[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Obamacare - No Exit (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/23/2009 7:10:04 AM EDT
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http://www.aei.org/article/101449 Articles & Commentary Obamacare No Exit By Scott Gottlieb New York Post Monday, December 21, 2009
Perhaps the most common question I'm asked about ObamaCare is: "Will I be able to buy my way out of it?" The answer is: "Not unless you're very rich." The plan before the Senate creates a set of 50 state-based insurance "exchanges" that are established as markets for health plans. Consumers must buy policies from their employers or through the exchanges––but, either way, their choice of coverage is limited to one of four basic insurance plans that the government sanctions. Private insurers will still compete to offer policies but must model their coverage on one of these four templates. In short, the Senate bill explicitly standardizes health benefits and then establishes elaborate mechanisms (including subsidies and penalties) to pay for them. In short, beneficiaries are trapped inside the Medicare insurance scheme, just as they'll soon be trapped inside the ObamaCare exchanges. Here's the rub: While these four plans vary from low- to high-cost options, the benefits offered under them are pretty much the same. The difference between the cheaper and pricier plans is mostly the amount of cost sharing (e.g., you pay less for insurance if your co-pays are higher). In effect, the plan creates a single national health-insurance policy. Consumers' only real option is to trade higher co-pays for lower premiums. But we'll all get the same package of benefits established by a series of new agencies and an "insurance czar" seated in Washington. Once the exchanges are in place, the individual market––the ability to go directly to an insurer and buy a health-care policy––will disappear. You'll have only two places to buy insurance, in the exchanges or through your workplace. As for health plans offered by employers, "no health-insurance policies could be issued (other than grandfathered plans) that don't meet the actuarial standards set for these plans" sold in the exchanges. The government will "define the essential health benefits" that all plans must eventually offer, not only those sold in the exchanges but also plans offered by employers. But like other elements of today's private coverage, the grandfathered plans also disappear in short time. While the bill allows some employer plans to continue as they are today, that's only so long as the policy doesn't change––and natural market forces will ensure that most such policies must change within a few years after the bill becomes law. All of which brings us to the question of whether you'll be able to spend extra money to add benefits that exceed the government's basic package or opt out of that plan entirely. The bill doesn't address this question directly––yet I can say with great confidence that it will be costly and in some cases impossible. The bill leaves these issues in the hands of the bureaucracies that will write the law's enabling regulations. And it's clear both what the spirit of the Obama plan and the habits of these bureaucracies will produce. The overriding goal of this reform is to turn health insurance into a more "egalitarian" benefit that's the same for everyone, regardless of income, personal preference or need. So rules written under President Obama to implement the Obama plan are a sure bet to intentionally curtail anyone's ability to wrap around this national coverage with a supplemental policy or to contract privately with doctors to pay your way out of its limitations. This is exactly what the bureaucracy's done with Medicare. Doctors accepting Medicare can't contract privately with Medicare patients to bill for services that Medicare doesn't cover. Nor can patients buy added coverage to help plug Medicare's gaps. (The "Medigap" that many seniors now buy are tightly regulated by the government to limit how much they expand on Medicare's basic benefits; they mostly just help defray co-pays.) In short, beneficiaries are trapped inside the Medicare insurance scheme, just as they'll soon be trapped inside the ObamaCare exchanges. Doctors can't offer benefits not covered by the government plans, and patients can't buy extra insurance to make up for many gaps. These restrictions were designed into Medicare for a reason: Progressives don't want it to be easy for rich seniors to buy their out; they fear that if the well-off can leave the federal plan, it will become a lower-end benefit. That is, it will wind up like Medicaid, whose enormous problems are largely ignored by politicians because poor Americans don't have the political power to force improvements. The very rich, of course, will be able to buy their way out of ObamaCare. Many of the best doctors will go cash only, opting entirely out of the Obama program, to cater to a wealthy clientele. But only the truly affluent will have the cash to escape. The vast rest of us will be locked inside the new system––stuck with the same collection of government-decreed medical benefits. Scott Gottlieb, M.D., is a resident fellow at AEI. |
So....let me get this straight. Obama campaigns on the platform of "healthcare for everyone". The bill simply FORCES everyone to buy healthcare, so he fulfills his campaign pledge of healthcare for everyone. The way for him to fulfill his pledge is to FORCE everyone to spend money (Isn't that called a tax??). Right.... I think I got it now.  I could campaign on "houses for everyone" and then force everyone to buy a house, under penalty of jail. Problem solved. |
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So....let me get this straight. Obama campaigns on the platform of "healthcare for everyone". The bill simply FORCES everyone to buy healthcare, so he fulfills his campaign pledge of healthcare for everyone. The way for him to fulfill his pledge is to FORCE everyone to spend money (Isn't that called a tax??). Right.... I think I got it now.
