[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Shipping Insurance Scam (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/14/2014 5:25:30 PM EDT
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During the online order process for an AR I see a little box where I can volunteer to pay the shipping insurance. Since I am not the party making arrangements with the shipping company I have no liability and therefore no motive to insure. You will never see insurance listed as an option with a first-class business. They may break it down in the the transaction cost somewhere (S&H) but it will never be optional.
The fact that the dealer is willing to push the envelope here raises concerns. What other areas is he willing to push the envelope? Any problems could turn into a real hassle with a dealer like this. I would not use anything but a credit card for this transaction. DON'T USE A DEBIT CARD, cash, mo or electronic transfer with a guy like this. These types pray on the ignorant and will test your resolve given the opportunity, TRANSACTION ABORTED. No time for hassles. TTC |
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Quoted: I don't understand why anyone would have to pay insurance on shipping in the first place. You pay for your item to go from point A to point B. That contract should be honored by the shipper at their own expense if violated. |
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I just add it into my Gunbroker shipping cost without mentioning it, I ship nothing without insurance now and one way or the other the buyer is paying for it.
SGammo is the only company I can think of I've used that lists it as an option. I've had 2 claims paid out now, both UPS, both cases the package just went missing. I've never had to deal with a damage claim. |
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I see there are still a lot of people eho don't know what FOB means. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile ^^^^This. FOB shipping point means that title changes hands when the seller puts it on the truck. It gets lost and you don't have insurance, the seller MAY go to bat for you, but legally, it's your responsibility, not his. |
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I have yet to hear a story of anyone actually being paid on a shipping insurance claim. Any one I had ever filed was denied; if it broke, it wasn't properly packaged. End Of Story / Case Closed.  It was a battle but USPS paid me $5000 for my RR M-16 lower after it disappeared in the mail. |
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. |
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Quoted: If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. Quoted: Quoted: Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose.  or maybe in their usage agreement that's covered |
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better alert american express! they didn't know that
or maybe in their usage agreement that's covered Quoted:
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose.
or maybe in their usage agreement that's covered It may well be. However, FOB terms and when title transfers, is a well-established area of law. Most online sellers tend to err on the side of generating/maintaining goodwill, but it doesn't change the underlying legal principles. |
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If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. Quoted:
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. I doubt it. 
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. I doubt it.  http://youtu.be/fon9b-aO6ecOK. Demonstrate your knowledge. What is the difference between FOB shipping point and destination? What determines whether it is shipping point or destination? And most importantly, when does title transfer under both of those situations? I'll wait for you to peruse Wikipedia. . . |
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OK. Demonstrate your knowledge. What is the difference between FOB shipping point and destination? What determines whether it is shipping point or destination? And most importantly, when does title transfer under both of those situations? I'll wait for you to peruse Wikipedia. . . Quoted:
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. I doubt it. http://youtu.be/fon9b-aO6ecOK. Demonstrate your knowledge. What is the difference between FOB shipping point and destination? What determines whether it is shipping point or destination? And most importantly, when does title transfer under both of those situations? I'll wait for you to peruse Wikipedia. . . My knowledge is when I had a package not show up and the vendor told me to pound sand, I called my CC and the charges were reversed. When the dip shit vendor threatened legal action I called my CC and they had their legal department say "go fuck yourself" to the vendor. No vendor in their right mind wants a charge back. |
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My knowledge is when I had a package not show up and the vendor told me to pound sand, I called my CC and the charges were reversed. When the dip shit vendor threatened legal action I called my CC and they had their legal department say "go fuck yourself" to the vendor. No vendor in their right mind wants a charge back. Quoted:
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Sorry if the shit I ordered doesn't show up I call my CC and they reverse the charges, have fun with your charge back. Not my problem you didn't ship insured. If you paid for the shipping, and the seller went to court, you (or the credit card company) would lose. I doubt it. http://youtu.be/fon9b-aO6ecOK. Demonstrate your knowledge. What is the difference between FOB shipping point and destination? What determines whether it is shipping point or destination? And most importantly, when does title transfer under both of those situations? I'll wait for you to peruse Wikipedia. . . My knowledge is when I had a package not show up and the vendor told me to pound sand, I called my CC and the charges were reversed. When the dip shit vendor threatened legal action I called my CC and they had their legal department say "go fuck yourself" to the vendor. No vendor in their right mind wants a charge back. If you are arguing what the vendor is likely to do, I would tend to agree with you. But that has little to do with what the law says. |
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I'm more concerned with what reality says. Quoted:
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If you are arguing what the vendor is likely to do, I would tend to agree with you. But that has little to do with what the law says. I'm more concerned with what reality says. Reality doesn't say that you would win in court. 
