[ARCHIVED THREAD] - So do Tarriffs really work? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/6/2017 2:37:33 PM EDT
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India thinks so and it looks like Apple dropped their prices to compensate...so much for the theory it will cost consumers more.
India working to force local production |
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The tariffs didn't cause the price reduction, Apple reduced the price in spite of the tariffs. They've apparently decided the reduced margin is still profitable.
For an item that was already operating at low margins this might make it vanish from market entirely, or the company would have to raise the price to compensate. |
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yes they work. They're the only reason we even have an american motorcycle industry. No one thought they were bad until Reagan was paid by companies to convince all those that are constantly suckling on his dick they were bad. There have been proponents and detractors of tariffs going back centuries, even in this country. Ever read the federalist papers? |
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Yes, if you understand why a government imposes a tariff.
Plain and simple. 1.) Discourage import of said good or material. 2.) Encourage more domestic production of said good or material. Then, there's most ARFcommer's but hurt..., "Muh cheap chit from China is gonna cost more money!" Bottom line is: If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. |
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Yes, if you understand why a government imposes a tariff. Plain and simple. 1.) Discourage import of said good or material. 2.) Encourage more domestic production of said good or material. Then, there's most ARFcommer's but hurt..., "Muh cheap chit from China is gonna cost more money!" Bottom line is: If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. |
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So what you're saying is the American motorcycle industry needs government help to stay competitive? There have been proponents and detractors of tariffs going back centuries, even in this country. Ever read the federalist papers? |
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Yes and no, depends on the trade deficits between you and the nations you are slapping with the tarrif.
People like to cite Smoot Hawley as a terrible example of what a tarrif war can do. I say it is a terrible example, since we are In the exact opposite position! We are no longer a net exporter, but a net importer, a tarrif would keep more money circulating in the U.S. And would make our businesses more competitive with foreign competition. And if say China retaliates? They'll lose, they are the exporter. The saying, "the customer is always right", is true because they, we, can always shop somewhere else! Just like Canada did when we passed Smoot Hawley. (I just realized the last bit is the equivilant of saying "be more like Canada"  )
When you create a minimum wage law, you automatically create a trade imbalance with nations without such measures. You can either remove the wage laws, or create tariffs to counter those without such measures, otherwise you will export labor, money and businesses abroad to places that are harder to hold accountable. |
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That's funny, because to me you sound like one of those pro-labor union guys that wants to pay a dipshit with a GED $20 an hour to make paper plates because muh jerbs!!!!! Quoted:
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Yes, if you understand why a government imposes a tariff. Plain and simple. 1.) Discourage import of said good or material. 2.) Encourage more domestic production of said good or material. Then, there's most ARFcommer's but hurt..., "Muh cheap chit from China is gonna cost more money!" Bottom line is: If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. 
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India thinks so and it looks like Apple dropped their prices to compensate...so much for the theory it will cost consumers more. India working to force local production I'm not sure what you mean by do tariffs "work". The intent seems to be to protect locally made phones by making imported ones more expensive. If Apple reduced the prices of iPhones imported into India to keep them competitively priced with locally made phones, that would seem to indicate that the tariffs most certainly did not "work" so far as "work" means to achieve their objective of boosting domestic production and decreasing imports. |
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yes, I'm saying they needed the government to stay competitive against slave labor. We can either accept slave labor in america to compete with foreign industries, tariff those foreign goods, or accept a loss of American production capabilities. Of those options, tariffs are the only one that puts the interest of the American people first. There is one main reason slave labor is non existent in the U.S. and the rest of the 1st world: productivity. A free worker is many times more productive than any slave by every economic measurement, the most popular being GDP/hour worked. Feel free to google the statistics. If a slave working in a 3rd world shit hole is delivering results comparable to you, you should be unemployed. The true problem with most American industries that get off-shored is an artificial inflation of the cost of labor by way of our social welfare programs. Government interference is the problem. A tariff does not treat the problem, it merely treats a symptom of the problem. And what a horrible treatment it is. Big government stepping in to fix a problem created by big government. If a slave working in a 3rd world shithole is delivering results comparable to you because your government has made it outrageously expensive to employ you, the politicians representing you should be unemployed. Shrinking government and simultaneously reducing corporate tax rates and payroll taxes would actually help producers without fucking consumers. |
