[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Red dots sights on handguns (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/2/2020 4:52:00 PM EDT
|
Do we have a forum for this topic? Trijicon RMR vs AIMPOINT ACRO is what I’m interested in. I have both. The RMR is on a Roland Special and the ACRO is on a G17 with a Brownells slide. |
|
Wasn't someone bashing the ACRO's battery life the other day? Edit: This. |
|
I still can't believe someone at Aimpoint convinced the rest of the swedes that even though their entire following is built on 1. Durability and 2. Battery life, that coming out with a micro RDS that is a marginal improvement to current competitors in #1 and a dismal abject fucking failure to even compete with the budget options in #2, was a good idea. I hope they fired him. |
| I love Aimpoint, but I’m very meh on the Acro. It was a good first attempt, but I don’t think they’re there yet. I believe the Acro will be remembered as a stepping stone optic that came out before whatever micro optic Aimpoint releases next. Until then, the RMR is the standard. Also, Holosun is on the way up and lots of people even prefer them to the RMR. I don’t have a micro holosun (yet) but I’ve been happy with their rifle optics. |
|
I like my ACRO, personally. The battery life is about 10 days if you leave it on maximum. I don't. I need it on max when shooting outdoors in brightest sunlight. I dial it down to 8 or 9 for daily carry. I dial it down to about 6 when I take the gun off at night. I also replace the battery preemptively once a month. As we're under lockdown I'm pushing it a bit at the moment...I haven't changed the current battery in about 45 days. I'm going to see how long my normal routine will take to kill the battery. I'd estimate no more than 60 days. Choosing a red dot is about choosing what problems you want to live with. With the ACRO you don't have to worry about what fasteners you buy, getting this specific plate from this particular maker, and you don't have to remove the optic to replace the battery. You don't end up fucking with the mounting of the optic nearly as much and that prevents some of the issues like snapped fasteners, stripped threads, etc that I've seen over the years with the RMR. The ACRO is probably the optic that is most impervious to impacts and conditions. It doesn't auto adjust and the battery life is incredibly brief. Which means it will not be a good fit for your typical police officer or concealed carrier. Of course, no RDS is really a good fit for those sorts of people because it requires a pretty refined presentation to consistently get a dot when you draw...and unfortunately most people are not putting in the work to get that nailed down. Cops barely clean their guns. much less stay on top of adjusting their optic brightness and keeping their batteries changed. It's certainly not perfect. But I don't see a slide-mounted RDS on the market that is right now. All of them have drawbacks. So it's about picking the problems you want to live with. I'll be buying another ACRO in the relatively near future. |
|
Quoted: I still can't believe someone at Aimpoint convinced the rest of the swedes that even though their entire following is built on 1. Durability and 2. Battery life, that coming out with a micro RDS that is a marginal improvement to current competitors in #1 and a dismal abject fucking failure to even compete with the budget options in #2, was a good idea. I hope they fired him. They clearly sacrificed #2 for #1. I'm not so sure about "marginal" on number 1, though. If you have the design requirements that the optic be #1 Aimpoint durable and #2 that you need to be able to replace the battery without removing the optic then your design choices are limited. Hence the battery. I don't think that they designed the optic around the battery. I think they laid out the design requirements and then were left with a battery that has 1/5 the power of a 2032 as a consequence. |
|
Quoted: I don’t know much about the ACRO other than I like the form factor of it. Why is the battery life so much less than something like a T1 Micro? I would think that they would use essentially (if not exactly) the same electronics package. The internal electronics are likely very, very similar if not identical. It uses a battery that has 1/5 the power capacity of the battery used in a T1 or T2. People also don't realize that LED's consume power on an exponential curve. The battery life quotes for Aimpoint rifle optics that are years are based on a middle power setting. On max power that battery life drops significantly. But it's still long enough that if you change the battery once a year you'll probably be fine. When you look at the ACRO closely and remember that one of the design requirements is that you can't remove the optic to change the battery, it becomes clear pretty quick they didn't have much choice. Fitting the optic within the dimensions of the slide, using the Aimpoint "tube within a tube" armoring strategy and requiring that you can replace the battery without removing the optic doesn't leave you with many options. |
|
