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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/13/2001 7:57:44 AM EDT
Do any of you think that Oswald was a lone gunman in the killing of Kennedy. And is the Mannlicher Carcano a good rifle?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 8:54:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 8:48:23 AM EDT by DriftPunch]
Carcano's can indeed be great short-medium range rifles, but most that I have seen have been in poor condition. Unless you really, really want one, there are many better choices for an old battle rifle. The Lee Enfield is best in my opinion. I can't comment on JFK, cause I was born in '70 and haven't studied the issue much. If Oswald had a decent carcano, one that grouped well, it would have been just as effective as a Springfield '03. Since his carcano was scoped, I assume it was indeed up to par. Any doubt cast on the situation caused by the use of a carcano is misplaced.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 8:57:30 AM EDT
Actually, does anyone know if they did accuracy testing on that rifle. They have it, so it would seem to me that they could fairly easily prove it was up to the task.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:00:49 AM EDT
Watch the Zabruder film sometime and it is obvious to any gunowner that the fatal shot came from the grassy knoll. Who knows if there were multiple assassins. There were multiple (I mean alot) assassins present in Bosnia on the day the ArchDuke Ferdinand of Austro-Hungary was assassinated starting WWI.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:04:13 AM EDT
Make this into a poll! I vote for [size=4]Lone Gunman![/size=4] Eric The(AndI[u]Know[/u]I'mGonnaBeInTheMinorityForThis!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 9:11:40 AM EDT
I used to work with Joe Ball, look in the endpages of the Warren Commission Report, he was chief evidence counsel and wrote the chapters on Oswald acting alone and the rifle. He was a lifelong dyed in the wool liberal Democrat. He worshipped Kennedy and was a genius. No way he bought into any "bury it" philosophy. Oswald shot Kennedy. It was 3 hits over 6 seconds at a target 80-90 yards away moving about 5 mph straight away from the shooter. The timer doesn't start until the first shot is fired, he had all the time in the world to aim that one. I've seen a network film piece from the 60s where they built a tower to the height of the 6th floor, set up a track to pull targets at the same angle and speed, then handed several shooters the same type of "POS" Carcano and scope setup. I think 3 or 4 of 5 or 6 made 3 hits in the time allowed, one guy hit FOUR times. Don't tell me it can't be done, I saw it done several times. Ignore all the housewives who'd never heard a single gunshot before that day, sitting in a man made canyon, then burying their heads at the first shot and swearing they knew which way the shots came from. Yeah, right. Also, all the reports of "smoke" from the grassy knoll- what was THAT guy shooting, a muzzleloader? This is a pet peeve of mine, I've read the report, spoken at length to Joe Ball, and used my knowledge of firearms to discount that crap that passes for a "plausible" theory. The majic bullet was majical in only one respect: It travelled in an almost perfect STRAIGHT LINE. The bench seat Connelly was on was about 18" narrower than the one K was sitting on, therefore K's throat was in line with C's outboard shoulder. The throat shot that hit K went throught his necktie knot (I've seen that tie myself) went straight through C's shoulder, still travelling down, then through his hand on his leg and, surprise, on into his thigh. Wow, that's majic. And how is it "obvious" that the head shot came from the front? How many others have YOU seen? Explain what a massive disruption to the central nervous system does to the head/body. Also, Failure Analysis, a reputable company used to reconstruct accidents using computer modelling took the Zap film and modelled the motorcade, the plaza, and the trajectory of the hits. They plotted the trajectory backwards, and surprise, they plotted a circle of probablity that had the 6th floor window nearly in it's center. I have even more stuff on this, but I'm at work right now. Oswald shot Kennedy.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 10:00:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:22:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 11:22:59 AM EDT by Sodie]