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Tariffs are for economically illiterate yards. Read Economics in One Lesson if you disagree. It explains why you're wrong. Because We have minimum wage laws and thanks to those, we will continue to have a trade imbalance with countries without. So which do you think is possible right now, remove the minimum wage, or patch trade imbalances with tariffs? |
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The tariffs didn't cause the price reduction, Apple reduced the price in spite of the tariffs. They've apparently decided the reduced margin is still profitable. For an item that was already operating at low margins this might make it vanish from market entirely, or the company would have to raise the price to compensate. |
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If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. If you have one gov't or two gov'ts imposing tariffs, the trade is less fair, not more fair. Fair trade only exists when party A and party B agree to a trade without gov't interference from one or both of their gov'ts. Words do have meanings. |
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Ahh, the old "can't compete with slave labor fallacy." There is one main reason slave labor is non existent in the U.S. and the rest of the 1st world: productivity. A free worker is many times more productive than any slave by every economic measurement, the most popular being GDP/hour worked. Feel free to google the statistics. If a slave working in a 3rd world shit hole is delivering results comparable to you, you should be unemployed. The true problem with most American industries that get off-shored is an artificial inflation of the cost of labor by way of our social welfare programs. Government interference is the problem. A tariff does not treat the problem, it merely treats a symptom of the problem. And what a horrible treatment it is. Big government stepping in to fix a problem created by big government. If a slave working in a 3rd world shithole is delivering results comparable to you because your government has made it outrageously expensive to employ you, the politicians representing you should be unemployed. Shrinking government and simultaneously reducing corporate tax rates and payroll taxes would actually help producers without fucking consumers. Ok we drop taxes, no payroll taxes or taxes of any sort. Now what? Oh the American workers still refuse to do anything for $3 a day because the cost of other goods are much higher than that? Wonder what that means. No way would that still just result in employing slave labor in other countries. Free trade only works with similar conditions. Government sponsored and controlled factories in communist nations are not similar conditions. The workers I was just working with over the first have of the year in egypt made 2200 egyptians pounds a month. This is $124. These were welders and equipment operators. We CAN drastically reduce our quality of life to try and compete, but you're a moron if you think that we could just magically make massive deflation of our currency happen by dropping taxes. |
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The underlying question needs to be more specific. OP needs to specify what it is that he thinks tariffs should do, or are intended to do.
-lower consumer prices? -reduce trade deficit? -protect local producers? -prop up crappier local competing products? -force consumers to buy locally produced items, even if cheaper, higher quality products can be imported? |
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Ahh, the old "can't compete with slave labor fallacy." There is one main reason slave labor is non existent in the U.S. and the rest of the 1st world: productivity. A free worker is many times more productive than any slave by every economic measurement, the most popular being GDP/hour worked. Feel free to google the statistics. If a slave working in a 3rd world shit hole is delivering results comparable to you, you should be unemployed. The true problem with most American industries that get off-shored is an artificial inflation of the cost of labor by way of our social welfare programs. Government interference is the problem. A tariff does not treat the problem, it merely treats a symptom of the problem. And what a horrible treatment it is. Big government stepping in to fix a problem created by big government. If a slave working in a 3rd world shithole is delivering results comparable to you because your government has made it outrageously expensive to employ you, the politicians representing you should be unemployed. Shrinking government and simultaneously reducing corporate tax rates and payroll taxes would actually help producers without fucking consumers. Honesty (which your work ethic is based upon) and our legal system would be the two largest contributors to our productivity. The fact John Doe can be trusted more often than Pedro, and if Mr Doe screwed you, you're more likely to succeed in court here, then most places abroad. These are I would say the two largest reasons behind American productivity, while the prohibition on slavery has a lot less of an effect than either of those two factors, plus we still have some forms of slavery with illegal immigrants. |
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No, to be fair, trade has to be free. If you have one gov't or two gov'ts imposing tariffs, the trade is less fair, not more fair. Fair trade only exists when party A and party B agree to a trade without gov't interference from one or both of their gov'ts. Words do have meanings. |
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We can't build iPhones here because factories can't dump their chemicals in the stream, force workers to live on site, work 16 hours days and when they start killing themselves put up suicide prevention nets. Almost forgot currency manipulation, IP theft, outright extortion etc.
