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Posted: 4/18/2007 6:14:15 PM EDT
I am just going to swipe my comments from what I previously posted on the WI Hometown forum...and then I'm going to get a drink, board up my windows, and prepare for the sh*tstorm.



You guys tend to believe that current lockdown procedures equate to just sitting in a corner as the bad guy executes students one by one...

The actual atmosphere would be utter chaos. Nobody is going to remain placid as their contemporaries are being shot systematically. I am sure that some people do attempt to rush the shooter, or protect their friends in some other way like acting as a human shield. Self preservation is a basic human instinct...

Fleeing is definitely not the answer. It would be hectic, people rushing a shooter in a confined hallway, a few get shot, others trip over them...huge mess. If you opt for fleeing away from the shooter, you get shot in the back, or if you make it outside where do you go then? It isn't a fire drill where a designated meeting place is possible. Any time you have lots of students running somewhere you also open up the possibility for the bad guy to employ explosives and make another Bath School Disaster.

What would make sense to me, would be to have well-trained faculty--familiar with disarming an armed assailant and other hand to hand fighting techniques (or CCW of course), and to continue with quick lockdown procedures. That way you are at least significantly reducing the distance to where a melee is a viable option.




Their locks failed on the doors at VT. There was a remote access that didn't work with regards to locking individual classrooms. Some people were smart enough to barricade doors, others put their body in the way (causing the gunman to shoot through the doors). Had the university actually locked down the campus after the first shooting, or even if the locks worked properly the incident wouldn't have been as severe.

The girl that was interviewed with regards to something like 20/25 students in her German class being gunned down said that the shooter "peeked in the room" on more than one occassion before opening up. Had they barricaded the door with tables and chairs he wouldn't have been able to come back into the room. I also believe that the shooter padlocked the external doors, not individual classrooms...making fleeing difficult.


For those of you that want to GTFO once a "red alert" is called over the school PA, what happens when you find that you're barricaded in by the shooter, and locked out of classrooms by standard school procedure? You're stuck in the hallway with an armed assailant and nowhere to run. Please help me understand...HOW is that a GOOD idea?
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 6:50:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Are you nutz?  Do you think you can "lock down" thousands of adults in hundreds of buildings in a university?

Ever heard of windows?

And no, it isn't like a fire drill.  It would not be smart to walk out in lines and bunch together at a designated meeting point.

You are not responsible for everyone else's safety.  You are responsible for yours.  

There are no rules in such an event.  

I have told my kids, doing whatever everyone else is doing... is wrong.  It will get you killed.

People went Left or Right as directed while exiting the cattle cars at Buchenwald and Auschwitz.  They did what everyone else did.  

What if they did rush the guards?  Some would have been killed, but many would have survived.

They conformed themselves right into the ovens.

When something like this happens, you do what you are told.

I'm going to do what I think is best for me.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 6:56:34 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't think a standard lockdown would have worked, but classes should have been cancelled after the first shooting and every attempt made to clear the campus.

Bill3508
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 6:58:10 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Are you nutz?  Do you think you can "lock down" thousands of adults in hundreds of buildings in a university? Yes, you could. It really wouldn't be that hard. The engineering building had remote activated electronic locks on the classrooms that didn't lock properly.

Ever heard of windows?That would take rediculous motivation to break into a locked building, random class that looks deserted-per lockdown procedure, just to gain access to a hallway and no other classrooms.

And no, it isn't like a fire drill.  It would not be smart to walk out in lines and bunch together at a designated meeting point.

You are not responsible for everyone else's safety.  You are responsible for yours.  The school has a responsibility for the safety of its students...think about elementary education. You are trusting educators with your children's lives well before they can truly defend themselves.

There are no rules in such an event.  Complete chaos, I know...but it isn't justification to lose all personal reason.

I have told my kids, doing whatever everyone else is doing... is wrong.  It will get you killed.

People went Left or Right as directed while exiting the cattle cars at Buchenwald and Auschwitz.  They did what everyone else did.  If they didn't go with everyone else, they died first.

What if they did rush the guards?  Some would have been killed, but many would have survived.They didn't know what was coming...why should some get killed when they all may survive?

They conformed themselves right into the ovens.

When something like this happens, you do what you are told.

I'm going to do what I think is best for me.



ETA: What about the last scenario I presented in my opening statement? You leave the classroom, as they lock it per standard procedure, gunman locked you in, you're stuck in a hallway with an assailant...I'll do what I am told because it'll keep me alive longer bud.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 7:39:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Just a little bit of a bump...
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 7:39:39 PM EDT
[#5]
People who fled lived.  They jumped out of windows.  People that barricaded the doors and prevented him from getting to him lived.

People that blocked the shooter from getting to other people died but saved others.

The Holocaust survivor became the exact opposite of a suicide bomber.  With his death, he saved others.

No action on the part of anybody but the people who were the intended victims protected those victims.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:15:24 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
No action on the part of anybody but the people who were the intended victims protected those victims.


True, however I must argue that the VT admins could have done more to protect the victims of this massacre. Pushing for CCW on campus, training faculty for dealing with armed assailants or even simply barricading the door, assuring that their locking mechanisms were working properly, locking them promptly, false assumptions of shooter that fled with limited to no witness accounts of such...
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:28:28 PM EDT
[#7]
No takers tonight on the subject?


Yesterday I got flamed for a few hours on this...