I used to think that Oswald was at least one of two or three shooters until I saw this picture. Now I know that he was a patsy of a conspiracy. This picture backs up Oswalds original story that he was on the ground floor watching the parade during the shooting. [img]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/ALT_ANNOT.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/manindoorway.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/oswaldarrested.jpg[/img] Did you notice the [b]GIANT[/b] tree between Kennedy and the book depository?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:27:21 AM EDT
My God, Sodie! Have you brought this information to the attention of the authorites?! This is amazing! [whacko]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:31:04 AM EDT
Hey, [b]raf[/b], I read 'Case Closed' by Gerald Posner, as well! I just didn't want to mention it above cause it sounds too much like that thread I posted about 'USS Liberty: Case Closed' by Michael Oren, and I didn't want to get pilloried again! Eric The(YouKnow,'TheBurnedChildFearsTheFire'SortO­fThing)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:42:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 11:37:47 AM EDT by trickshot]
I like what John Ross said about Oswald. Something like, he would have had to have been the greatest rifle shooter with a brain tumor who ever lived. Why the brain tumor? Because you'd have to have one in order to be a great rifleman *and* select that piece of shit rifle to do the deed with. I thought the independent analysis of the audio tapes proved that the gunshots came from three different directions? Also, the story on the History Channel "The Men who Killed Kennedy" is that three French assasins fired four shots. They presented some remarkable, albeit not bulletproof evidence. Also, the guy who wrote the book about LBJ based on LBJ's telephone tapes made some astounding discoveries. I think LBJ was in on it and I think it was because Kennedy would not escalate the Viet Nam war. Politician as corporate shill is nothing new at all, see? Oh, and that photo looks doctored to me. Photos are not proof of anything anymore--remember the photo of Oswald holding the rifle? That one was faked.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:48:00 AM EDT
Boy, that early 60s newsprint really blows up clearly, no way that could be anybody but Oswald. That "Patsy" kept a journal setting forth his mail ordering of the murder weapon, use of a psuedonym to do so, extensive range practice, taking a shot at some high profile general through his study window, egress maps in his own hand, etc. Explain one thing: How could a "patsy" be such a willing accomplice? He OWNED that rifle, he kept it in somebody else's garage, was seen practicing at local ranges, went to that garage that day and carried out a long paper covered package to work in his car pool THAT DAY. (Curtain rods, wow, how convenient) The rifle was therafter GONE, becasue it was at his worksite. Nice of him to be so helpful. Why would he shoot Officer Tippet? That hardly supports his patsty claim, seems kind of trigger happy if you ask me. Oh, one final question for the conspiracy fans? How many men can keep a secret? After answering that, how many would HAVE to know about this master plan, I mean some "exposes" allege ALL the cops were disinterested in the "real" story, "X" number of shooters plus support, higher ups to approve it all, I mean the numbers are mind numbing. You think the same government that can't deliver the mail accurately despite a legal monopoly could pull this off?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:50:39 AM EDT
Well, we will all know the truth in about thirty years when the files are opened.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:51:54 AM EDT
My sister told me that one of the 3 bums they picked up was Woody Harrelson's dad. Any truth to that?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 11:54:09 AM EDT
Ahhh Ha!
