[ARCHIVED THREAD] - It has been five years. You have a chance to make a difference - right now. (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/2/2025 9:05:21 PM EDT
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Over the next week you can have a major impact on opportunities for yourself, your family, and your community. Not just the 2nd Amendment community, but your local community. Nominations are wanted for the national level Board of Directors for the American Pioneer Corps, as well as nominations for regional coordinators. If your immediate reaction is "oh, that is a bunch of crazy militia folks", you clearly haven't interacted with APC. That is ok though - because this is your chance to steer it toward becoming the organization you'd like to see in your community. If you are thinking, "Man, I did some stuff with them and I love APC!", then thank you for your prior participation and please consider helping APC move into the future. You have an opportunity to help determine the direction of this national level organization. You want an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid? That is APC. You want to see APC become something different than what it is now, whether it is softening or hardening itself as an organization? This is your opportunity to provide that direction. APC has been chugging along for five years, but it is time for some changes. Ten days to make nominations start now. Additionally, standby for a fundraiser to make sure they are setup to bring training and other opportunities to you. It has been an honor to serve on the Board of Directors these past five years. I hope you all can pass your thanks to the following folks for their time and efforts on the BoD as well: @rat_6 @Redbirdxx @freefallret Cheers, |
This is less about "you need to get out there and do stuff" (though you totally should) and more about some restructuring of leadership at a national level and developing and organizing better regional leadership. So while we value physical fitness, it's not the primary requirement for the roles we're trying to fill. Plenty of older, partially broken guys that might not be the peak of their game physically but might have a lot to offer on the training, planning and policy setting fronts. Young studs are also welcome in these roles.  So if you know that guy, or are that guy, reach out. Previous involvement with the organization is obviously a plus. |
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Sad bump. APC is one of the brightest spots in all of our nation right now. I managed to get 4 guys to do a single hike a couple years ago but I just couldn't generate the interest. -Brightest example I know of, of someone trying to do something good for our nation's future -Nobody's interested.  It sucks. I hope other states have better success and I wish some more people in TN were willing to get involved. |
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Quoted: You want an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid? That is APC. I don't think this is true, but would love to be proven wrong. For instance, I've got a Venturing Crew that did shooting sports until BSA decided that the way to fix people not following rules was to make more restrictive rules for those that do follow the rules. Even though the families involved would happily join another organization that would let the youth go back to shooting safely as they did for years before, there aren't many/any organizations that will provide an insurance umbrella for the leaders... at least with BSA if we follow their rules we're covered by their liability insurance. CMP, APC, and others don't seem to have that kind of protection. |
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Quoted: I don't think this is true, but would love to be proven wrong. For instance, I've got a Venturing Crew that did shooting sports until BSA decided that the way to fix people not following rules was to make more restrictive rules for those that do follow the rules. Even though the families involved would happily join another organization that would let the youth go back to shooting safely as they did for years before, there aren't many/any organizations that will provide an insurance umbrella for the leaders... at least with BSA if we follow their rules we're covered by their liability insurance. CMP, APC, and others don't seem to have that kind of protection. Quoted: Quoted: You want an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid? That is APC. I don't think this is true, but would love to be proven wrong. For instance, I've got a Venturing Crew that did shooting sports until BSA decided that the way to fix people not following rules was to make more restrictive rules for those that do follow the rules. Even though the families involved would happily join another organization that would let the youth go back to shooting safely as they did for years before, there aren't many/any organizations that will provide an insurance umbrella for the leaders... at least with BSA if we follow their rules we're covered by their liability insurance. CMP, APC, and others don't seem to have that kind of protection. APC has several million dollars of insurance covering all participants at our events, as well as hosts, instructors, etc. In fact, insurance is our largest single expenditure every year. So yes, we do have that sort of protection. |
