Trane also uses a lot of proprietary parts. Carrier/ Bryant use standardized parts except for the communicating controls in the high end units.
We have have far fewer warranty issues with Bryant than with Trane/ American Standard. Last year we logged an 70% warranty failure rate for Trade/American Standard in their first 2 years.
That is a ridiculously high failure rate. Trane had 6 times as many compressor failures as all other brands we installed COMBINED. Every one of the Trane compressor failures were in packaged units built and sealed by the factory. Every one was a mechanical failure, either they locked up or they sounded like someone inside banging away with a sledge hammer. Horrible quality control. The local Trane distributor has seen a huge turn-over of contractors. This past summer not one single contractor ran a Trane ad on TV or in the major newspapers. Many long time contractors in the Phoenix area switched brands due to the excessive number of warranty problems. When questioned by a customer, my Trane sales rep told him that "well, the desert is a severe climate and very hard on the equipment..." Customer, "Really? then why is Trane selling equipment in Az?" The rep didn't have an answer to that.
Many Trane units are now made in China.

Depends.....
Manual J calculations are for the whole building envelope. It is then broken down by zones. The full answer to your question depends on many factors including what region, building construction (wall construction, number of windows, etc.), use of rooms (closets need less air and kitchens need more). Zone systems with active dampers can reduce the total required Btu's by as much as 20%. A manual J can be as simple or complicated as you want based upon those answers.

The most misunderstood part of the manual J is that you have to know the target temperature. Does the consumer want the house 80˚ in the summer or 72˚ in the summer? That's a 25% difference in load. For northern climates, the same question for the winter. I see many competitors fail to ask the consumer what their target temperature is and just size the equipment based upon averages. In that case, why even bother with a manual J?

Most HVAC "experts" don't understand duct design, air flow, and building envelopes. They are repairmen and technicians. You should always have a BPI certified building analyst look at your home. If building a home, NEVER trust an architect or mechanical engineer. Always consult a building analyst. We see ME's using the same old wrong info as the HVAC technicians all the time. New construction codes are a total game changer in our industry.

Anyone know if there's known Trane coil issues? Specifically for the TAM9?

I just had an entire system installed not even 6 months ago, and Friday the coil blew. Refrigerant / oil cloud throughout the house...

Apparently the dealer can't get a replacement until tomorrow when the distributor opens, but I find it odd that a 6 month old coil would fail like that and so badly.

Not yet, as the service guys aren't coming out until tomorrow since the distributor was closed all weekend.

Definitely will once they get it out.

Yeah, I'd like to see it. Either a joint blew or the TXV did.

Trane has some new robots to solder coil U bends in place as the people were not soldering them properly. but all manufactures are having a much higher failure rate on R410 coils

I we seen some coils fail on start up.

lennox. carrier, rheem, goodman are all having issues. one theory is China is up to something in the raw materials that go into machines

Yea they cheap out or substitute. There is a reason you can't use Chinese materials in planes and other sensitive parts.

You'd think domestic companies would have metallurgists on staff (or other specialists) though to check that what they're being supplied is good.

I guess that's what we get being dependent on China now though - I've observed in the past 10 years that you really can't buy anything that's reliable anymore. Even well known and respected companies like Trane.

Good thing is the tech has the new coil and is on the way this afternoon. At least the temps are in the 70s and were 40s overnight.

There's a lot of out sourcing going on with manufacturers these days especially with sub assemblies.  My former company was outsourcing a major component, main contacts for electrical equipment, and we had metallurgy failures.  We were relying on the sub to QC things. I'm too far out of the loop to know for sure  but my guess is the sub just outsourced it to china.  The cost to inspect and retrofit several hundred units in the field will exceed the sale price of those units.  We had layoffs but the executives are still in place....go figure.

Nope, non heat pump, cooling only and aux heat wasn't on.

I was also worried about R410A all throughout the house as I didn't catch on for a couple hours and my daughter was sleeping at the time... hope there's no lasting effects from that but doubt it. When I was an auto tech I caught a bunch of 134a to the face once and I was a little loopy for a bit.

Welp, tech confirmed it - the coil definitely blew.

He said it was pretty bad as oil was all over it, but he's not sure where from as he's putting the new one in now.

Fluoro means fluorine is in the molecule.  It bonds pretty tightly which makes things, like Teflon, chemically inert, up until about 400-450°F.  Above those temps and it is time to get out of there asap.

Been watching this thread for a while. Rx'd quotes for several systems. Need a 4 ton and a 3 ton heat pump unit and air handler. Unfortunately--all electric. Quotes ranged from 30k to 18k. Those were for Trane and carrier units. Variable speed. Top of the line units. I would go for the VS Trane from my utility company at 18k from all the quotes.