I could campaign on "houses for everyone" and then force everyone to buy a house, under penalty of jail. Problem solved. That's what fucking Romney did in Ma. |
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Hey, I don't mean to highjack this thread but I am wondering if anyone can answer this Obamacare question and I didn't want to start a new thread:
I have a good friend who just graduated college and currently has no health insurance. He is currently taking a year between college and grad school and he is working for a year. My friends parents are extremely hard working but they don't have high paying jobs and they had to drop him off of there coverage due to lack of money. I know that he can't pay to get healthcare, and I know that his parents can't pay to get him healthcare... so what happens when he is forced to buy into healthcare? He has been working hard to get a job with health coverage but has not been able to get one yet. And neither him nor his parents would want to take any "obamacare handout" |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... |
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The first step towards creatng a state full of dependents. IT's not dependency, it is all about control health care with the Government is going to turn into bans tons of bans smoking ice cream potato chips, milk for anyone over 21 cookies, cakes pies etc caffeine cars swiming pools lawn mowers portable heaters ATV's pick up trucks less you have a special licence for business anything that effects the envrionment or the over all health of AmeriKa is gonna be BANNED, Taxed, Licenced, the ultimate Nanny state will be in place in 2 more generations... 
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Hey, I don't mean to highjack this thread but I am wondering if anyone can answer this Obamacare question and I didn't want to start a new thread: I have a good friend who just graduated college and currently has no health insurance. He is currently taking a year between college and grad school and he is working for a year. My friends parents are extremely hard working but they don't have high paying jobs and they had to drop him off of there coverage due to lack of money. I know that he can't pay to get healthcare, and I know that his parents can't pay to get him healthcare... so what happens when he is forced to buy into healthcare? He has been working hard to get a job with health coverage but has not been able to get one yet. And neither him nor his parents would want to take any "obamacare handout" it will be mandated he is carried on his parents policy until a minimum of age 25 Unless is is a full time studant working on a PHD then up to age 37 
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... 
(Can't think of anything to say at the moment that doesn't violate CoC.) ETA: But if you are advocating the OKC bombing as a viable method of political change, then I would like to be site staff for about 2 minutes. |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women...
(Can't think of anything to say at the moment that doesn't violate CoC.) ETA: But if you are advocating the OKC bombing as a viable method of political change, then I would like to be site staff for about 2 minutes. Well voting and writing our Congress critters is obviously working. 
Sorry... 2A doesn't say anything about hunting or target shooting. 
ETA: And the fact remains that he DID say he thought his act would begin a new American revolution AND nobody followed suit. [snip] tell me where I am wrong? 6.) Attacking or insulting a person in an effort to elicit a negative response. You have a right to disagree, but please do so in a respectful manner. - Paul Oh that's right... I'M NOT. 
ETA: There's a lot of folks on here talking shit about their view of the Constitutionality of this mess... do you think this will be resolved in the courts? Are you THAT naive?? It will be dealt with in grand fashion, or more likely, not at all... |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women...
(Can't think of anything to say at the moment that doesn't violate CoC.) ETA: But if you are advocating the OKC bombing as a viable method of political change, then I would like to be site staff for about 2 minutes. Well voting and writing our Congress critters is obviously working.
Sorry... 2A doesn't say anything about hunting or target shooting.