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Quoted: Sad bump. APC is one of the brightest spots in all of our nation right now. I managed to get 4 guys to do a single hike a couple years ago but I just couldn't generate the interest. -Brightest example I know of, of someone trying to do something good for our nation's future -Nobody's interested. It sucks. I hope other states have better success and I wish some more people in TN were willing to get involved. I had a hard time getting any major interest in California, and then I got a job that made it infeasible to really lead something like this. Being in college now also makes it difficult. But I wonder if I can do this through the university clubs. Hmmm... |
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Bump for the morning crew While you are drinking that sweet, sweet coffee, just think how awesome it would be to be drinking it with like minded people, going over the fun you had yesterday learning new skills, and talking about how excited you are for the new ones you’re going to learn today |
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Quoted: I don't think this is true, but would love to be proven wrong. For instance, I've got a Venturing Crew that did shooting sports until BSA decided that the way to fix people not following rules was to make more restrictive rules for those that do follow the rules. Even though the families involved would happily join another organization that would let the youth go back to shooting safely as they did for years before, there aren't many/any organizations that will provide an insurance umbrella for the leaders... at least with BSA if we follow their rules we're covered by their liability insurance. CMP, APC, and others don't seem to have that kind of protection. Buy yourself a $1-5m umbrella liability policy and do what you want. Mine is for $1M and costs less than $200/year. I bought it in 2017 and pay that amount yearly and it covers the shooting events I organize including Cola Warrior. Problem solved. ETA: according to Ben it's already handled. Redbird and I talked about this at CWSE. I'm in Middle Georgia and interested. Currently asking my locals about their interest in it. If they're in I'm in, if they aren't then I'm not sure what I could do with it. |
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Quoted: APC has several million dollars of insurance covering all participants at our events, as well as hosts, instructors, etc. In fact, insurance is our largest single expenditure every year. So yes, we do have that sort of protection. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You want an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid? That is APC. I don't think this is true, but would love to be proven wrong. For instance, I've got a Venturing Crew that did shooting sports until BSA decided that the way to fix people not following rules was to make more restrictive rules for those that do follow the rules. Even though the families involved would happily join another organization that would let the youth go back to shooting safely as they did for years before, there aren't many/any organizations that will provide an insurance umbrella for the leaders... at least with BSA if we follow their rules we're covered by their liability insurance. CMP, APC, and others don't seem to have that kind of protection. APC has several million dollars of insurance covering all participants at our events, as well as hosts, instructors, etc. In fact, insurance is our largest single expenditure every year. So yes, we do have that sort of protection. Good to know! I don't see how to create a chapter online, but in reality your age limit/restrictions makes it NOT "an alternative to BSA" since having parents or "legal guarding" (I'm pretty sure that should be "legal guardian") present for 13-15yo is quite a bit more restrictive than BSA ever has been, and I suspect is part of how you're able to have insurance coverage. Maybe instead of "an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid" it would be more accurate to say "a way for grownups to relive their childhood memories of BSA activities" 
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I'm going to take a bit of a different tack. I've been part of APC since the first warfighter. I helped organize a robust chapter near Seattle. I've participated and worked as staff. But I'd like to see the vision of the revised organization before I decide what level I'd like to participate at moving forward. Having volunteered for a few other organizations I have become cautious. If the remaining BoD could weigh in here, that would be helpful. I don't know who they are, despite having been active for the past 5 or so years. |
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Quoted: Maybe instead of "an alternative to BSA that does the sorts of things BSA did back when you were a kid" it would be more accurate to say "a way for grownups to relive their childhood memories of BSA activities" Can civilization be maintained without a private volunteer citizenry willing and able to go outside the camp walls and move/sleep/fight? On a sliding scale between Ethan Allen’s green mountain boys, and those fat people in the movie Wall-E, where do you think people need to live in order to maintain a civilization? |
