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Posted: 1/21/2009 1:40:14 PM EDT
Is the HR 1022 bill truly planned to go into effect this month with the FiveSeven as a banned gun?  I'm considering purchasing another for investment, but don't want to add to the panic or spend the money unnecessarily.  Thanks
Link Posted: 1/21/2009 1:48:14 PM EDT
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!
Link Posted: 1/21/2009 1:49:51 PM EDT
Buy a dozen.

Link Posted: 1/21/2009 1:58:42 PM EDT
That Bill was never passed.  Where did you hear its taking effect this month?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1022
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:49:28 AM EDT
Friend of mine is an "arms broker"  (overpaid weapon salesman)  He also said that the fed. gov. is no longer issuing importation licenses for military surpluss.  Can't find confirmation of that either.  

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:50:16 AM EDT
IBSS
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:53:19 AM EDT
Quoted:
IBSS


In Before the Shit Storm???

-Ben
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:57:27 AM EDT
Quoted:
That Bill was never passed.  Where did you hear its taking effect this month?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1022


somebody trying to sell him one told him ;)
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:58:40 AM EDT
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:58:50 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
IBSS


In Before the Shit Storm???

-Ben


yep
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:00:17 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


i paid 18 bucks a box for all that i have.  its a cool toy thats about it.  prices havent gone up at all either even with fn being the only supplier, but i think if they raised prices it would just kill the caliber.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:01:40 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


You know there is a US company in Arizona that produces a factory round for the FN 5.7 that outperforms the FN SS190 AP round in every way, right?  And it is actually about the same price as FN factory ammo.


-Ben
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:03:33 AM EDT
I've thought about buying a FN 5.7 several times but I just can't get over how much the grip feels like a toy pistol.

...and I'm a Glock guy
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:04:36 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


i paid 18 bucks a box for all that i have.  its a cool toy thats about it.  prices havent gone up at all either even with fn being the only supplier, but i think if they raised prices it would just kill the caliber.


Fair enough, but compared to .22MAG it's still more than double.
I thought prices would come down, with the bullpups chambered in 5.7 getting released a few years back by FN...
I don't really think that's happened. This ammo could just go away at anytime, I think.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:05:18 AM EDT
ammo NOT banned.  Just NOT for sale through Fn?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:05:22 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


You know there is a US company in Arizona that produces a factory round for the FN 5.7 that outperforms the FN SS190 AP round in every way, right?  And it is actually about the same price as FN factory ammo.


-Ben


No, I am unaware. Link?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:12:32 AM EDT
Quoted:
Is the HR 1022 bill truly planned to go into effect this month with the FiveSeven as a banned gun?  I'm considering purchasing another for investment, but don't want to add to the panic or spend the money unnecessarily.  Thanks


1022 was introduced 2/2007, never went anywhere.

Keep your eye on 6257, introduced last June.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:16:38 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


You know there is a US company in Arizona that produces a factory round for the FN 5.7 that outperforms the FN SS190 AP round in every way, right?  And it is actually about the same price as FN factory ammo.


-Ben


No, I am unaware. Link?


www.eliteammunition.com is their web address.  I've done some stuff with them before, and they can produce pretty much whatever round you want for the P90/FiveSeven pistol.  It is more expensive then the FN produced training rounds available to the general public, but a few boxes of the good stuff for personal defense couldn't be a bad idea.  2300FPS out of a pistol anyone? I can tell you that even against a IIIA vest, their FMJ round is pretty destructive at 200m from an SBR'd PS90.

-Ben
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:18:31 AM EDT
the only reason i havent bought one is i just dont want to have to stock up on ANOTHER caliber...
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:22:10 AM EDT
I'd actually like to toss in my $0.02 here about the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

Over a year ago, at our shop, we had a customer come in with a Level IIIA ballistic vest that he wanted to shoot with a .40S&W (IIRC, he wanted to test a sample he was given because he was looking at organizing a group buy of the armor for his platoon).  We put it down range, shot it with a .40S&W, and it didn't penetrate.

The guy thanked us, and let us keep the vest.

We fired every single pistol caliber we had in the shop at that vest - everything from .22LR to .50AE, and only the following two calibers penetrated the vest:

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)

One of the more interesting revelations with the 5.7x28mm was when we folded the vest in half to simulate front/rear armor.  The bullet pierced clean through the first layer, and became lodged in the second.  This was impressive to me, because it tells me that this cartridge would penetrate and incapacitate an armored assailant, without over penetrating and wounding bystanders who might be behind him.

I have a NIB Springfield 1911 Loaded SS Black on the way, which I'm thinking of offering for trade for a Five-seveN USG.  Something to compliment my PS90 SBR

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:23:41 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


You know there is a US company in Arizona that produces a factory round for the FN 5.7 that outperforms the FN SS190 AP round in every way, right?  And it is actually about the same price as FN factory ammo.


-Ben


No, I am unaware. Link?


www.eliteammunition.com is their web address.  I've done some stuff with them before, and they can produce pretty much whatever round you want for the P90/FiveSeven pistol.  It is more expensive then the FN produced training rounds available to the general public, but a few boxes of the good stuff for personal defense couldn't be a bad idea.  2300FPS out of a pistol anyone? I can tell you that even against a IIIA vest, their FMJ round is pretty destructive at 200m from an SBR'd PS90.