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I have yet to hear a story of anyone actually being paid on a shipping insurance claim. Any one I had ever filed was denied; if it broke, it wasn't properly packaged. End Of Story / Case Closed. Don't know about damage claims, but I got UPS to pay for a lost box. Something I sold on the EE. Wouldn't say they made it easy but it worked out. |
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Reality doesn't say that you would win in court. Quoted:
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If you are arguing what the vendor is likely to do, I would tend to agree with you. But that has little to do with what the law says. I'm more concerned with what reality says. Reality doesn't say that you would win in court. You really think that a company like Discover wouldn't win in court? I have no doubt their user agreement would rip the shit out of any claim the vendor had. |
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You really think that a company like Discover wouldn't win in court? I have no doubt their user agreement would rip the shit out of any claim the vendor had. Quoted:
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If you are arguing what the vendor is likely to do, I would tend to agree with you. But that has little to do with what the law says. I'm more concerned with what reality says. Reality doesn't say that you would win in court. You really think that a company like Discover wouldn't win in court? I have no doubt their user agreement would rip the shit out of any claim the vendor had. There may well be a an agreement that creates extra burdens on sellers beyond what the basic law says. And I am sure that if you were aware of the language of such an agreement, you would be posting it. Barring that, it is simply speculation on your part whereas my presentation of the law is spot on correct. |
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There may well be a an agreement that creates extra burdens on sellers beyond what the basic law says. And I am sure that if you were aware of the language of such an agreement, you would be posting it. Barring that, it is simply speculation on your part whereas my presentation of the law is spot on correct. Quoted:
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If you are arguing what the vendor is likely to do, I would tend to agree with you. But that has little to do with what the law says. I'm more concerned with what reality says. Reality doesn't say that you would win in court. You really think that a company like Discover wouldn't win in court? I have no doubt their user agreement would rip the shit out of any claim the vendor had. There may well be a an agreement that creates extra burdens on sellers beyond what the basic law says. And I am sure that if you were aware of the language of such an agreement, you would be posting it. Barring that, it is simply speculation on your part whereas my presentation of the law is spot on correct. I'm sure companies like Discover, Visa, MasterCard, etc... just engage in actionable behavior that will cost them money all the time.
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<snip> It may well be. However, FOB terms and when title transfers, is a well-established area of law. Most online sellers tend to err on the side of generating/maintaining goodwill, but it doesn't change the underlying legal principles. You might want to educate yourself about what situations the UCC applies to and what situations it doesn't apply to. |
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if the couple of dollars a vendor might ask to purchase/add insurance on a shipment is a deal breaker then the deal wasn't very good in the first place. You've either missed the point entirely or you sell a lot of insurance. These types of dealers are praying on the ignorant. The dealer will either purchase shipping insurance to protect themselves or they won't regardless of whether you have chosen to pay twice for it. Why??? BECAUSE THEY ARE LIABLE. By offering to sell you insurance twice the dealer has demonstrated his low standard of ethics. AVOID THESE TYPES. TTC |
| I had USPS pack my mountain bike. In transit, the 159$ Shimano X9 carbon fiber derrailleur was broken. I paid for the insurance. They said it was improperly packed. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO FKING PACKED IT!!!! And they refused to pay for the damages. "Insurance" is a joke. |
| I can't imagine any seller with a conscience not caring whether or not I get the package, and who would be willing to tell me nothing more then "Sorry, but tough shit." Just the fact that they post that insurance is extra tells me I'm dealing with a flakey asshole. |
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I had USPS pack my mountain bike. In transit, the 159$ Shimano X9 carbon fiber derrailleur was broken. I paid for the insurance. They said it was improperly packed. THEY WERE THE ONES WHO FKING PACKED IT!!!! And they refused to pay for the damages. "Insurance" is a joke. A fine example......the insurance isn't the problem. You entered into a contract with an undesirable, they chose to test your resolve and you folded. TTC |
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You might want to educate yourself about what situations the UCC applies to and what situations it doesn't apply to. Quoted:
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<snip> It may well be. However, FOB terms and when title transfers, is a well-established area of law. Most online sellers tend to err on the side of generating/maintaining goodwill, but it doesn't change the underlying legal principles. You might want to educate yourself about what situations the UCC applies to and what situations it doesn't apply to. I'm certainly open to learning. Please, educate me. |