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:00:30 PM EDT
Trickshot- Have you seriously watched the Men Who Killed Kennedy? Those guys showed a photo supposedly showing "badgeman", a guy in a cop's uniform, down to a badge, and showed it to some guy 35 years after the shooting, and he confirmed it was what he saw. Only then did they show the source photo before "enhancement." It was a frigging locket sized portion of a photo, very long range, and it showed NOTHING. Less than 1" sqaure, grainy black and white to begin with, I'm not sure it even showed a person, then some guy plugs it into his computer to "enhance it" and presto, they get what they want--TOTAL BS. And the only audiotape I'm aware of was a motor cop who keyed his mike, single mic, don't know if you could place the shots from that. Also, don't forget that they were in a man made canyon, shots would seriously echo. Have you ever tried to place a shot up against foothills? It's tough for me, I KNOW some housewife couldn't do it. Also, I saw one of these women interviewed in like 1990 swearing that she heard and SAW a gunman behind her on the knoll. Cut to footage of an interview with the same lady right after the shooting, she said she dove for cover, hid her head, and didn't know what the heck happenned. A guy on the 5th floor was watching the parade (so much for the giant tree in the way), right after the shooting he was interviewed and he said he heard 3 shots right above him and could even hear the shooter working the bolt. Kennedy WAS NOT GOING TO PULL OUT OF NAM. His speech he was going to give at the Trade Mart said he was going to escalate it, so much for O Stone's FALSE premise to his bullshit revisionist history.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:01:24 PM EDT
That picture is not a newprint, it is a full color photograph and is part of the official evidence. All of the people in the photo were identified by the Warren Commission. Except for the man in the orange/brown shirt. I say brown shirt over white because he was misidentified as Bill Lovelady. The Bill was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt that day. In the color version of the photo, that man is clearly wearing an orange/brown sweater over a white T-shirt. [url]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/postphotos.html[/url] Most of the stuff on this webpage is theory, but you can't deny official Warren Commision photographs.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:03:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2001 11:59:17 AM EDT by CITADELGRAD87]
I'm NOT denying that it IS a photograph, I'm denying that you can blow it up like that to prove that's ANYBODY. Edited to add: That site is full of holes. You said the Warren Commmision identified that guy as Lovelady. The guy, "Lovelady" IDENTIFIED HIMSELF in the photo, but claimed to be wearing a different shirt that day. Have you ever looked at a picture and said that's ME when it wasn't? Come on. Also, what were YOU wearing when you heard the World Trade Centers were attacked?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:08:21 PM EDT
[b]Trickshot[/b], I see you've bought into the Oliver Stone version of Kennedy as a beautiful man who was killed because he was reluctant to engage in the Vietnam War as much as the military industrial complex wanted. Trust me, there was no greater Cold Warrior than Jack Kennedy! And where does that leave the poor Diem Brothers? They were purposefully executed by the Vietnamese Generals and JFK knew about it beforehand and could have stopped it, but didn't! Even one word of discouragement of the foul deed by JFK would have spared the Diem Brothers' lives! But no such word was ever forthcoming, 'cause Kennedy didn't want to give the Republicans an issue for the upcoming '64 election. Who can ever forget Madam Nhu, the 'Dragon Lady' (and sister-in-law of Diems) arriving at the San Francisco Airport in December, 1963, and asking the reporters what Mrs. Kennedy must feel like now that [b]her[/b] husband had been murdered too! Not a very pleasant time in our Country's history, let me tell you! Eric The(CondemnedToRememberHistory)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:22:41 PM EDT
I once owned a "Kennedy Killer"-type Carcano. Anybody who tells you that the mannlicher-Carcano rifle is a piece of crap is either basing that opinion on a badly cared for specimen, a late war production example, or has an agenda to advance re: the Kennedy assassination. My particular Carcano, that I owned during the 70's when I went through a brief period of infatuation with WWII bolt rifles was in excellent condition. It compared well with the Lee-Enfields and Mausers that I owned; which is to say that it was a typical military bolt rifle. The cartridge it used was a bit less powerful than the .303 or the 8mm Mauser, but at the range involved in the assassination that is of no consequence. The only real criticism I had of the rifle was that ammunition was scarce and expensive. The only readily available source was from Norma and it was pretty spendy stuff. Of all those rifles, I regret letting the Carcano go the most. Have had lots of opportunities to buy SMLE's, Mausers, Radoms, etc, but I don't see Carcanos (especially nice ones) around much anymore.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:27:49 PM EDT
Does anybody know when Oswald started working at the school book depository and how he got a job at that particular place? That alone seems like awfully big godamn coinsidence.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:38:40 PM EDT
IMHO three fire teams, one ground commander and a patsy who believed the Texas Theater was the real rally point.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 12:38:52 PM EDT
You guys are so far off it isn't even funny! Imbroglio did it. [:)] Tyler
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:28:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By blackrifle51: Do any of you think that Oswald was a lone gunman in the killing of Kennedy. And is the Mannlicher Carcano a good rifle?