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Quoted: But I'd like to see the vision of the revised organization before I decide what level I'd like to participate at moving forward. Having volunteered for a few other organizations I have become cautious. If the remaining BoD could weigh in here, that would be helpful. I don't know who they are, despite having been active for the past 5 or so years. I am currently on the BoD. The vision and direction of the revised organization is what we want some new blood in there to discuss and implement. I believe we have an awesome thing here, but our PR sucks and what we've been doing hasn't been working. It's time to shake things up a bit. |
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Quoted: @Ben How should the two statements above be interpreted? Quoted: Quoted: APC has been chugging along for five years, but it is time for some changes. It has been an honor to serve on the Board of Directors these past five years. @Ben How should the two statements above be interpreted? I am willing to continue on the board, but I hope that people better than me will materialize. Never has it been the desire of anyone on the board of directors to be there forever, and if people are happy with APC, great. If people aren't happy with APC and want to see new blood, that is fine too. Being in a decision making position should always come with the message hanging over your head that "It isn't about you." I think folks need to understand that APC exists for them, and if they want to see something different this is their opportunity to suggest it. |
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Our local chapter is still going strong. It honestly changed my life (no homo). If you haven't joined or created a chapter of APC, you're doing it wrong. And yes, there's immense value in getting even 5 guys out to train. 5 coordinated individuals with squared away individual skillsets can do extraordinary things. If you take the 2A seriously, join APC or create a chapter. |
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Quoted: I am currently on the BoD. The vision and direction of the revised organization is what we want some new blood in there to discuss and implement. I believe we have an awesome thing here, but our PR sucks and what we've been doing hasn't been working. It's time to shake things up a bit. Pretty much. APC exploded in popularity when it first appeared. Then it fizzled a little after January 6th, despite not having anything to do with January 6th in any way. People seemed scared, and were afraid APC would get labeled extremist for holding...service rifle matches that the Marine Corps Shooting Team has award medals for. Covid. Then Trump got reelected. After dealing with the above for years and being financially broken, many people decided to (or were forced to) take a breathe and relax. But that might have slipped into complacency in many ways. Take all of the above alongside APC being very effective for instruction and field skills, but average at best administratively, and below average in the PR and fundraising spheres, and we are stagnant. APC is also financially in a position where it needs a new benefactor. I was happy to bankroll as much as the rest of the country combined for the past five years, but recent events have made that untenable in the future. There is a perception that APC is a bunch of bad stereotype militia dudes who look like they belong on the cast of Deliverance, running through the woods playing soldier. The reality is shooting is approximately 10% of what APC does. The average participant has at least a bachelor's degree, and regular APC participants tend to be either teenagers or working professionals (yes, we have enough of these with master's degree or above to offset the teenagers) who are far enough along that they have established careers and extra free time and money to burn. APC is fully insured and focused on general outdoor skills, and is relatively unique in that we are one of the only national outdoor organizations that has truly universal standards regardless of age or gender. |
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Quoted: I am currently on the BoD. The vision and direction of the revised organization is what we want some new blood in there to discuss and implement. I believe we have an awesome thing here, but our PR sucks and what we've been doing hasn't been working. It's time to shake things up a bit. I'd say it's no fault of your PR efforts, it's probably more that your target audience is apathetic. No amount of PR isn't going to overcome that. |
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I bought a shirt in one of the last fundraisers and the guidebook. Then promptly had some medical issues keep me from serious physical activity. Finally getting that under control and I'd love to start getting involved as I regain my physical fitness. To beat the dead horse, scouting isn't what it used to be and I'm not enthused for my son to participate when he's old enough. Alternatives with better values and more political neutrality (or abstention) are a lot more palatable. With no real participation with APC, I'm obviously not running for BoD but I'll be trying to do what I can to promote and improve the organization. |
