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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 10/4/2007 9:26:03 PM EST
This sunday I'm going out with our sniper/rifle instructor to qualify with my personal AR to carry with me. I'm a reserve deputy for the county I work in the jail for. I'm curious if anyone believes that a vertical foregrip has any place on a patrol style rifle system? I like it when I'm doing frequent short distance shooting such as would be expected with clearing the room of a house. Although, it does get in the way when it comes to resting the rifle on something (like the hood of a car, etc). Would you, or do you carry a rifle with a vertical foregrip?
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 3:59:55 AM EST
Mine has a vertical foregrip on it, but mine folds up which makes it really nice to rest on the hood or what have you. The one I have is the CAA TDI FFG2. It works for me.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 5:00:49 AM EST
Without a doubt, yes.

It shouldn't get in your way because you should never shoot over cover anyway, instead always around cover.

If your dept training includes it try performing weapon retention with and without a vert grip. I guarantee you'll favor the vert grip after a few of these excersizes.

Besides, if you find out its not for you simply remove it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 10:38:42 AM EST
We had VFG's on our Steyr AUG's. They were originally foldable , but everybody always used them so they were pinned down. i adapted to them very quickly and favour them over a conventional rifle hold or a 'mag well' hold, especially for CQB type work.We now have G36C's with no VFG. Don't like it as much (crap gun too).

Try this test. No gun involved. Stand up and take up a fighting stance with your fists raised in front of you and the majority of people will find their hands in a natural position to hold a pistol grip and a VFG. That's why it feels so natural.
Link Posted: 10/5/2007 11:47:22 AM EST
not a cop but I love em, it also tucks your non firing arm in towards your body in a much more natural position.

One thing I have seen is that under stress people tend to torque the pistol grip one direction and the vertical grip the opposite direction. I have never tested it but i am assuming this has some effect on accuracy.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 12:33:13 PM EST
I am a big fan of the grip. I like the control and comfort for CQB, it just feels and points naturally.

One thing I think would be advantagous to look into is the grip pod. They combine the foregrip with a built in spring loaded bi-pod. This allows a rifle to go from CQB to medium range prone or vice versa very quickly. Even if you would almost never use the bi-pod, it is a good vertical grip and if you ever have the need to go prone you have a fast, functional bi-pod that is the perfect height for a 30 round mag. If you never use it, the bi-pod is out of the way and will not get hung up on things like a typical Harris style will.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:15:25 PM EST
I've got a tango down but I took it off because I didn't think I liked it. Although I found myself trying to hold onto the mag well much the same I would with the grip on. I think I'm going to put it back on, using some of the feedback received here. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:40:24 PM EST
I do not use one nor do I advocate using one when I do teach. I am not totally against their use, just not my preference nor something I want to teach for an inexperienced or novice shooter. They should learn proper rifle fundamentals first and foremost. However for an experienced or advanced shooter, I leave the choice up to them. IMO a VFG is not necessarily a bad thing. I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to use it and again IMO about 98% of the people who have them use it the wrong way.
Link Posted: 10/6/2007 2:50:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
I do not use one nor do I advocate using one when I do teach. I am not totally against their use, just not my preference nor something I want to teach for an inexperienced or novice shooter. They should learn proper rifle fundamentals first and foremost. However for an experienced or advanced shooter, I leave the choice up to them. IMO a VFG is not necessarily a bad thing. I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to use it and again IMO about 98% of the people who have them use it the wrong way.


Please explain.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:23:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By warpig8654:

Originally Posted By SSDSurf:
I do not use one nor do I advocate using one when I do teach. I am not totally against their use, just not my preference nor something I want to teach for an inexperienced or novice shooter. They should learn proper rifle fundamentals first and foremost. However for an experienced or advanced shooter, I leave the choice up to them. IMO a VFG is not necessarily a bad thing. I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to use it and again IMO about 98% of the people who have them use it the wrong way.


Please explain.


I would genuinely be interested in this too, not trying to be contraversial.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 9:54:11 AM EST
I know this can easily become a heated topic as some people are huge fans of the VFG, especially ex military guys who used them extensively and they have a good argument when it comes to a military perspective when they are humping the weapon for days on end. I also want to say that I am not against them at all and leave it up to the individual as a personal choice. If I teach a basic class or beginners, I prefer that they aren't used. Advanced tactical courses I could care less and I will even offer my preferred method on how they should be used. Many guys who are very experienced adapt and use them well.

Having said that, a novice should learn proper rifle mechanics, such as using the support hand, as just a support hand. The support hand should not be used to pull the weapon into the shoulder. It should only support the weapon and act as an index for a natural point of aim. Firing on F/A is another story when controlling recoil and I will the weapon into my shoulder using my support hand, so in this instance a VFG can be a plus.

On a proper thumbs forward technique with a pistol the thumbs point towards the target. A person has the ability to take their finger, point at something and be pretty much right on target, even when pointing with the thumb. For the pistol the thumbs forward helps to automatically get the muzzle in alignment with the target for quicker acquisition.

Now equate this to the rifle. This theory is widely taught in skeet or trap shooting also. On a rifle without a VFG, support the rifle from the bottom of the foregrip and index the pointer finger down the length of the weapon, in line with the barrel. This develops a solid natural point of aim. When you bring the weapon up on target the finger pointing in line with the muzzle will get you there quicker and with more consistency. The support hand should do just that, support the weapon and preferably not create any other unnecessary muscle tension or side to side or forward to rear pressure.

A VFG tends to make a shooter throw out basic fundamentals. When you have a grip, our natural reaction is to squeeze it. Causing tension. The other natural reaction is to use it as a lever to pull the weapon into our shoulder to help fight recoil or muzzle rise, which can be a bad thing (unless shooting F/A as explained above). A pistol should be gripped properly and your stance should also help to counter recoil but there will be a natural rise of the muzzle and you want the weapon to return to your neutral or natural point of aim. The same concept applies to a rifle but because of the mechanics, recoil etc, many people tend to ignore or throw out basic fundamentals that apply to both handguns and long guns. This can be even more prominent with people who use a VFG.

This is the way I prefer to see a persons grip while using a VFG. I like it even more when the index finger is on the foregrip and not the VFG. If you notice in the picture the thumb is indexed forward towards the target maintaining a natural point of aim like a thumbs forward grip on a pistol.



The above guy is Tulsa Police SGT Brian Hill. SWAT and firearms instructor. Also an instructor with the United States Shooting Academy (USSA).

As mentioned, I am not a hater or against a VFG and I don't want to cause a stir with anyone. It is a personal preference. If I were humping a rifle in the desert for hours on end day after day, I would probably chose to use one also.

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:26:22 PM EST
I put it back on, qualified with a 98%, can't complain I suppose.
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