alone when they were dying, with no family nearby. |
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Originally Posted By TangoFoxtrot: Many of the arguments fought over back and forth in this thread are above my head. But one thing I have been taught is God wants to save everyone. One of my favorite priests has told multiple stories about being called for Last Rights for "former" Catholics who fell away as adults. I've noticed three common themes. The first is they didn't call for a Priest. To them it is a surprise visit. Sometimes a care worker makes the call without even asking, someone who is not even Catholic. So the dying person did not take the first step, someone else did for them. Sometimes it is not until the end of the visit that they and the Priest finds out about this. The second is he asks if they want to go to Confession, they agree, and they start with, "It's been 25 years since my last Confession," or "40 years," or whatever large number of years you can possibly imagine. It keeps happening. They fell away from believing in God for decades, didn't make the call for a Priest or know he was going to visit, and yet they say yes to Confession in an instant. The third is that when they were a child they were devoted in prayer to Jesus in some way, such as The Sacred Heart of Jesus devotion. So in their last few days of life Jesus calls them back to him. Jesus does not want to lose them. They spent their entire adult life away from anything to do with prayer or believing in God yet are called back by Jesus while they still have a chance to repent of their sins. I don't know how this fits in with all the back and forth arguments over the fine points of salvation, but I do know that God wants to save everyone, and these stories show he calls out to those who have fallen away from him when they are alone and within a few days death. Maybe there was a fourth theme as well. These people were often alone when they were dying, with no family nearby. Your priest going to give a person 'last rites' is an loving, caring and empathetic gesture. Praying for and anointing the sick and dying is Scriptural. Love is the greatest! Being a 'Catholic' isn't what saves a man. It is true, God is merciful to sinners, God is love. Remember, there were two other 'crosses' on that day. All those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. The RCC has no say so in these matters. Jesus saves. “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/2pe.3.9.NASB1995 ~ Peter the Lord's Apostle “First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ” 1 Timothy 2:1-5 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1ti.2.1-5.NASB1995 ~ Paul the Lord's Apostle The gospel message must be preached to the world. The power of God is in the message of the cross to them that believe. I called on the name of the Lord, He came to my rescue (saved me). The Holy Spirit is my witness. We can all recieve God's grace. His salvation is a free gift. How do you recieve anything from God? There is more! So much more! “For to me, to live is Christ [He is my source of joy, my reason to live] and to die is gain [for I will be with Him in eternity]. ” Philippians 1:21 AMP https://bible.com/bible/1588/php.1.21.AMP God isn't looking for good religious people. He's looking for the blood; the mercy seat. <<< Has the blood been applied??? Being a catholic, a protestant or claiming any other religious title personally hasn't anything to do with your salvation. Jesus *He isn't on that cross any longer. He is returning. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. “ “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.” Revelation 22:12, 20 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rev.22.12-20.NASB1995 Maranatha |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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I appreciate this forum because of the good conversations. Talking about the good things of God. Because, He is good. I am greatful for you. God bless you. “Oh give thanks to the LORD, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.” Psalms 107:1 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/psa.107.1.NASB1995 On my way to work this morning I was meditating on the Scriptures; the just shall live by his faith: ““Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.” Habakkuk 2:4 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/hab.2.4.NASB1995 “Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:28-29 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/1jn.2.28-29.NASB1995 You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. |
USMC 85-'93 Amphibious YAT-YAS
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: I could see that in my case. Originally Posted By 11boomboom: Originally Posted By Kalahnikid: Originally Posted By wswartzendruber: I'm pretty sure plenty from both sides will be told "Well done, good and faithful servant." And I'm reasonably sure plenty from both sides also won't. I'm hoping for at least what I heard from most of my teachers: "Well, I guess you tried..." I could see that in my case. That was my last trip to confession. "Praise God that you're here, and that you realize you need to be here. He knows you're trying, and you being here is evidence to that." Um, sounds good to me.
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| One of the most entertaining things about many of these threads is that regardless of the topics, debates begin about beliefs that have not much to do with the original topics. The discussions become wide ranging in a "migration of the Celts across Europe" sort of way and end up somewhere unintended. Occasionally I keep reading through them, but there are times when the discussion becomes a lot like some of the disagreements with my wife - the original topic is long forgotten and we end up elsewhere. |
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Originally Posted By Bishop3: Being a 'Catholic' isn't what saves a man. It is true, God is merciful to sinners, God is love. Remember, there were two other 'crosses' on that day. All those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. The RCC has no say so in these matters. Jesus saves. Being a catholic, a protestant or claiming any other religious title personally hasn't anything to do with your salvation. Jesus *He isn't on that cross any longer. He is returning. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. I don't understand why removing his places of learning is such a high priority for you. It is a major point in many of your posts. |