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Quoted: Can civilization be maintained without a private volunteer citizenry willing and able to go outside the camp walls and move/sleep/fight? On a sliding scale between Ethan Allen’s green mountain boys, and those fat people in the movie Wall-E, where do you think people need to live in order to maintain a civilization? You missed my point (and presumably my "smart ass" smiley) - I'm poking a little fun at the "relive your childhood" but the main point is that APC is *NOT* a replacement/better BSA (much as we need one). Quoted: To beat the dead horse, scouting isn't what it used to be and I'm not enthused for my son to participate when he's old enough. Alternatives with better values and more political neutrality (or abstention) are a lot more palatable. Again, my point is that APC doesn't offer a replacement for scouting - "youth led" is a key part of older youth scouting and with APC rules every youth needs a parent present...anyone who has worked with scouting knows a room full of mommies and daddies does NOT result in youth-led! I'm not dissing APC (heck, I'm a proud owner of an APC lower) just pointing out the contradictions with the statement that it's a replacement for BSA (and don't take that as an endorsement of BSA!) |
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I think in terms of marketing, getting more exposure in the gun tube world is the next big step. 15 years ago you were weird if you had NODS/armor. Now it's commonplace. We're at that stage with corporate training; it is still on the fringes of the community, but hasn't broken into the mainstream ethos yet. I think an effort needs to be made to lobby FPC and GOA specifically to start advocating for corporate training. Individual gun ownership is only part of the 2A, and it's nested only in terms of a necessary condition for corporate use. We have been omitting an entire half of pro-2A messaging for over a century now; it's time to change that. But yes, people are comfortable at the moment and Trump has lulled many back to sleep. Ironically, I don't think the republic has ever been in more danger than it is now. Have partnerships with either GOA or FPC been pursued? I'd include the NRA but that seems like wasted effort, though I imagine it doesn't hurt to try. |
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Quoted: I think in terms of marketing, getting more exposure in the gun tube world is the next big step. 15 years ago you were weird if you had NODS/armor. Now it's commonplace. We're at that stage with corporate training; it is still on the fringes of the community, but hasn't broken into the mainstream ethos yet. I think an effort needs to be made to lobby FPC and GOA specifically to start advocating for corporate training. Individual gun ownership is only part of the 2A, and it's nested only in terms of a necessary condition for corporate use. We have been omitting an entire half of pro-2A messaging for over a century now; it's time to change that. But yes, people are comfortable at the moment and Trump has lulled many back to sleep. Ironically, I don't think the republic has ever been in more danger than it is now. Have partnerships with either GOA or FPC been pursued? I'd include the NRA but that seems like wasted effort, though I imagine it doesn't hurt to try. The APC is very specifically apolitical as an organization. |
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Quoted: The APC is very specifically apolitical as an organization. I'm aware, but there is a spectrum of "apolitical" that ranges from strictly non-partisan (which is almost meaningless these days) to making every attempt to not touch on anything that might resemble a political issue (and then everything in between). The latter is impossible in the practical sense in 2025. It's been acknowledged that the current marketing strategy isn't working. If partnering (or seeking partnerships) with single-issue, non-partisan organizations like GOA or FPC and making inroads into the guntube community is considered "political," you're cutting off pretty much all your primary marketing avenues that would be relevant to APC's mission set. Without saying too much, my thoughts are based in some professional experience here; just throwing some stuff against the wall here and seeing what sticks. |
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Quoted: You missed my point (and presumably my "smart ass" smiley) - I'm poking a little fun at the "relive your childhood" but the main point is that APC is *NOT* a replacement/better BSA (much as we need one). Again, my point is that APC doesn't offer a replacement for scouting - "youth led" is a key part of older youth scouting and with APC rules every youth needs a parent present...anyone who has worked with scouting knows a room full of mommies and daddies does NOT result in youth-led! I'm not dissing APC (heck, I'm a proud owner of an APC lower) just pointing out the contradictions with the statement that it's a replacement for BSA (and don't take that as an endorsement of BSA!) Point of order, youth 15 and under need a parent present. There is a strong emphasis on putting people 16 to 21 in charge when they are available, and while 16 and 17 year olds need a waiver signed by their parents, they don't need a parent present. If someone participated in APC regularly starting their 16th birthday, the idea is that before they are 19 they are better prepared to be dropped into filling the leadership role equivalent to a sergeant than most sergeants are who got promoted largely due to regulations and institutional necessity. |
