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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/23/2005 4:07:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:08:44 PM EDT by Soljah46]
A thought just came accross my mind today as i was playing Ace Combat 5. I know absolutely nothing about planes so bear with me. When a fighter uses their guns, do the shell casings fall from the plane or are they stored internally? Do the guns on jets even use cased ammunition? I was wondering this cause I don't recall ever seeing anything falling from the planes when they shoot their guns. Granted that I've only seen this in movies and not in real life. Please help my curiosity.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:10:38 PM EDT
I think that planes like the A-10 have a bay inside that the 30mm casings fall into for re-use, but I think most other planes have a chute that dumps the casings............If you ever see a vid with an Apache or Cobra, you can see the casings fall clear of the bottom of the gun
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:14:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:15:05 PM EDT by bmick325]
Depends on the type of cannon.

For example, the US M61A1 Vulcan has a drum that retains the fired casings. Some other cannons have feed chutes that the cases fall from.

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:16:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 4:17:10 PM EDT by Soljah46]
I see. on a helicopter i can see it would be easier to just drop all the casings as they fire. But on a jet, I would think there could be small possibility that a casing might fly back and hit the engine or something. Maybe if they were firing upside down or turning or something.

On a side note, about how many rounds of ammo (not including missles or bombs, etc.) can an average fighter jet hold?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:44:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 5:45:29 PM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By Soljah46:
I see. on a helicopter i can see it would be easier to just drop all the casings as they fire. But on a jet, I would think there could be small possibility that a casing might fly back and hit the engine or something. Maybe if they were firing upside down or turning or something.



I read that the A-10 retains the cases to prevent them from possibly hitting friendly troops on the ground.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:00:00 PM EDT
WWII planes just dumped them.

The A-10 carries 1100 rounds of ammo for the 30mm, in a 4:1 mix of API (Armor piercing incendiary, DU rounds) to HEI (high explosive incendiary).

The F-16 carries 500 rounds for the 20mm M61A1, the F-18 carries 520 rounds for the same gun.

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:11:27 PM EDT
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:22:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2A373:
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm



6000 rounds per minute.

100 rounds a second, ammo load of 450 rounds. 4.5 seconds of trigger time...ain't enough for me!!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:24:36 PM EDT
Ya fighters don't expend their casings outside the jet. They are kept internally. In the viper (and other jets) everytime the trigger is pulled and released, the gun clears it's self so 6-9 live shells are cleared with the spent casings on every burst. Just a little trivia:)
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:28:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cavu:

Originally Posted By 2A373:
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm



6000 rounds per minute.

100 rounds a second, ammo load of 450 rounds. 4.5 seconds of trigger time...ain't enough for me!!



no it's not
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:29:26 PM EDT
Awsome game, have you beat it yet?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:41:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cavu:

Originally Posted By 2A373:
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm



6000 rounds per minute.

100 rounds a second, ammo load of 450 rounds. 4.5 seconds of trigger time...ain't enough for me!!



The gun in a Strike Eagle is very rarely used.

Here's the type of stuff that it uses most.




Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:47:11 PM EDT
Find yourself a Vietnam War video that shows F-4 Phantoms making straffing runs. All the F-4's prior to the E model had no internal guns. Instead, they mounted a centerline gun underneath them. They looked like an external fuel tank but were basically just a 20mm gun in a special housing. When they fired you could see a stream of casings falling out underneath. Pretty cool. I think these weren't very useful for dogfighting, but they made a tossed green salad out of jungle. Plus, the "burring" sound of the gun firing sure sounded cool.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 1:44:23 AM EDT
thanks guys. I learned a lot today.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:02:18 AM EDT
Here's some more to learn:

Many aircarft get rid of them, simply because you don't really benefit much from carrying empty cases.

P-51, F-80, etc all got rid of the brass.

Helicopters habitually ditch the empties, as power is a premium, and no useless weight is really wanted.

While empties may be a hazard to ground troops, they are certainly not as much of a hazard as shooting so close to them that they'd bet hit by the empties is in the first place. If you're that close, they have more to worry about than empty brass. Some F-80's shot CAS gun runs on Chinese close enough to hit our guys with brass from the .50s. In Somalia, Rangers were pelted by brass from the mini-guns of the 160th (it's even protrayed in one scene in the Blackhawk Down movie. It really happened.) They were going after targets that are on the other side (not end, but SIDE) of the street from friendlies. When you're getting hit by your air support's spent cases, you're way closer than danger close.

Some aircraft and gun pods retain the spent cases so they don't change CG as much as they shoot, which changes the way the aircraft handles. The A-10 keeps them for this reason. Retaining the weight of the empties helps offset the loss of the projectiles and propellant. There was an experimental gun pod that used the same 30mm gun, though it had fewer barrels, that was pitched back in the early 80's. The idea was to mount them on the centerline of whatever the buyer's ari force had (F-4's, F-16's, F-5's, Mirage, A-4, etc) and have an ad hoc A-10. It also retained the empties for CG reasons.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:34:44 AM EDT
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:50:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:10:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark



Foreign Object Damage: It's a prevention program to eliminate the ingestion of damaging debris by aircraft engines...this picture ISN'T a photoshop job....imagine if there were some loose stones, trash, whatever, in front of that engine's intake....



Turboprop aircraft, like C-130s and P-3s aren't immune to FOD. although the hazard is more likely to be to things behind the wings, when the debris is picked up and thrown.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:10:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark



Foriegn Object Damage


Basically shit flying into the engine. Turbines don't like eating things.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:11:47 AM EDT
Doh, beat by 1 frikkin second.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:13:14 AM EDT
Foreign Object Damage

www.fodnews.com/

Aviator
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:39:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 6:40:30 AM EDT by bmick325]

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By Cavu:

Originally Posted By 2A373:
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm



6000 rounds per minute.