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I see that you are in Texas. Are you anywhere near Dallas? The Book Depository where Oswald was holed up is now called the Sixth Floor Museum [url]http://www.jfk.org/Home.htm[/url]. Go see it, I was there a few years ago, lots of interesting stuff. Check the museum's website. There is a webcam that shows you what Oswald saw thru that window where he shot Kennedy[url]http://www.jfk.org/Web_Cam_Redirect.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:29:32 PM EDT
Of course he did not act alone.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:37:34 PM EDT
AR50Troll Would it be too much trouble for you to use more than SEVEN WORDS to solve this would-be "mystery" for those of us who are less informed than you? I don't know, perhaps, I guess, I'm looking for maybe some FACT supporting that rank conclusion. Let's just not start with the assumption that anyone with a brain cell agrees with "X" proposition, OK?
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:38:45 PM EDT
I think I will join the ranks of the conspiracy theorist out there. A couple of weeks ago I went to the book depository and took the tour. Although the corner window is encased in glass, I looked at the vantage point from the window next to it. The angle is somewhat diagonal and the car was moving away. He was about 60ft up shooting at a target moving diagonally away from him. With a bolt action. And a small tree that I believe may have obstructed his view a bit. I say no he did not do it.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 2:40:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:09:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: I once owned a "Kennedy Killer"-type Carcano. Anybody who tells you that the mannlicher-Carcano rifle is a piece of crap is either basing that opinion on a badly cared for specimen, a late war production example, or has an agenda to advance re: the Kennedy assassination. My particular Carcano, that I owned during the 70's when I went through a brief period of infatuation with WWII bolt rifles was in excellent condition. It compared well with the Lee-Enfields and Mausers that I owned; which is to say that it was a typical military bolt rifle. The cartridge it used was a bit less powerful than the .303 or the 8mm Mauser, but at the range involved in the assassination that is of no consequence. The only real criticism I had of the rifle was that ammunition was scarce and expensive. The only readily available source was from Norma and it was pretty spendy stuff. Of all those rifles, I regret letting the Carcano go the most. Have had lots of opportunities to buy SMLE's, Mausers, Radoms, etc, but I don't see Carcanos (especially nice ones) around much anymore.
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I am probably wrong, but I thought the Carcano was chambered in 6.5X55 Swedish. Kyle
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:21:22 PM EDT
What causes me constipation about the governments account of what happened that day in Dallas If oswald did it alone as the gobment says, why is it necessary to still withhold information about the assassination for thirty more years.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:41:58 PM EDT
That Carcano was chambered in 6.5x52mm Carcano. Not a little but a lot less powerfull than a 8mmm or .303. or even a 6.5 swedish. It shoots a 162 grain slug at 2000 to 2100fps. And that magical Carcano seems to add copper fragments when fired, the 162 grain near perfect slug they found lying on the stretcher plus the fragments in the governors arm add up to a lot more than 162 grains. How do they know what kind of bullets were used? A partially used box of 162 grain 6.5 carcano was sitting right there next to the rifle along with prefired casings. And where was I during the World Trade Center attack? I was kicking it with my best friend Lee on the 6th floor. And after admiring his snazzy outfit and sharp haircut, I immediately realized that I looked like a giant fag in my red, white and blue plaid striped shirt and ran home and changed into the exact same clothing and receeding haircut to match my bestest buddy LHO. [:E]
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:57:00 PM EDT
I have a friend at work (At the time He was a Marine on leave) that was there in Dallas when it happened; A few weeks after it happened he and a few buddies checked out the location & they all agreed "It was an Easy Shot" that any Marine marksman could make! My Vote Lone gunman!