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Quoted: Point of order, youth 15 and under need a parent present. There is a strong emphasis on putting people 16 to 21 in charge when they are available, and while 16 and 17 year olds need a waiver signed by their parents, they don't need a parent present. Quoted: Quoted: You missed my point (and presumably my "smart ass" smiley) - I'm poking a little fun at the "relive your childhood" but the main point is that APC is *NOT* a replacement/better BSA (much as we need one). Again, my point is that APC doesn't offer a replacement for scouting - "youth led" is a key part of older youth scouting and with APC rules every youth needs a parent present...anyone who has worked with scouting knows a room full of mommies and daddies does NOT result in youth-led! I'm not dissing APC (heck, I'm a proud owner of an APC lower) just pointing out the contradictions with the statement that it's a replacement for BSA (and don't take that as an endorsement of BSA!) Point of order, youth 15 and under need a parent present. There is a strong emphasis on putting people 16 to 21 in charge when they are available, and while 16 and 17 year olds need a waiver signed by their parents, they don't need a parent present. Agreed, and appreciated - I think I quoted your 13-15 range earlier. In Venturing they're leading as early as age 13 so that's (13-15) a pretty critical chunk of time where they must have parents present. Look, I'm really not trying to bust your chops on your program overall, just the "BSA replacement" part *REALLY* isn't true. I've not done enough research on your program to know if it would even be a good fit for our youth without the age restrictions, but the age part pretty much makes me walk away by itself. Not even really a complaint, just an observation. |
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The leadership team should look at what the F3 men's leadership and workout group has accomplished and reverse engineer the success they've had. F3nation.com Heck, I read about F3 here on arfcom almost 2 years ago and have been involved localy ever since. With F3 im happy to spend a few hours a week with like minded men in the pursuit of fitness, personal growth, leadership, fellowship, and accountability. APC is not F3, nor am I suggesting it should be. There is some union between the two and the organizational approach is very similar. |
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I've never had any interactions with the APC, but I do at least have the Task Book! When I look at it, here's my take: -I'm a chubby middle aged former athlete who has never done a thing military related. Is this for me? Sometimes it looks like a military reunion hookup site. Other times, it looks kind of empty.I reviewed the site again a few minutes ago, and I see no chapter in my area (NY), and I sure as hell am not qualified to start one based off the impression I get from the site. I want to learn some skills, but I'm not going to become Billy Badass anytime soon, nor am I capable of starting a chapter and churning out Billy Badasses -All emails are proton emails, is this a legit org or some sort of half assed militia? Do I want my name associated with it? -I am heavily involved in emergency response. I get frequent letters from town supervisors, mayors, etc. saying "Thanks Lattimer, you saved our bacon." Do you have any way to show legitimacy through things like that? -You mention engineering. I'm an engineer. I'm an engineer that does disaster response as a part of my job. That can span a huge spectrum of possibilities, but what exactly is it that you are purporting to do in an engineering capacity? I do realize that military engineering is markedly different than civilian engineering (I'm a PE, not a barbed wire installer). Just some feedback to the team for thought. I really like what I know about the org, and I've been following what Ben has to say about it for a few years. |
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I serve on the board of an all-volunteer sports league here in Austin. We face some of the same issues the OP mentions—attracting new talent to the board, keeping board members who have organizational knowledge, and preventing board member burn out. It’s tough. I’ve served for seven or eight years in my role and struggle internally about whether I’ll continue. I find my work on the board cathartic, so I’m inclined to stick around for yet another season. Fund raising and PR are tough. We hosted a statewide tournament in 2024, and that generated a ton of local interest, but that interest was short lived. For the same statewide tournament this year our league managed to send only two of the typical three teams. I’m certainly not trying to compare APC to a sports league; as a board member of our league I can see similar difficulties. But we’re working on mostly a local scale. I can very much appreciate the magnitude of complication on a national scale even if I don’t understand it. |