ETA: And the fact remains that he DID say he thought his act would begin a new American revolution AND nobody followed suit. [snip] Oh that's right... I'M NOT. What I read from your posts is that I have a sandy mangina because I won't support truck bombing federal buildings.
You want to fight an actual civil war or revolution - go ahead, I will be on one side or the other. But if you start conducting IRA style bombings against people just because they are federal employees, you are so far wrong that you aren't coming back. |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women...
(Can't think of anything to say at the moment that doesn't violate CoC.) ETA: But if you are advocating the OKC bombing as a viable method of political change, then I would like to be site staff for about 2 minutes. Well voting and writing our Congress critters is obviously working.
Sorry... 2A doesn't say anything about hunting or target shooting.
ETA: And the fact remains that he DID say he thought his act would begin a new American revolution AND nobody followed suit. [snip] Oh that's right... I'M NOT. What I read from your posts is that I have a sandy mangina because I won't support truck bombing federal buildings.
You want to fight an actual civil war or revolution - go ahead, I will be on one side or the other. But if you start conducting IRA style bombings against people just because they are federal employees, you are so far wrong that you aren't coming back. No, I do not want to fight in a civil war or revolution. But what I do want is my government to leave me the fuck alone. I pay my taxes, I obey laws that I am aware of, and I do not violently protest, YET, I am an enemy of the state. If you don't see anything wrong with that, you'll likely be on the other side.
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... Wow.
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Hey, I don't mean to highjack this thread but I am wondering if anyone can answer this Obamacare question and I didn't want to start a new thread: I have a good friend who just graduated college and currently has no health insurance. He is currently taking a year between college and grad school and he is working for a year. My friends parents are extremely hard working but they don't have high paying jobs and they had to drop him off of there coverage due to lack of money. I know that he can't pay to get healthcare, and I know that his parents can't pay to get him healthcare... so what happens when he is forced to buy into healthcare? He has been working hard to get a job with health coverage but has not been able to get one yet. And neither him nor his parents would want to take any "obamacare handout" hes going to have to use a good chunk of his earnings to buy healthcare he doesn't want or need. failing that, he will be fined tens of millions of americans are in this boat. |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... Dude.... Like...... WTF?
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Another good informative thread about the status of something important, turned into a wanna be ole North Bridge.
Some of you guys would have have popped a vessel if you were alive during the big government era of the '60s & 70s... Elections are on the horizon! A better use of your time and energy is stirring discontent with Obama & Crew, not looking like a nutjob. |
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http://www.aei.org/article/101449 Articles & Commentary
Obamacare No Exit By Scott Gottlieb New York Post Monday, December 21, 2009
Perhapsthe most common question I'm asked about ObamaCare is: "Will I be ableto buy my way out of it?" The answer is: "Not unless you're very rich."
Theplan before the Senate creates a set of 50 state-based insurance"exchanges" that are established as markets for health plans. Consumersmust buy policies from their employers or through the exchanges––but,either way, their choice of coverage is limited to one of four basicinsurance plans that the government sanctions.
Private insurerswill still compete to offer policies but must model their coverage onone of these four templates. In short, the Senate bill explicitlystandardizes health benefits and then establishes elaborate mechanisms(including subsidies and penalties) to pay for them.
Inshort, beneficiaries are trapped inside the Medicare insurance scheme,just as they'll soon be trapped inside the ObamaCare exchanges.
Here'sthe rub: While these four plans vary from low- to high-cost options,the benefits offered under them are pretty much the same. Thedifference between the cheaper and pricier plans is mostly the amountof cost sharing (e.g., you pay less for insurance if your co-pays arehigher).
In effect, the plan creates a single nationalhealth-insurance policy. Consumers' only real option is to trade higherco-pays for lower premiums. But we'll all get the same package ofbenefits established by a series of new agencies and an "insuranceczar" seated in Washington.
Once the exchanges are in place, theindividual market––the ability to go directly to an insurer and buy ahealth-care policy––will disappear. You'll have only two places to buyinsurance, in the exchanges or through your workplace.