I even got out my shitstorm umbrella today. ETA: Tagged and I'll give it a bump tomorrow when I have some time. I need sleep.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:38:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Lockdowns are invitation to a fucking slaughter.    Make no mistake, I bet the ROP terrorists just drool over the idea of attacking one of our schools, they don't even have to really work to capture anyone, the lockdown does it for them.  With everyone bunched up nice and close, it sure doesn't take a lot of explosives to kill everyone.
Link Posted: 4/18/2007 8:51:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Lockdowns aren't the proper procedure to follow when someone is already inside a building causing trouble. Lockdowns are for securing a building to keep someone OUT who doesn't belong inside... Such as... escaped prisoner/armed robber/etc. on the loose on foot in the general area,  you lock down the school... meaning  you lock the doors and whoever's inside stays inside and whoever's outside stays outside... you don't open the doors for any reason.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:00:04 AM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No action on the part of anybody but the people who were the intended victims protected those victims.


True, however I must argue that the VT admins could have done more to protect the victims of this massacre. Pushing for CCW on campus, training faculty for dealing with armed assailants or even simply barricading the door, assuring that their locking mechanisms were working properly, locking them promptly, false assumptions of shooter that fled with limited to no witness accounts of such...


Agreed.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:38:38 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Lockdowns are invitation to a fucking slaughter.    Make no mistake, I bet the ROP terrorists just drool over the idea of attacking one of our schools, they don't even have to really work to capture anyone, the lockdown does it for them.  With everyone bunched up nice and close, it sure doesn't take a lot of explosives to kill everyone.


Organized fleeing is the real invitation for slaughter. At the very worst lockdown would at least contain the killing.

Sure, "terrorists" would drool over the idea of attacking one of our schools...if their goal was merely to rack up a body count. Terrorists however, are not by nature madmen, they rationalize all of their killings to serve a greater political purpose. Attacking an institution of learning would be an exercise in futility with regards to gaining support for your cause. Just look at the Beslan school incident...the international outcry was intense, and everyone wanted the terrorists heads.

Simply stated, schools are rediculously easy targets...yet they are not attacked by extremist terrorists pretty much ever. The political message inherent in terrorism would be lost in the barbarism of the act.

Hence, schools will likely not be dealing with terrorists whom are well-trained in weaponry and explosive implementation. Crude pipebombs or molotovs which may be employed probably wouldn't really have the desired area effect. (Columbine comes to mind...planted explosives, many of which didn't work)
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:47:12 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Lockdowns aren't the proper procedure to follow when someone is already inside a building causing trouble. Lockdowns are for securing a building to keep someone OUT who doesn't belong inside... Such as... escaped prisoner/armed robber/etc. on the loose on foot in the general area,  you lock down the school... meaning  you lock the doors and whoever's inside stays inside and whoever's outside stays outside... you don't open the doors for any reason.


Wrong.

You're clearly not familiar with lockdown procedure at all. If a threat is viewed as being within the school, i.e. gunman enters the building, a "code red" is issued which equates to teachers locking classrooms and making the room look unoccupied. The purpose being to dissuade or stop the intruder from entering a classroom (not the building), stalling for time for LEOs to respond, or to discourage the intruder alltogether. This is common procedure from elementary school through college.

It frightens me that you'd trust your children being at school when you don't even know their safety procedures. No that isn't liberalist rhetoric, I could give a shit less what happens to others children...but you sure as hell have an obligation to protect your own and see to their safety when you're not around.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:49:44 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
Lockdowns aren't the proper procedure to follow when someone is already inside a building causing trouble. Lockdowns are for securing a building to keep someone OUT who doesn't belong inside... Such as... escaped prisoner/armed robber/etc. on the loose on foot in the general area,  you lock down the school... meaning  you lock the doors and whoever's inside stays inside and whoever's outside stays outside... you don't open the doors for any reason.


Unfortunately the average school administrator is not going to make that distinction.  They will follow the menu provided to them by the board/police/BradyCenter etc.

They will act just like a typical idiot in tech support.  If it is not clearly on the checklist, they will brain lock, or revert to the (obviously inappropriate) checklist again.

I bet 99 out of 100 school principals, when faced with any emergency other than a fire, will institute a lockdown and hunker down to wait for the police to arrive, even if they know they are locking the kids up with the danger, because its all they know how to do.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:50:53 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Lockdowns are invitation to a fucking slaughter.    Make no mistake, I bet the ROP terrorists just drool over the idea of attacking one of our schools, they don't even have to really work to capture anyone, the lockdown does it for them.  With everyone bunched up nice and close, it sure doesn't take a lot of explosives to kill everyone.


Organized fleeing is the real invitation for slaughter. At the very worst lockdown would at least contain the killing.

Sure, "terrorists" would drool over the idea of attacking one of our schools...if their goal was merely to rack up a body count. Terrorists however, are not by nature madmen, they rationalize all of their killings to serve a greater political purpose. Attacking an institution of learning would be an exercise in futility with regards to gaining support for your cause. Just look at the Beslan school incident...the international outcry was intense, and everyone wanted the terrorists heads.

Simply stated, schools are rediculously easy targets...yet they are not attacked by extremist terrorists pretty much ever. The political message inherent in terrorism would be lost in the barbarism of the act.

Hence, schools will likely not be dealing with terrorists whom are well-trained in weaponry and explosive implementation. Crude pipebombs or molotovs which may be employed probably wouldn't really have the desired area effect. (Columbine comes to mind...planted explosives, many of which didn't work)


http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=117912

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/02/15/global15342.htm

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=298862002
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:04:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Where did I say that you should remain placid in the face of real and imminent danger?

If the building is set on fire...duh, don't stay in it. And also, lockdowns do NOT lock the doors both ways. You can still run out if the perp is in the same room as you. I am merely stating that is the time to nut-up and fight the guy...rushing down a hallway at him is ludicrous.
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