Quoted: The internal electronics are likely very, very similar if not identical. It uses a battery that has 1/5 the power capacity of the battery used in a T1 or T2. People also don't realize that LED's consume power on an exponential curve. The battery life quotes for Aimpoint rifle optics that are years are based on a middle power setting. On max power that battery life drops significantly. But it's still long enough that if you change the battery once a year you'll probably be fine. When you look at the ACRO closely and remember that one of the design requirements is that you can't remove the optic to change the battery, it becomes clear pretty quick they didn't have much choice. Fitting the optic within the dimensions of the slide, using the Aimpoint "tube within a tube" armoring strategy and requiring that you can replace the battery without removing the optic doesn't leave you with many options. I see, thank you. I didn’t realize that the ACRO used a different battery. That blows. |
|
Quoted: They clearly sacrificed #2 for #1. I'm not so sure about "marginal" on number 1, though. If you have the design requirements that the optic be #1 Aimpoint durable and #2 that you need to be able to replace the battery without removing the optic then your design choices are limited. Hence the battery. I don't think that they designed the optic around the battery. I think they laid out the design requirements and then were left with a battery that has 1/5 the power of a 2032 as a consequence. So a huge jump in durability, for me, leaves me with something that's only marginally beneficial even if it's a significant improvement. |
|
Quoted: I like my ACRO, personally. The battery life is about 10 days if you leave it on maximum. I don't. I need it on max when shooting outdoors in brightest sunlight. I dial it down to 8 or 9 for daily carry. I dial it down to about 6 when I take the gun off at night. I also replace the battery preemptively once a month. As we're under lockdown I'm pushing it a bit at the moment...I haven't changed the current battery in about 45 days. I'm going to see how long my normal routine will take to kill the battery. I'd estimate no more than 60 days. Choosing a red dot is about choosing what problems you want to live with. With the ACRO you don't have to worry about what fasteners you buy, getting this specific plate from this particular maker, and you don't have to remove the optic to replace the battery. You don't end up fucking with the mounting of the optic nearly as much and that prevents some of the issues like snapped fasteners, stripped threads, etc that I've seen over the years with the RMR. The ACRO is probably the optic that is most impervious to impacts and conditions. It doesn't auto adjust and the battery life is incredibly brief. Which means it will not be a good fit for your typical police officer or concealed carrier. Of course, no RDS is really a good fit for those sorts of people because it requires a pretty refined presentation to consistently get a dot when you draw...and unfortunately most people are not putting in the work to get that nailed down. Cops barely clean their guns. much less stay on top of adjusting their optic brightness and keeping their batteries changed. It's certainly not perfect. But I don't see a slide-mounted RDS on the market that is right now. All of them have drawbacks. So it's about picking the problems you want to live with. I'll be buying another ACRO in the relatively near future. That’s about where I’m at on this too. Changing the battery once a month is not a dealbreaker for me. It is very easy to change the battery on the ACRO. I’ve seen some guys complain about the blue tint on the RMR. I have had cataracts in both eyes and had them removed. Lost my ability to clearly see irons. I am goin to fix up the next pistol with a red dot and am leaning to the ACRO again. |
|
Quoted: The internal electronics are likely very, very similar if not identical. It uses a battery that has 1/5 the power capacity of the battery used in a T1 or T2. People also don't realize that LED's consume power on an exponential curve. The battery life quotes for Aimpoint rifle optics that are years are based on a middle power setting. On max power that battery life drops significantly. But it's still long enough that if you change the battery once a year you'll probably be fine. When you look at the ACRO closely and remember that one of the design requirements is that you can't remove the optic to change the battery, it becomes clear pretty quick they didn't have much choice. Fitting the optic within the dimensions of the slide, using the Aimpoint "tube within a tube" armoring strategy and requiring that you can replace the battery without removing the optic doesn't leave you with many options. Yet the Holosun 509 seems to be doing everything better than the ACRO. |
|
The Trijicon is the way to go. I have two now and after a year I've gotten as good with the red dot as I ever was with iron sights, I have an injury in my right eye from a Army injury and the red dot makes a terrific difference.Attached File |
|
I have an RMR, SRO, and ACRO. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, so "better" depends on intended use. RMR is durable with a long battery life, but the optic window is the smallest with the most distortion. I use them on concealed carry and duty guns. SRO has a huge forgiving window and good battery life, but it's not durable enough for a duty gun. I use mine for competition and concealed carry. ACRO has the clearest glass and good durability, but the battery life is poor. I use mine on duty and competition guns. With the current market MRDS offerings you can pick two: durability, glass, or battery life. |
|