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 3:59:26 PM EDT
i love this topic. here's a new twist for ya: some guy named Hickey (i think that's right) with an [i]AR-15[/i] fired the 2nd (or was it third) shot that hit Kennedy's head from the Secret Service follow-up car. read the book [i]Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK[/i] the above are the conclusions of the author. i don't remember the author's name and can't check cuz my books are all packed up for the move. but said author set out to prove Warren Commission was right and ended up supporting only some of the conclusions (magic bullet wasn't magic because it didn't need to turn, previous statements to this are correct, great pics of this in the book BTW). he used ballistics, physics, and geometry only to come to his conclusions. it's been a while since i've read it, and i'll admit to knowing far more now about this kind of stuff than i did then, but i don't remember anything that stuck out as blatantly silly. i probably have more books on the topic than anyone else here. a small passion of mine. and there are a few "coincidences" that leave one wondering. first, oswald "defects" to USSR, attempts to renounce citizenship, but never does. finds work (well, work was found for him), home (same for the residence), and girlfriend (probably did this on his own) and lives a typically anonymous life. how odd for an American CITIZEN to do this in USSR. second, returns to U.S., paid for by U.S., little to no debriefing, and walks right back in to civilian life. third, U2 spy plane shot down shortly after Oswald's entrance to USSR. Oswald is known to have been based where planes were located. no previous threats from soviets regarding planes. little evidence they knew the planes were flying. fourth, oswald's actions the day before and the day of the shooting are extremely out of the routine. what does all this mean???? hell if i know, but if ever there was a case of "thing that make you go hmmmmm" this would be it.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 4:22:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sodie: That Carcano was chambered in 6.5x52mm Carcano. Not a little but a lot less powerfull than a 8mmm or .303. or even a 6.5 swedish. It shoots a 162 grain slug at 2000 to 2100fps. And that magical Carcano seems to add copper fragments when fired, the 162 grain near perfect slug they found lying on the stretcher plus the fragments in the governors arm add up to a lot more than 162 grains. How do they know what kind of bullets were used? A partially used box of 162 grain 6.5 carcano was sitting right there next to the rifle along with prefired casings. And where was I during the World Trade Center attack? I was kicking it with my best friend Lee on the 6th floor. And after admiring his snazzy outfit and sharp haircut, I immediately realized that I looked like a giant fag in my red, white and blue plaid striped shirt and ran home and changed into the exact same clothing and receeding haircut to match my bestest buddy LHO. [:E]
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At the CCRA gun club meeting, one of the members brought his unfired carcano that was imported in the same batch with Oswalds, he had the order slip from the distributor to prove it. (It just killed me, it was $15 shipped to his home). Well anyways, he said at the time there were only two available rounds for the carcano, surplus and winchester. The common surplus at the time was steel cored FMJ (ie, unlikely to fragment), and the Winchester was SP. He quoted some evidence that Oswald had purchased both types. Also they stated that multiple tests were conducted to see who could make those shots. Here is what they think they proved: The shooter was left handed, and left eye dominant (they know he was LH, and they had video of him walking which apparently can reveal eye dominance) Also, his first shot was a miss, through the scope ( a piece of japanese shit), the next shots were open sights (Much quicker, and more accurate since the scope mount is mounted on the side of the receiver, and not well aligned with the bore) Also,The gun was fired using the sill as a rest and his right hand operating the bolt, so his left never left the trigger (Its much quicker, and there are notches on the forearm of the rifle where it appears to have suffered some recoil) So, if thats how he did it, it is plenty possible.
Link Posted: 11/13/2001 5:17:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARlady: read the book [i]Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK[/i]
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Bingo! I've read a few things on the subject and I even recorded all the episodes of [i]The Men Who Killed Kennedy[/i] and nothing has come close to the [b]Mortal Error[/b] book. I'm surprised [b]Mortal Error[/b] isn't a popular title on AR15.com figuring it doesn't even go into motivations, conspiracies, personalities or the like. It arrives at it's theories by using ballistics. I first came across the audio version...Then I liked it so much I went and read the full book: [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312080743/qid%3D1005702934/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-3903959-0341721[/url]
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