Free trade only works when the playing field is level. |
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So you're opting for option 1. Roger that. What ever happened to critical thinking? Ok we drop taxes, no payroll taxes or taxes of any sort. Now what? Oh the American workers still refuse to do anything for $3 a day because the cost of other goods are much higher than that? Wonder what that means. No way would that still just result in employing slave labor in other countries. Free trade only works with similar conditions. Government sponsored and controlled factories in communist nations are not similar conditions. The workers I was just working with over the first have of the year in egypt made 2200 egyptians pounds a month. This is $124. These were welders and equipment operators. We CAN drastically reduce our quality of life to try and compete, but you're a moron if you think that we could just magically make massive deflation of our currency happen by dropping taxes. Average U.S. worker productivity: $67.33 per hour Average Mexican worker productivity: $16.23 per hour. I don't have Egyptian data but I doubt they are more productive that Mexicans. So, using basic math skills, we find that the average U.S. worker produces 4.14 times more per hour worked than the average Mexican worker. Holy shit, that's a lot more! So why in the blue fuck would we send a job to Mexico???? Because the fucking cost of production is higher!!!!! HOLY SHIT, WHY IS THAT? Cost of Labor + Cost of Materials + Overhead cost = Total Cost of Production. Obviously the cost of materials will probably remain unchanged, so it looks like the cost of labor is primary villain here! What goes into the cost of labor here in the U.S.? Wages, social security taxes, medicare taxes, medicaid, state unemployment taxes, etc... Surprise! Mexico doesn't have that shit!!!!! So lets look at wage numbers: Average U.S. Wage: $56,516.00/year OR $27.17/hour Average Mexican Wage: $12,850.00/year OR $6.18/hour So going off just wages, the average U.S. worker costs 4.39x more per hour. HOLY FUCK THATS ALMOST DIRECTLY IN LINE WITH PRODUCTIVITY NUMBERS!!!!!!!! (I used wage numbers from 2015 and productivity numbers from 2013, so its probably closer since productivity has grown) So what could possibly fuck us over so much to cause corporations to send jobs down to buttfucking Mexico? THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT AND THE FREE SHIT ARMY!!!!!!!!!! For America Corp. to employ John Doe USA they have to pay 27.17 an hour, plus medicare, plus medicaid, plus unemployment insurance, plus Obamacare taxes, ad infinitum (not really) on top of every other fucking tax on their profit. So because of all that shit, John Doe costs more like $35 or $40/hour or more to employ and his ability to complete is fucking sabotaged by the idiot in D.C. claiming to be looking out for him. |
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The ban on slavery is a small part of the reason behind America's higher rate of productivity. Honesty (which your work ethic is based upon) and our legal system would be the two largest contributors to our productivity. The fact John Doe can be trusted more often than Pedro, and if Mr Doe screwed you, you're more likely to succeed in court here, then most places abroad. These are I would say the two largest reasons behind American productivity, while the prohibition on slavery has a lot less of an effect than either of those two factors, plus we still have some forms of slavery with illegal immigrants. |
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Lol, you didn't even address my arguments pertaining to productivity. American workers are more expensive per hour BECAUSE THEY PRODUCE MORE PER HOUR. Here is a comparison with productivity numbers pulled from 2013: Average U.S. worker productivity: $67.33 per hour Average Mexican worker productivity: $16.23 per hour. I don't have Egyptian data but I doubt they are more productive that Mexicans. So, using basic math skills, we find that the average U.S. worker produces 4.14 times more per hour worked than the average Mexican worker. Holy shit, that's a lot more! So why in the blue fuck would we send a job to Mexico???? Because the fucking cost of production is higher!!!!! HOLY SHIT, WHY IS THAT? Cost of Labor + Cost of Materials + Overhead cost = Total Cost of Production. Obviously the cost of materials will probably remain unchanged, so it looks like the cost of labor is primary villain here! What goes into the cost of labor here in the U.S.? Wages, social security taxes, medicare taxes, medicaid, state unemployment taxes, etc... Surprise! Mexico doesn't have that shit!!!!! So lets look at wage numbers: Average U.S. Wage: $56,516.00/year OR $27.17/hour Average Mexican Wage: $12,850.00/year OR $6.18/hour So going off just wages, the average U.S. worker costs 4.39x more per hour. HOLY FUCK THATS ALMOST DIRECTLY IN LINE WITH PRODUCTIVITY NUMBERS!!!!!!!! (I used wage numbers from 2015 and productivity numbers from 2013, so its probably closer since productivity has grown) So what could possibly fuck us over so much to cause corporations to send jobs down to buttfucking Mexico? THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT AND THE FREE SHIT ARMY!!!!!!!!!! For America Corp. to employ John Doe USA they have to pay 27.17 an hour, plus medicare, plus medicaid, plus unemployment insurance, plus Obamacare taxes, ad infinitum (not really) on top of every other fucking tax on their profit. So because of all that shit, John Doe costs more like $35 or $40/hour or more to employ and totally his ability to complete is fucking sabotaged by the idiot in D.C. claiming to be looking out for him. |
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I didn't address it because your entire premise is based on GDP. GDP is inflated by minimum wage laws. Remove minimum wage laws (which you are claiming is big government) and the GDP will decrease. So using a number from the current scenario in your imaginary utopia isn't applicable.  Ok dude. Good talk. Keep on fighting big .gov with more big .gov. You should look up where the tax... errr tariff money goes. It isn't back into your pocket.