As forhealth plans offered by employers, "no health-insurance policies couldbe issued (other than grandfathered plans) that don't meet theactuarial standards set for these plans" sold in the exchanges. Thegovernment will "define the essential health benefits" that all plansmust eventually offer, not only those sold in the exchanges but alsoplans offered by employers. But like other elements of today's privatecoverage, the grandfathered plans also disappear in short time. Whilethe bill allows some employer plans to continue as they are today,that's only so long as the policy doesn't change––and natural marketforces will ensure that most such policies must change within a fewyears after the bill becomes law.
All of which brings us to thequestion of whether you'll be able to spend extra money to add benefitsthat exceed the government's basic package or opt out of that planentirely. The bill doesn't address this question directly––yet I cansay with great confidence that it will be costly and in some casesimpossible.
The bill leaves these issues in the hands of thebureaucracies that will write the law's enabling regulations. And it'sclear both what the spirit of the Obama plan and the habits of thesebureaucracies will produce.
The overriding goal of this reformis to turn health insurance into a more "egalitarian" benefit that'sthe same for everyone, regardless of income, personal preference orneed. So rules written under President Obama to implement the Obamaplan are a sure bet to intentionally curtail anyone's ability to wraparound this national coverage with a supplemental policy or to contractprivately with doctors to pay your way out of its limitations.
Thisis exactly what the bureaucracy's done with Medicare. Doctors acceptingMedicare can't contract privately with Medicare patients to bill forservices that Medicare doesn't cover. Nor can patients buy addedcoverage to help plug Medicare's gaps. (The "Medigap" that many seniorsnow buy are tightly regulated by the government to limit how much theyexpand on Medicare's basic benefits; they mostly just help defrayco-pays.)
In short, beneficiaries are trapped inside theMedicare insurance scheme, just as they'll soon be trapped inside theObamaCare exchanges. Doctors can't offer benefits not covered by thegovernment plans, and patients can't buy extra insurance to make up formany gaps.
These restrictions were designed into Medicare for areason: Progressives don't want it to be easy for rich seniors to buytheir out; they fear that if the well-off can leave the federal plan,it will become a lower-end benefit. That is, it will wind up likeMedicaid, whose enormous problems are largely ignored by politiciansbecause poor Americans don't have the political power to forceimprovements.
The very rich, of course, will be able to buytheir way out of ObamaCare. Many of the best doctors will go cash only,opting entirely out of the Obama program, to cater to a wealthyclientele. But only the truly affluent will have the cash to escape.
The vast rest of us will be locked inside the new system––stuck with the same collection of government-decreed medical benefits.
Scott Gottlieb, M.D., is a resident fellow at AEI.
About what I expected. What a load of shit. |
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The very rich, of course, will be able to buy their way out of ObamaCare. Many of the best doctors will go cash only, opting entirely out of the Obama program, to cater to a wealthy clientele. But only the truly affluent will have the cash to escape.
I wonder if some could opt out and cater to Joe Blow off the street, cash only. With no hassling with the insurance companies / government drones a family doctor could possibly model this approach. Of course they'd have to have a transparent, published pricing arrangement and a method for any needed off-premise testing. And somewhere in the 2000+ page bill there may be something to spike this set up. |
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Hey, I don't mean to highjack this thread but I am wondering if anyone can answer this Obamacare question and I didn't want to start a new thread: I have a good friend who just graduated college and currently has no health insurance. He is currently taking a year between college and grad school and he is working for a year. My friends parents are extremely hard working but they don't have high paying jobs and they had to drop him off of there coverage due to lack of money. I know that he can't pay to get healthcare, and I know that his parents can't pay to get him healthcare... so what happens when he is forced to buy into healthcare? He has been working hard to get a job with health coverage but has not been able to get one yet. And neither him nor his parents would want to take any "obamacare handout" Hah! They won't even get a handout––-I got a small sense of satisfaction talking to a liberal acquaintance last weekend as he was going on and on about the healthcare bill. He was really pleased that it was passing and was gloating about it when i asked him what was in the thing. He didn't even know––thought it was free health care for everyone ala Britain's NHS, and when I explained to him that he would be required by law to buy the health insurance he currently lacks, under penalty of fine (and imprisonment if he doesn't pay up,) he got so mad at me it was hilarious. I pulled it up online to show him I wasn't lying, and he stormed out of the bar redfaced. |