My brother had an Amana unit installed by a licensed installer and recommended I get a quote from him. He quoted me ~10k for both units. 16 seer. Licensed and warranty. His argument was he would put the 16 seer units in his house b/c it's not worth the extra equipment cost. 8k seems like a long term payback for high efficiency equipment. Haven't asked what the VS Amana would cost yet.

Thoughts on quality? Savings? Live in coastal Maryland.

Thanks!

Agree, a good install with mid grade equipment always beats a lousy install with the best equipment you can buy.

You can make up ROI faster in a high use environment VS a low use environment.

I just went with a 13 SEER as my AC use is less then 1/3 a year and with NG prices being what they are, even a heat pump/AC isn't going to save me anything over a 96%+ NG 2 stage furnace with a ECM blower installed.

Nothing costs much to fix on the outside unit outside of the compressor [unless you get a ECM fan motor], every other part costs peanuts. The install work however, along with proper purging, can make a big difference in how long that compressor lasts. I got 32+ years out of my old one before the compressor [I suspect a valve took a shit] wouldn't make proper pressure splits between the high/low side. As it was a R-22 system anyways, it was time to move on. It was  a energy hog with a SEER of probably 7 or so. The lowest sold now is almost double that.

If I rememeber right R410a is out in 2030 now as well. Cali was trying to ban it sooner.

Just found this thread.  This is great stuff, thank you for your help.

I was wondering if I could get your input on my situation.

I have a house built in 1993, and am the 4th owner.  There was one owner for a year in the beginning, and one owner for 6 months before I bought it, but the bulk of the time in between was the same couple.  They spared no expense on anything in the house.  Overbuilt everything, never intending to leave it.  In the end their situation changed and they had to leave and moved a couple miles away.  By the time they'd left they'd replaced/updated everything in the house....except the HVAC, which are the original units, (one mfr'd in 1992 and one in 1993).  

The HVAC Guy they used was a friend, and apparently very good at his job because I've never heard of a system lasting 27 years.  I recently found out that the couple tried to replace the system a year before they sold it, but HVAC Friend told them they didn't need it and did some work on the existing system to keep it going.  I'm assuming most of the internal parts have been updated/replaced over the years, and I know they had it serviced regularly while they lived here and used the more expensive filters in the return.

Since I've owned it (bought in Spring 2017) I've had the upstairs unit recharged twice within 30 days of each other, the first time the guy just filled it an left without checking for leaks, the second time the tech located a small leak, fixed the leak and recharged it, and it's been fine since (this was summer 2017).  Both of those visits were covered by the home warranty that came with the house, and because they were within 30 days of each other covered under the same $100 service charge for the warranty company.  The downstairs unit has been problem free.

Now here's my dilemma:  I've been renewing my home warranty that came with the house when I bought (first time last summer 2018 and it's up for renewal again next month at $500 bucks a year), specifically to cover the HVAC replacement.  I figured at 24 years old the system was at most a couple years from death and the warranty would pay for itself with replacement costs even if I had to throw in a couple grand to upgrade the system.  Now that I'm up for a second renewal, and after reading your post, I'm doubtful the HVAC companies that the warranty company contracts with is going to do the best job, and I'm wondering if it's worth it to renew the warranty another year in case it fails or not.  I do notice that in the summer months the RH in the house tends to run higher, so I'm wondering if the system may be oversized (55-60% in the humid summer months with the temp set to 73-74).

Given the cost of a new system, am I crazy for keeping the warranty to help subsidize the cost at the risk of a cut rate HVAC company installing the replacement?

Would like some advice for HVAC on a new build.  2x6 exterior walls with 1" closed cell with remainder filled with batts.  Main level is 1,500 ft^2 and finished portion of the lower level is 330 ft^2.  the 'back'/north side is embedded in a hill with a back door.  The front will be a framed walk-out foundation and faces south.  The back half of the lower level is a utility room and there is an oversized 2 car garage in the lower level on the east side.  

The cost per btu in my area is about the same for propane as electric, the only two energy sources available.  

Can do about anything from a code perspective and I'd rather buy once and cry once.  

What are important to me is reliability and efficiency.

This is a second home for me on some land I own, I'm there most weekends and often during the week, but not full time.  

I've been given all kinds of recommendations:  geo-thermal, all electric, dual fuel [air heat pump w/ propane]......

Here is the floor plan:

Main level

Attached File


Lower level

Attached File



Thanks

As the owner of a residential HVAC company, I can assure you that any company consistently working with a home warranty company is not the company you want installing any system.  Home warranty companies almost never cover replacing equipment.  IF THEY COVER ANYTHING, they want it fixed, and they want it fixed as cheap as humanly possible.  Then they want the company to wait 30-90 days to get paid.  Most of the time they find a reason to not cover anything, or prorate the repair to a point that the homeowner is paying the vast majority of the cost.