The funnier thing about GD is that on the subject of economics, a lot of posters have more in common with Bernie fucking Sanders than anyone they actually vote for but they don't even realize it. |
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Ok dude. Good talk. Keep on fighting big .gov with more big .gov. You should look up where the tax... errr tariff money goes. It isn't back into your pocket.
The funnier thing about GD is that on the subject of economics, a lot of posters have more in common with Bernie fucking Sanders than anyone they actually vote for but they don't even realize it. |
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How about a rebuttal when you run out of one liners you were fed, instead of insults? I confronted you with numbers and logic, you rejected them. Congratulations, you and Bernie Sanders are in agreement. |
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Slavery was on the way out before the ban. A free worker is more productive than a slave every day of the fucking week by EVERY economic measurement. |
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I won't argue whether slavery is/was more or less productive than free labor in every case. But I will note that slavery was going strong in parts of the U.S. at the start of the Civil War and the resulting military and political disruption of the institution. |
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Tariffs are for economically illiterate tards. Read Economics in One Lesson if you disagree. It explains why you're wrong. |
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Since you're so economically literate, why don't you explain what happens when everyone else tariffs your exports 20-200%, and you don't tariff imports from them? |
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Because your entire argument essentially boils down to "Without government intervention, the American worker can't compete with 3rd world slaves and all jobs will go overseas" and that argument has no basis in reality, no numbers or logic to back it up, and is altogether retarded and based on ignorance. I confronted you with numbers and logic, you rejected them. Congratulations, you and Bernie Sanders are in agreement. American workers are 400% more productive based on GDP? Well lets ignore that that is the average GPD based across every industry, and inflated by the minimum wage, and pretend it's even relevant in application to just manufacturing data (Yes this is everything wrong with your "numbers"). So that means that right now things are already 4 times cheaper to do in mexico, a country with a higher per capita GDP than china (our largest trading partner), in order for those countries to have been motivated to move there. So you are proposing that just removing a few taxes will reduce cost here that much? No, what you are actually proposing would require a drastic decrease in american incomes. You can't have it both ways. You can't use current landscape GDP data and project those incomes on a restrictionless market. That is nothing more than masturbatory musings. |
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So, why do we trade with countries?
Comparative advantage, we make good big machinery and trucks, countries like China and Vietnam make good trinkets. We buy trinkets from them, they buy trucks and heavy machinery from us. But wait, they tariff our trucks and heavy machinery 150%, so we buy their trinkets, and they don't buy our heavy machinery and trucks. It's a one way street where we just send money to them and get nothing out of it. |
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Lol. I confronted you with the current economic landscape we have seen since easing tariffs. You presented me with a libertarian jerk off dream about a completing governmentless economy while utilizing inflated GDP data. You have nothing to go by but one liners and no reasoning to back them up. American workers are 400% more productive based on GDP? Well lets ignore that that is the average GPD based across every industry, and inflated by the minimum wage, and pretend it's even relevant in application to just manufacturing data (Yes this is everything wrong with your "numbers"). So that means that right now things are already 4 times cheaper to do in mexico, a country with a higher per capita GDP than china (our largest trading partner), in order for those countries to have been motivated to move there. So you are proposing that just removing a few taxes will reduce cost here that much? No, what you are actually proposing would require a drastic decrease in american incomes. You can't have it both ways. You can't use current landscape GDP data and project those incomes on a restrictionless market. That is nothing more than masturbatory musings. Here is my entire argument broken down Barney-style: Reducing the tax burden on corporations and individuals, drastically scaling back social welfare programs, and reducing government spending across the board would increase the ability of the American worker to compete internationally and make tariffs unnecessary. Get real, you're arguing for higher taxes and more government and you don't even realize it! Do you work in the government sector?