Quoted: How would you quantify the durability improvement? "Marginal" probably is hyperbole on my part, but it's partially due to never encountering a durability issue with RMRs. Quoted: How would you quantify the durability improvement? "Marginal" probably is hyperbole on my part, but it's partially due to never encountering a durability issue with RMRs. I've run into quite a few over the years. The newer RMR's are much better, but the older ones were notoriously fragile. The newer ones seem to stand up to a fair bit of abuse, but I've yet to see one survive being run over by several police vehicles. Friend of mine is a full time deputy in Georgia. They were at the range when they got an emergency call for a rescue of an elderly person who had fallen into some sort of hole on a remote piece of property. In their haste he forgot he'd put his duty gun, equipped with an Aimpoint, on the roof of his truck. He took off and it ended up in the road...where it was run over by several police vehicles following him on the call. They found the gun much later that night and the optic had survived all that and was in perfect working order...although the road rash on the outside of it was pretty gnarly. It's not just that, either...the enclosed emitter makes it more impervious to interference from the elements, moisture especially. It doesn't care how wet it gets. Now does the average guy carrying his gun concealed need those capabilities? Probably not. Still, the reason why I went with the ACRO is because I wanted to worry about as little as possible on an optic I carry every day. Essentially I just have to worry about the battery. I prefer that to the set of concerns that come with the RMR. So a huge jump in durability, for me, leaves me with something that's only marginally beneficial even if it's a significant improvement. the most durable optic in the world isn't much good if the battery is dead. So it's about picking the set of problems you find easiest to live with. |
|
I went with the Holosun because I liked it better than the Trijicon. Attached File Attached File |
|
Quoted: Yet the Holosun 509 seems to be doing everything better than the ACRO. That remains to be seen. Holosun makes some pretty neat stuff. But it's Chinese manufacture and it's a brand name in front of a factory that's making optics for a number of different brands. The Holosun is an enclosed emitter, but it's not as heavily armored as the ACRO. That's likely why they could use a larger battery. The battery that the 509 uses has about double the capacity of the ACRO battery. It has about 1/2 the capacity of the CR2032 in the RMR. It is unlikely that the 509 will withstand the sort of punishment that an ACRO can survive...but for most users that point is moot. Whether Holosun can keep the quality control on each unit as high as Aimpoint does will be interesting to see, because the Holosun's price point is right in the ballpark of the ACRO. |
|
Quoted: I went with the Holosun because I liked it better than the Trijicon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun_jpg-1347894.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun-Dotr_jpg-1347903.JPG I have the red version on a shotgun and it's just not bright enough for my eyes in bright daylight. The green seems much more visible. I may have to swap it out. |
|
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Delta Point Pro yet. Has it fallen completely out of favor? I have RMRs on a few pistols, and will say that the tint can be a nuisance at times. I'm still happy with them though, for both the durability and the small footprint. I'd like to try the SRO next. |
|
Quoted: I have the red version on a shotgun and it's just not bright enough for my eyes in bright daylight. The green seems much more visible. I may have to swap it out. Quoted: Quoted: I went with the Holosun because I liked it better than the Trijicon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun_jpg-1347894.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun-Dotr_jpg-1347903.JPG I have the red version on a shotgun and it's just not bright enough for my eyes in bright daylight. The green seems much more visible. I may have to swap it out. But shooting into the sky is different than shooting at lower angles.... I have never tried any sort of RDS on my shotguns. |
|
Quoted: I went with the Holosun because I liked it better than the Trijicon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun_jpg-1347894.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun-Dotr_jpg-1347903.JPG Lol, this is why China will come out of the COVID games unscathed. Too many people buy their stuff cause it's cheaper. |
| I have the RMR RM07 (6.5 moa dot) on my home defense G19. Outstanding sight, easy to pick up when presented and makes it seem I am a marksman when shooting it. If I was still in LE it would be my duty weapon. The red dots, once you practice a bit with them, almost gives you an unfair advantage in shooting it. |
|
Quoted: I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Delta Point Pro yet. Has it fallen completely out of favor? Durability issues. I've personally seen a bunch of them fail. The battery contacts in the circuit boards would come loose under recoil and require factory replacement. I've seen it happen before and after Leupold "fixed" the issue. |
|
Quoted: Lol, this is why China will come out of the COVID games unscathed. Too many people buy their stuff cause it's cheaper. Quoted: Quoted: I went with the Holosun because I liked it better than the Trijicon. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun_jpg-1347894.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/20962/Holosun-Dotr_jpg-1347903.JPG Lol, this is why China will come out of the COVID games unscathed. Too many people buy their stuff cause it's cheaper. 