Because of all these circumstances, most (if not all) reputable companies don't work with them.  It isn't worth the time and headache.  After working with several when my business first started, I would never recommend a home warranty with any company.  Maybe there are better ones out there, but I have never done business with one.

My suggestion would be duel fuel.  Being a second home you'll get no federal tax credit on Geo.  If you post your energy costs, I would be more specific as to which efficiency level makes the most sense.

Thanks.  As this is a new build [hoping to start it this month and finished by Sept] I don't have energy costs.  Any way to estimate them?

Thanks Z

Followed the hyperlink and I'm in zone 3.

Don't know what you are trying to communicate with the link though?  

Talk to me.

This but do it for your area and temperate climate year round. I have a higher efficiency furnace as compared to A/C simply because I use the heat side far more then the A/C side. A/C, all we really need is around 3 months or so, heat side, 7 months. The return is far greater on the heat side. I did push mine a bit higher on both side by installing an ECM motor later on. [but I paid wholesale price for it, not retail and labor]

And put some of the money into insulation, not just the equipment you can see. $1000 in added insulation, especially if it's marginal in the first place, can return savings far greater then new equipment over the long haul.

Thanks  @fxntime

Wall insulation will be R-20 with an air barrier and attic will be R-48.

Thanks @ZW17

Windows will be Silverline by Anderson with Low E film

Only 2 small windows on the north side.  2 3x5 windows on the east side and 3, 3x5 windows on the west side.  Most of the windows are south facing as the floor plan indicates.

@ZW17

I've been reading along and learning in preparations of the day my system goes out, but I'm curious about filters, too. My filter box is set up to run 4" or 1" and I guess I never really realized how much those can change air handling. Is there a better option between the two for filtration and keeping your system clean while not losing flow? I'm up for buying new filters soon and figured I'd get your thoughts.

I replaced 1", 20x25" filter with a 5" pleated, MERV 12 filter. What a difference it makes! There is at least twice the airflow. My AC was having a hard time keeping the temperature during very hot 100 degree days. Now it easily cools the house at any temperature.

The 5" filter lasts about 3 to 4 months. We have a Siberian Husky. She sheds a lot. I clean the filter with a vacuum cleaner about once per month.

I was directed here after making a post in GD (GD Thread).  This thread was EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks you for this!  My current system is from 2002 when house was built.  Goodman 2.5 ton (10 seer) R22 and 70k btu nat gas heat (80% AFUE) located in NW Ohio, 2000 sq ft home).  Cap went out the other day on blower fan, no big deal, $9 on Amazon.  Then when I was doing some testing to try and get the fan running I heard a funny noise from the evap coil  I found bubbles coming from one of the distributor lines that was under some condensate water in the pan.  Seeing with how old it is (and being R22), I figure its had a good run, but its time to bite the bullet.  I have 4 companies lined up to provide quotes.  Really the only thing I'm torn on is replacing the furnace at the same time.  I get that its worth the labor savings to do it now and its also 18 years old, but I hate the idea of trashing a unit that still functions fine (I actually replaced the inducing fan blower around Christmas time).  We hope to move in a year or two, and I know it will be a great selling point, but damn, I don't want to drop all that cash from savings right now with the Kung Flu fucking up the job market and economy. .  I'm sure I'll be back with some questions when I get some quotes (only to make sure I'm not missing anything and they are apples to apples).

My weekend is kicking off with a frozen evap coil on my geothermal unit.

Sigh.

Don't think it's airflow/filter.  Thawed, dried and replaced filter and it refreezes (slowly).  Based on my recent karma, guessing a leak somewhere - just a matter of if it's in the ground loop or the refrigerant side...  ugh.

Yeah, I'm assuming the ground loop is water based and the refrigerant is in the exchange.  Not my lane and haven't had to muck with the system much before so not exactly up to speed on it.

@ZW17

5+ quotes in.

Quote 1:
96.5% AFUE Carrier 60K BTU 2 stage Furnace
13 SEER 2.5 ton Carrier AC with N-style coil
Approx $6200 all said and done (or $5600 if I go with Payne brand, which is made by Carrier). He also offers 2% discount if you pay all up front vs 1/2 and 1/2 (so $6k and $5.5k).

Quote 2:
96% AFUE *no brand listed* 90k BTU 2 stage furnace
*No SEER rating listed*  3.5 ton *no brand listed*  AC
Little over $13,500
I sent a message to the person who did the quote asking for more info...like brand of equipment, but got no repsonse.