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So, why do we trade with countries? Comparative advantage, we make good big machinery and trucks, countries like China and Vietnam make good trinkets. We buy trinkets from them, they buy trucks and heavy machinery from us. But wait, they tariff our trucks and heavy machinery 150%, so we buy their trinkets, and they don't buy our heavy machinery and trucks. It's a one way street where we just send money to them and get nothing out of it. 
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Now you're just making stuff up. Reducing payroll taxes and corporate income taxes is a libertarian jerk off dream? Here is my entire argument broken down Barney-style: Reducing the tax burden on corporations and individuals, drastically scaling back social welfare programs, and reducing government spending across the board would increase the ability of the American worker to compete internationally and make tariffs unnecessary. Get real, you're arguing for higher taxes and more government and you don't even realize it! Do you work in the government sector?Quoted:
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Lol. I confronted you with the current economic landscape we have seen since easing tariffs. You presented me with a libertarian jerk off dream about a completing governmentless economy while utilizing inflated GDP data. You have nothing to go by but one liners and no reasoning to back them up. American workers are 400% more productive based on GDP? Well lets ignore that that is the average GPD based across every industry, and inflated by the minimum wage, and pretend it's even relevant in application to just manufacturing data (Yes this is everything wrong with your "numbers"). So that means that right now things are already 4 times cheaper to do in mexico, a country with a higher per capita GDP than china (our largest trading partner), in order for those countries to have been motivated to move there. So you are proposing that just removing a few taxes will reduce cost here that much? No, what you are actually proposing would require a drastic decrease in american incomes. You can't have it both ways. You can't use current landscape GDP data and project those incomes on a restrictionless market. That is nothing more than masturbatory musings. Here is my entire argument broken down Barney-style: Reducing the tax burden on corporations and individuals, drastically scaling back social welfare programs, and reducing government spending across the board would increase the ability of the American worker to compete internationally and make tariffs unnecessary. Get real, you're arguing for higher taxes and more government and you don't even realize it! Do you work in the government sector?Remember Greenspan was the one that said the US worker especially the highly skilled workers were going to have to accept a lower standard of living in the future. Other countries are protecting their markets we seem to be the only ones stupid enough not to do the same. Then there is the issue concerning the loss of IP in other countries such as India and china, where we're required to share our IP with them in order to sell into or manufacture there. Ignoring the outright theft and rippoffs. We also wholesale support the Indian IT industry with H1B visas and other outsourcing schemes that help train our competition and drain jobs away from our supposed service economy. The rules should be simple you want access to our markets open yours. Unfortunately we have a gov't actively working against the best interest of it's citizens. Like it or not the US gov't is authorized to issue tariffs and I'd rather see the gov't funded that way in place of an income tax. Every other country has a VAT tax, which is essentially a back door tariff on imported goods, it's time we played the game on a level playing field. |
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Yes, if you understand why a government imposes a tariff. Plain and simple. 1.) Discourage import of said good or material. 2.) Encourage more domestic production of said good or material. Then, there's most ARFcommer's but hurt..., "Muh cheap chit from China is gonna cost more money!" Bottom line is: If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. |
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It depends on the product, the country enacting the tariff, and the people of said country. The countries with the highest tariffs tend to be poor as fuck or tiny, insignificant island nations. |
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They work great for causing massive economic depressions... just ask Hawley and Smoot. Fact is the economy was contracting before hand, so it really didn't matter. Tariffs could have been 0 or a 1000% there was little to no demand for the goods. Factor in bank failures and adherence to the gold standard it's hard to lay the blame solely at the feet of some increased tariffs. |
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India thinks so and it looks like Apple dropped their prices to compensate...so much for the theory it will cost consumers more. India working to force local production Depends. Globalists and economists with a globalist bent say no, when done correctly or examined with a nationalist eye, yes. |
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Yes, if you understand why a government imposes a tariff. Plain and simple. 1.) Discourage import of said good or material. 2.) Encourage more domestic production of said good or material. Then, there's most ARFcommer's but hurt..., "Muh cheap chit from China is gonna cost more money!" Bottom line is: If a country imposes a tariff or VAT on our exports, fuck them. Impose the same on them. Sounds like fair trade to me. I keed. Sorta. |
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yes, I'm saying they needed the government to stay competitive against slave labor. We can either accept slave labor in america to compete with foreign industries, tariff those foreign goods, or accept a loss of American production capabilities. Of those options, tariffs are the only one that puts the interest of the American people first. You're talking about motorcycles, not fighter jets or submarines. It's not a critical production capability. The interests of the american people are also served by lower priced goods (e.g. motorcycles) unless you believe that inflationary pressure is good for our interests. |