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Wow. Never thought I would see someone out themselves. Revolution is through the ballot box, PERIOD. We still have our freedom of POLITICAL speech, for the most part. But the instant you think an action which encroaches on the Constitutional freedoms of others, then that action is destructive. |
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Another good informative thread about the status of something important, turned into a wanna be ole North Bridge. Some of you guys would have have popped a vessel if you were alive during the big government era of the '60s & 70s... Elections are on the horizon! A better use of your time and energy is stirring discontent with Obama & Crew, not looking like a nutjob. Well said! Fighting with the rival party only hurts you in the long run. Its best to show how they were wrong and let them try to prove you wrong. In the end, the truth is all that matters. Problem though! The truth is bent in so many ways by the media and politicians its hard to see it for what it really is. Too many people seem to think that just cause the media has the right to free speech that this free speech is the truth. If you truly want to know what is going on stop listening to right and left leaning people and dig up the information yourself. If you are letting others opinions change yours then you have no business voting. by the way I do not support this bill nor do i support Obama. I really didn't support Bush either, but hey at least i can feel safe in my own country now. Well that is until Obama and Congress thought it a good Idea to penalize me for being successful! |
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The very rich, of course, will be able to buy their way out of ObamaCare. Many of the best doctors will go cash only, opting entirely out of the Obama program, to cater to a wealthy clientele. But only the truly affluent will have the cash to escape.
I wonder if some could opt out and cater to Joe Blow off the street, cash only. With no hassling with the insurance companies / government drones a family doctor could possibly model this approach. Of course they'd have to have a transparent, published pricing arrangement and a method for any needed off-premise testing. And somewhere in the 2000+ page bill there may be something to spike this set up. There are actually doctors today who do this. See John Stossel's "Sick in America." The doctor who does that says his income is comparable to what he'd have if he had insurance and Medicare patients. If you don't take either of those, your bottom line is greatly improved as you don't need one or more people on staff who do nothing all day but submit insurance and government forms. |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... Dude.... Like...... WTF? What? He acted against what he saw as a tyrannical government. Ruby Ridge? Waco?? Are these footnotes in history? |
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Quoted: Wow. Never thought I would see someone out themselves. Revolution is through the ballot box, PERIOD. We still have our freedom of POLITICAL speech, for the most part. But the instant you think an action which encroaches on the Constitutional freedoms of others, then that action is destructive. If amnesty gets pushed through and millions of illegals become voters for the Democrats, is the ballot box still a viable option? Let's not forget the HIV travel ban that's being lifted in the very near future. I have a feeling there will be a huge influx of HIV+ immigrants making their way over here. Once over here, they just have to make their way over to an emergency room and say that they are HIV+ and need treatment. Then we are stuck paying for meds that can cost $2500/month. And if amnesty gets passed also, that's even more voters for the Democrats. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... Mcveigh WAS NOT a fucking patriot. A patriot DOES NOT blow up kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR FUCKS SAKE |
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Wow. Never thought I would see someone out themselves. Revolution is through the ballot box, PERIOD. We still have our freedom of POLITICAL speech, for the most part. But the instant you think an action which encroaches on the Constitutional freedoms of others, then that action is destructive. Fortunately, our founding fathers did not agree with you. |
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wheres the reset button for DC Everyone knows where it is but none have the balls to push it. I don't see you mashing the button either. That's because the last guy to push it got the needle in Terre Haute. And he stood alone... all the patriots were too busy buying baubles for their women... Mcveigh WAS NOT a fucking patriot. A patriot DOES NOT blow up kids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FOR FUCKS SAKE So American forces that participated in the fire bombing of Dresden were not patriots? The Americans that released atomic weapons on Japanese population centers were not patriots? Remember, McVeigh got the death penalty for killing FEDERAL AGENTS, not for killing innocent children. Perhaps you have higher morals than your government (very likely you do), |