ETA: All 5 quotes in.  Everyone came up with 2.5 ton and 60k BTU furnace (except #2)

Quote 3:
96% AFUE 60K BTU Rheem 2 stage Furnace
13 SEER 2.5 ton Rheem AC
$7,400

Quote 4:
 A) 96% AFUE 60K BTU Daiken 2 stage furnace
    13 SEER 2.5 ton Daiken AC
    $8,871

 B) 96% AFUE 60K BTU Daiken Variable Speed furnace
     16 SEER 2.5 ton Daiken AC
    $11,844

 C) 98% AFRU 60K BTU Daiken modulating furnace
     16 SEER 2.5 ton Daiken AC
     $14,827

Quote 5:
  A) 80% AFUE 60K BTU American Standard single stage furnace
      13 SEER 2.5 ton American Standard AC
      $4,675

  B) 95% AFUE 60K BTU American Standard 2 stage furnace
      13 SEER 2.5 ton American Standard AC
      Upgrade to 5" filter ($295)
      $5,595

So its really down to #1 and #5.  I have personal friends and family who have used both and can attest to their work.  Really the only questions are...
1)  Payne vs Carrier vs American Standard  (I know Carrier makes Payne)
2)  Is it worth going to the 95% furnace vs the 80% if I plan to move in a couple years? (I know I won't see the energy savings in that short of time, but will it matter to new buyer if its 80/95?).  
3)  Is the 5" filter worth the $300 upgrade?
     


Looking to make a decision today to hopefully get it done before we go on vacation next month and schedules are filling up fast.  Thanks for any input!

Quote 2 doesn't seem to want your business.  American standard is Trane, which is generally considered a good thing.  Yes to the filter upgrade and maybe ask about a two stage or variable speed AC unit.  You will get much better humidity control.

I committed to company #5 today.  I went with the 95% upgrade and the 5" filter upgrade.  On a whim, I asked the guy if he would cut me a deal if I paid in cash day of install instead of 1/2 at kickoff and 1/2 at completion.  I only asked because company #1 offered it.  He said he would knock the price from $5595 to $5200 all in.  Hell yea!  . Goes to show that it never hurts to ask!  Install starts in 8 days

My sister had her AC shut off today and not restart

she pulled the power and opened it up



yeah, that will do it

it took her an hour to clean it all up and get the system back online

That image is shocking

I opened up my 1990s LENNOX and found chipmunks had been nesting in the insulation last month

keeping rodents out of the fiddly bits seems rather prudent

i gave the unit a spray down with coil cleaner and shoveled out a load of composting pine needles. The top and grill were getting pretty sun bleached, so I spray bombed it

i have considered making a louvered snow roof for my outdoor HVAC

@ZW17

Abbreviated backstory: I have a 1999 Rheem SEER 10 (I think 3 ton) unit that has been performing poorly for about the last 3 summers.  Extra crappy so far this year.  Extended run times in even mild upper 70's weather, icing coils, etc... so my father in law (former owner of this house and handyman) told me he used to top it off every so often because it must have a small leak somewhere and has the freon and gauges and stuff.  Offers to come by and top her off.  Long story short, I find out dude's been topping it off with it up with R410a.  Even came by for a discreet top off last fall when my wife mentioned it to her mom.  He says to me, "Repair technician once told me it's perfectly fine.  I topped off uncle Jimmy's AC the last two or three years befroe he got a new one."  My response was, "Your repair guy is retarded.  The fact that the condensers are radically different in size and the working pressures are off by a factor of 2 wasn't any kind of clue?  You're probably the one that finally killed Jimmy's AC."

This all went down over the weekend and I haven't turned it on since (two 80 and one 90 degree day ago, lol).  I checked the lines and superheat condition, but all I could read is 200ish psi on the liquid line weather it was running or not (which is unsurprisingly the vapor pressure of R410a).  Local A/C company says the service call will be $70 plus time to purge/evacuate and refill and that they charge $150/LB for R22.  My unit takes 66oz plus the lines, so call it almost 5# by the time your done. Dumping $700+ into a 1999 system?  LOL no.

I'll do this myself. So I've ordered a 10# tank of R22 that shows up tomorrow. I have a small cheap 3CFM harbor freight chinesium vacuum pump like you'd use on a car A/C. All I have to do is get some 1/4 SAE flare fittings and hose to hook the pump up to my gauge manifold and I should be able to evacuate the lines then refill the R22 myself. It'll probably take an hour or so of vacuuming with that small chinesium pump, but I should be all in <$200 to get it running and have 1/2 a tank R22 left to top off as needed.  What I don't know is:

a) Do I have to add oil to the new freon after venting then vacuuming the lines?
b) If so what kind? Where do I get it? Cheap is good, this thing is old.
c) How much? It's a 1999/2000 SEER 10 3-ton with scroll compressor. (keeping in mind, I think a bunch of the old oil will be leftover in the lines, but I don't know).