|
|
Quoted: China appreciates your business, while killing Americans. Quoted: Quoted: I didn't buy it because it was cheaper - I bought it because I liked the performance and features better.... China appreciates your business, while killing Americans. 
|
|
Quoted: Durability issues. I've personally seen a bunch of them fail. The battery contacts in the circuit boards would come loose under recoil and require factory replacement. I've seen it happen before and after Leupold "fixed" the issue. Yep. Already sent back the one on my M17 once. Failed after 1k rounds or so. Took about a month to get it back after they received it. It's too bad because I really like the DPP but I can't trust it. I cant believe they haven't fixed the problem at this point. |
|
Quoted: Durability issues. I've personally seen a bunch of them fail. The battery contacts in the circuit boards would come loose under recoil and require factory replacement. I've seen it happen before and after Leupold "fixed" the issue. Quoted: Quoted: I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Delta Point Pro yet. Has it fallen completely out of favor? Durability issues. I've personally seen a bunch of them fail. The battery contacts in the circuit boards would come loose under recoil and require factory replacement. I've seen it happen before and after Leupold "fixed" the issue. |
|
Quoted: Yep. Already sent back the one on my M17 once. Failed after 1k rounds or so. Took about a month to get it back after they received it. It's too bad because I really like the DPP but I can't trust it. I cant believe they haven't fixed the problem at this point. Quoted: Quoted: Durability issues. I've personally seen a bunch of them fail. The battery contacts in the circuit boards would come loose under recoil and require factory replacement. I've seen it happen before and after Leupold "fixed" the issue. Yep. Already sent back the one on my M17 once. Failed after 1k rounds or so. Took about a month to get it back after they received it. It's too bad because I really like the DPP but I can't trust it. I cant believe they haven't fixed the problem at this point. That's sad to hear. I love the viewing window on the DPP, but this makes me glad I went with RMRs instead. |
 That is my duty gun I carry. The biggest problem I see training shooters new to RDS is they try to shoot the gun by looking at the dot. You should be threat focused and that is the opposite of what we learn shooting iron where we focus on the front sight. Keeping both eyes open gets them too. I tape the front window of the RDS to force them to look at the target and keep both eyes open. It is then that they understand. It takes practice. I draw a little different, present a little different, and shoot a lot different. When it all clicks, man does it make life easier. Comp shooters already know this. |
|
Quoted: I killed four of them... The last one died during dryfire drills. D R Y F I R E Quoted: Quoted: That's sad to hear. I love the viewing window on the DPP, but this makes me glad I went with RMRs instead. I killed four of them... The last one died during dryfire drills. D R Y F I R E I'm an optimist, I decided to give one a run as a duty optic because it's what the gun was cut for. We'll see. At worst I have to resort to the same irons I've used the last 30 +years.  Then buy an RMR. |
|
Quoted: I'm an optimist, I decided to give one a run as a duty optic because it's what the gun was cut for. We'll see. At worst I have to resort to the same irons I've used the last 30 +years. Then buy an RMR.https://i.imgur.com/gtecF1G.jpg?1 Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's sad to hear. I love the viewing window on the DPP, but this makes me glad I went with RMRs instead. I killed four of them... The last one died during dryfire drills. D R Y F I R E I'm an optimist, I decided to give one a run as a duty optic because it's what the gun was cut for. We'll see. At worst I have to resort to the same irons I've used the last 30 +years. Then buy an RMR.https://i.imgur.com/gtecF1G.jpg?1 Jelly. Trumpbuks may buy me a staccato. |
|
Quoted: What do you want to do with it? Competition gun which is already milled for the footprint? Maybe. Serious gun? Fuck no. It would go on my Ruger Mark IV Lite. So not a gun for plinking and popping varmints. However, what's wrong with it going on a "serious" gun? |