100 rounds a second, ammo load of 450 rounds. 4.5 seconds of trigger time...ain't enough for me!!



The gun in a Strike Eagle is very rarely used.

Here's the type of stuff that it uses most.

img273.imageshack.us/img273/39/030805f7709a004custom6ux.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/1559/f15eagm130custom2fh.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/1320/f15mk84jdam020507094nr.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/536/worldofhurt2iu.gif



There used to be some serious problems with the gun on the F-15E's. I was told it chewed up 20mm rounds and caused stoppages to the point that crews shied away from using it.

They ever get that fixed?

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:32:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 7:32:52 AM EDT by Beltfedleadhead]

Originally Posted By bmick325:

Originally Posted By 2A373:

Originally Posted By Cavu:

Originally Posted By 2A373:
The empty cases from the M61 gun are feed back into the ammo drum. Here's a link that gives some good info on the gun system used by the F-15E.

www.f-15estrikeeagle.com/weapons/m61a1/gun.htm



6000 rounds per minute.

100 rounds a second, ammo load of 450 rounds. 4.5 seconds of trigger time...ain't enough for me!!



The gun in a Strike Eagle is very rarely used.

Here's the type of stuff that it uses most.

img273.imageshack.us/img273/39/030805f7709a004custom6ux.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/1559/f15eagm130custom2fh.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/1320/f15mk84jdam020507094nr.jpg
img273.imageshack.us/img273/536/worldofhurt2iu.gif



There used to be some serious problems with the gun on the F-15E's. I was told it chewed up 20mm rounds and caused stoppages to the point that crews shied away from using it.

They ever get that fixed?





No, the gun system is still a joke on F-15s. I worked in USAF Crash Recovery for several years, and I can't COUNT the number of jammed gun In Flight Emergencies I responded to. However, A-10s and F-16s aren't immune either. In the desert, I once towed an A-10 off the runway so other planes could land...With the jammed 30mm GAU-8 gun pointed at me. I was avoiding ALL the bumps!

I do however have a 20mm casing from an F-15E that strafed a bridge in Afghanistan. Supposedly it was the first time an E-model used its gun against a ground target...That's what I was told, anyhow.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:15:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunnyG:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark



Foreign Object Damage: It's a prevention program to eliminate the ingestion of damaging debris by aircraft engines...this picture ISN'T a photoshop job....imagine if there were some loose stones, trash, whatever, in front of that engine's intake....

www.fodnews.com/pics/c17vortexcrsm.jpg

Turboprop aircraft, like C-130s and P-3s aren't immune to FOD. although the hazard is more likely to be to things behind the wings, when the debris is picked up and thrown.



Thanks
Mark
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:16:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark



Foriegn Object Damage


Basically shit flying into the engine. Turbines don't like eating things.



Thank you too

Mark
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 11:39:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunnyG:
Foreign Object Damage: It's a prevention program to eliminate the ingestion of damaging debris by aircraft engines...this picture ISN'T a photoshop job....imagine if there were some loose stones, trash, whatever, in front of that engine's intake....

www.fodnews.com/pics/c17vortexcrsm.jpg

Turboprop aircraft, like C-130s and P-3s aren't immune to FOD. although the hazard is more likely to be to things behind the wings, when the debris is picked up and thrown.

Is that smoke or water being drawn into the engine?

Kharn
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 11:44:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kharn:

Originally Posted By GunnyG:
Foreign Object Damage: It's a prevention program to eliminate the ingestion of damaging debris by aircraft engines...this picture ISN'T a photoshop job....imagine if there were some loose stones, trash, whatever, in front of that engine's intake....

www.fodnews.com/pics/c17vortexcrsm.jpg

Turboprop aircraft, like C-130s and P-3s aren't immune to FOD. although the hazard is more likely to be to things behind the wings, when the debris is picked up and thrown.

Is that smoke or water being drawn into the engine?

Kharn



Water

It looks very cool when being sucked into an F-16 intake.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
[


No, the gun system is still a joke on F-15s. I worked in USAF Crash Recovery for several years, and I can't COUNT the number of jammed gun In Flight Emergencies I responded to. However, A-10s and F-16s aren't immune either. In the desert, I once towed an A-10 off the runway so other planes could land...With the jammed 30mm GAU-8 gun pointed at me. I was avoiding ALL the bumps!

I do however have a 20mm casing from an F-15E that strafed a bridge in Afghanistan. Supposedly it was the first time an E-model used its gun against a ground target...That's what I was told, anyhow.



First use of an F-15E gun against a ground target was during Operation Anaconda (I think it was actually on Roberts Ridge), by then-Maj Christopher Short (son of General Short, the Joint Forces Air Component Commander during Bosnia/Kosovo). I was there when they read the citation for the Silver Star he got during that flight.

The thing to remember is that an F-15's cannon is angled UP for air-to-air engagements, while an A-10's cannon is angled DOWN to allow aiming at the ground without flying into it. So, the good Maj Short had to not only take into account speed and angle of attack, but he was also doing some Kentucky windage to account for the up-angle on the cannon.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By streetfighter:

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
OOOOHHHHH!

A question that finally bears the need for a genuine US Navy Aviation Ordnancemen, that would be me!

But everyone already answered above. The M61A1 20mm cannon retains the spent casings. They would be a FOD hazzard.



What is FOD?

Mark



This is an extreme example of FOD..

The guy lived--his shoulder got hung up in a strut in the intake and the pilot shut it down before he could get sucked in any farther (I've seen the complete video. He appears about thirty seconds after the engine grenades, and even though it's a thermal image you can see everyone on the flight deck look at him like, " Where did YOU come from?")
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