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Quoted: This is less about "you need to get out there and do stuff" (though you totally should) and more about some restructuring of leadership at a national level and developing and organizing better regional leadership. So while we value physical fitness, it's not the primary requirement for the roles we're trying to fill. Plenty of older, partially broken guys that might not be the peak of their game physically but might have a lot to offer on the training, planning and policy setting fronts. Young studs are also welcome in these roles. So if you know that guy, or are that guy, reach out. Previous involvement with the organization is obviously a plus. Looks like there is nothing in Iowa. |
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Quoted: The leadership team should look at what the F3 men's leadership and workout group has accomplished and reverse engineer the success they've had. F3nation.com Heck, I read about F3 here on arfcom almost 2 years ago and have been involved localy ever since. With F3 im happy to spend a few hours a week with like minded men in the pursuit of fitness, personal growth, leadership, fellowship, and accountability. APC is not F3, nor am I suggesting it should be. There is some union between the two and the organizational approach is very similar. This is a good point. I did F3 for a couple months before moving. The ops framework they use is easily cloned to new groups, and very conducive to developing local leaders. And its just a workout group. |
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Attached File Hmmm. Not seeing any engineering mentioned in the rest of the web site. |
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Quoted: I've never had any interactions with the APC, but I do at least have the Task Book! When I look at it, here's my take: -I'm a chubby middle aged former athlete who has never done a thing military related. Is this for me? Sometimes it looks like a military reunion hookup site. Other times, it looks kind of empty.I reviewed the site again a few minutes ago, and I see no chapter in my area (NY), and I sure as hell am not qualified to start one based off the impression I get from the site. I want to learn some skills, but I'm not going to become Billy Badass anytime soon, nor am I capable of starting a chapter and churning out Billy Badasses -All emails are proton emails, is this a legit org or some sort of half assed militia? Do I want my name associated with it? -I am heavily involved in emergency response. I get frequent letters from town supervisors, mayors, etc. saying "Thanks Lattimer, you saved our bacon." Do you have any way to show legitimacy through things like that? -You mention engineering. I'm an engineer. I'm an engineer that does disaster response as a part of my job. That can span a huge spectrum of possibilities, but what exactly is it that you are purporting to do in an engineering capacity? I do realize that military engineering is markedly different than civilian engineering (I'm a PE, not a barbed wire installer). Just some feedback to the team for thought. I really like what I know about the org, and I've been following what Ben has to say about it for a few years. Hey, you're me, and I'm you! Well, except I've lost weight recently so not chubby.. working on the fitness though. But yes, I've never been in the military, but I see a lot of skills that I would find useful or 'neat' to know.. but hitting middle age, so physical things are getting  Even the intro to Land Nav I'd love to do.. if there's ever a chapter in PA that's close enough (depending on area of the state) that I could do a weekend out of it.. |
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Quoted: Hey, you're me, and I'm you! Well, except I've lost weight recently so not chubby.. working on the fitness though. But yes, I've never been in the military, but I see a lot of skills that I would find useful or 'neat' to know.. but hitting middle age, so physical things are getting All of the training events we put on are very beginner friendly unless noted otherwise. The boats are fun as hell and if you can swim, you can participate. Intro to mountaineering is also one of the fun ones, and again, no experience necessary, though hopefully you don't have an issue with heights. Knots are easy enough to learn, way more difficult to remember, I struggle with this myself because I simply don't use 90% of them on a regular basis. Knots3D is a great app for this. Oh, and when the APC started in early 2020, I was 50 and hadn't slept in a tent in 25 years. Now I own three or four tents and honestly enjoy using them. I've found out that it's not all that uncomfortable outside my comfort zone. Get out there, do shit. If you can walk, you're not too old. |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/62111/Capture_jpg-3602048.JPG Hmmm. Not seeing any engineering mentioned in the rest of the web site. I think its meant more as creating and building leadership, not engineering itself |
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Quoted: I think its meant more as creating and building leadership, not engineering itself Right, though several of the tasks found in the task book are military engineering/mobility tasks. For example, constructing rope bridging or rigging 2:1 and 3:1 pulley systems. |