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The buyer and shipping co have no contract. The buyer would seek remedy from the dealer and the buyer would win. The dealer assumes liability by dictating shipping terms. TTC The dealer isn't dictating shipping terms. The buyer could arrange any kind of shipping he wants to. The dealer may well arrange for the shipping, but it is a convenience for the buyer. If the buyer pays for shipping, the seller fulfills his obligation to deliver by delivering it to the the shipper, not to the buyer. Title changes hands, meaning the buyer owns it, once it is placed on the delivery vehicle. |
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I have yet to hear a story of anyone actually being paid on a shipping insurance claim. Any one I had ever filed was denied; if it broke, it wasn't properly packaged. End Of Story / Case Closed. Yup. UPS delivered my package to the wrong house nearly two months ago, and I'm still waiting for my claim to be paid. |
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The dealer isn't dictating shipping terms. The buyer could arrange any kind of shipping he wants to. The dealer may well arrange for the shipping, but it is a convenience for the buyer. If the buyer pays for shipping, the seller fulfills his obligation to deliver by delivering it to the the shipper, not to the buyer. Title changes hands, meaning the buyer owns it, once it is placed on the delivery vehicle. Quoted:
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The buyer and shipping co have no contract. The buyer would seek remedy from the dealer and the buyer would win. The dealer assumes liability by dictating shipping terms. TTC The dealer isn't dictating shipping terms. The buyer could arrange any kind of shipping he wants to. The dealer may well arrange for the shipping, but it is a convenience for the buyer. If the buyer pays for shipping, the seller fulfills his obligation to deliver by delivering it to the the shipper, not to the buyer. Title changes hands, meaning the buyer owns it, once it is placed on the delivery vehicle. I am not aware of a single business to consumer enterprise that allows the consumer to dictate the shipping terms. It is not a viable business model so the vendor accepts liability because the alternative is bankruptcy. It's a convenience for the vendor. Change in Title does not relieve the vendor of his liability to the buyer if the vendor has contracted the shipper, which all common B2C vendors do. TTC |
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I am not aware of a single business to consumer enterprise that allows the consumer to dictate the shipping terms. It is not a viable business model so the vendor accepts liability because the alternative is bankruptcy. It's a convenience for the vendor. Change in Title does not relieve the vendor of his liability to the buyer if the vendor has contracted the shipper, which all common B2C vendors do. TTC Quoted:
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The buyer and shipping co have no contract. The buyer would seek remedy from the dealer and the buyer would win. The dealer assumes liability by dictating shipping terms. TTC The dealer isn't dictating shipping terms. The buyer could arrange any kind of shipping he wants to. The dealer may well arrange for the shipping, but it is a convenience for the buyer. If the buyer pays for shipping, the seller fulfills his obligation to deliver by delivering it to the the shipper, not to the buyer. Title changes hands, meaning the buyer owns it, once it is placed on the delivery vehicle. I am not aware of a single business to consumer enterprise that allows the consumer to dictate the shipping terms. It is not a viable business model so the vendor accepts liability because the alternative is bankruptcy. It's a convenience for the vendor. Change in Title does not relieve the vendor of his liability to the buyer if the vendor has contracted the shipper, which all common B2C vendors do. TTC LOL! Go to walmart.com, pick an item, and check out the option to have the item shipped, or pick up in the store. Just because you aren't familiar with it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You clearly don't understand what FOB shipping point means. Change of title absolutely means that the liability has ended. That credit card companies may have vendor agreements that are contrary to that principle (and there has been no evidence of that presented here, even though it may be the case) doesn't change the underlying legal principle. Buy something from a vendor, you pay for the shipping, and pay cash, check, or money order where a third party doesn't have the ability to do a chargeback. Once they put it on the truck, their liability ends. If it doesn't get to you, they will probably help initiate an investigation with the shipper, but if it ends up gone and the shipper doesn't make it right, you have NO recourse against the seller. You own it once it's on the truck. Go to court, sue the seller, and you will lose. Under the FOB terms, the seller fulfilled 100% of their responsibility. |
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Y'all are missing the big picture scam of the shipping game.
The shipping charge itself. No retailer who ships more than a few packages a day pays the quoted shipping charge. The more they ship the greater the discount they get on every package. If Midway, just as a theoretical example, charges you $15 shipping for a 2lb package it's a guarantee that Midway is actually paying UPS or FedEx maybe $4 for shipping. It's pure profit and every shipper does it. Michael Dell built much of his fortune on that model. FedEx, UPS and DHL lost money on every single Dell shipment. But the volume was so great that that was all that mattered. Being able to claim the volume of shipments. That Dell PC that you paid $60 or $80 for shipping? Dell paid, in many cases and for a long time about .10 cents. So rail about paying $2 for "insurance" (and it's not insurance; it's declared value coverage. There's a difference) all you want. The bigger ass raping is the shipping charge. |