-Ben


id be real wary of their hot ammo for normal use though.  seems to me like thats got to be some pretty high pressure shit.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:26:17 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Overpriced 22 with overpriced ammo, PASS!



The ammo that us lowly peons are allowed to purchase isn't good for much else besides plinking.
The good shit is banned.
And why would you want to pay $0.50 per round for plinking ammo?


You know there is a US company in Arizona that produces a factory round for the FN 5.7 that outperforms the FN SS190 AP round in every way, right?  And it is actually about the same price as FN factory ammo.


-Ben


No, I am unaware. Link?


www.eliteammunition.com is their web address.  I've done some stuff with them before, and they can produce pretty much whatever round you want for the P90/FiveSeven pistol.  It is more expensive then the FN produced training rounds available to the general public, but a few boxes of the good stuff for personal defense couldn't be a bad idea.  2300FPS out of a pistol anyone? I can tell you that even against a IIIA vest, their FMJ round is pretty destructive at 200m from an SBR'd PS90.

-Ben


Yeah, I've seen them. That outfit is in Illinois I think, and that puts us back to $40/box or more.

I'm not big on arguing over calibers, I don't study various ballistics tests and all that...
my main concern is cost, availability, and the fear that this round could easily go extinct.

And I just checked...
Every Single 5.7 round Eliteammo.com offers is out of stock.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:29:58 AM EDT
Quoted:
a Level IIIA ballistic vest

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)



If you already have a PS90, it makes good sense to obtain a Five-seveN, IMO.

As for me, I could afford, and find, a metric assload of 7.62x25mm.


As for the vest, why not try 5.56. 5.45, or 7.62x39?
I wouldn't be dickin' around with pistols in a situation as such.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:31:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:32:14 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
a Level IIIA ballistic vest

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)



If you already have a PS90, it makes good sense to obtain a Five-seveN, IMO.

As for me, I could afford, and find, a metric assload of 7.62x25mm.


As for the vest, why not try 5.56. 5.45, or 7.62x39?
I wouldn't be dickin' around with pistols in a situation as such.


We used pistol rounds because we knew the rifle calibers would easily make swiss cheese out of it.

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:33:44 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd actually like to toss in my $0.02 here about the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

Over a year ago, at our shop, we had a customer come in with a Level IIIA ballistic vest that he wanted to shoot with a .40S&W (IIRC, he wanted to test a sample he was given because he was looking at organizing a group buy of the armor for his platoon).  We put it down range, shot it with a .40S&W, and it didn't penetrate.

The guy thanked us, and let us keep the vest.

We fired every single pistol caliber we had in the shop at that vest - everything from .22LR to .50AE, and only the following two calibers penetrated the vest:

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)

One of the more interesting revelations with the 5.7x28mm was when we folded the vest in half to simulate front/rear armor.  The bullet pierced clean through the first layer, and became lodged in the second.  This was impressive to me, because it tells me that this cartridge would penetrate and incapacitate an armored assailant, without over penetrating and wounding bystanders who might be behind him.

_MaH


No, it doesn't tell you anything.

Ballistic vests must be backed up with a clay backer to be properly tested.  Just hanging them in the air is not a valid test.  Neither is laying them against a hard surface, like wood.

You had fun, but you didn't learn any valid lesson.


Old_Painless's Knowledge > mhoffman's Knowledge

I guess I had a lot of fun, then.

Still want a Five Seven

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:35:09 AM EDT
Quoted:
I'd actually like to toss in my $0.02 here about the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

Over a year ago, at our shop, we had a customer come in with a Level IIIA ballistic vest that he wanted to shoot with a .40S&W (IIRC, he wanted to test a sample he was given because he was looking at organizing a group buy of the armor for his platoon).  We put it down range, shot it with a .40S&W, and it didn't penetrate.

The guy thanked us, and let us keep the vest.

We fired every single pistol caliber we had in the shop at that vest - everything from .22LR to .50AE, and only the following two calibers penetrated the vest:

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)

One of the more interesting revelations with the 5.7x28mm was when we folded the vest in half to simulate front/rear armor.  The bullet pierced clean through the first layer, and became lodged in the second.  This was impressive to me, because it tells me that this cartridge would penetrate and incapacitate an armored assailant, without over penetrating and wounding bystanders who might be behind him.

I have a NIB Springfield 1911 Loaded SS Black on the way, which I'm thinking of offering for trade for a Five-seveN USG.  Something to compliment my PS90 SBR

_MaH



I thought the commercially available stuff wasnt supposed to penetrate armor, only the mil/leo ammo that civvies couldnt get..guess they were wrong
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:36:13 AM EDT
Quoted:

Old_Painless's Knowledge > mhoffman's Knowledge


These things happen

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:36:44 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd actually like to toss in my $0.02 here about the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

Over a year ago, at our shop, we had a customer come in with a Level IIIA ballistic vest that he wanted to shoot with a .40S&W (IIRC, he wanted to test a sample he was given because he was looking at organizing a group buy of the armor for his platoon).  We put it down range, shot it with a .40S&W, and it didn't penetrate.

The guy thanked us, and let us keep the vest.

We fired every single pistol caliber we had in the shop at that vest - everything from .22LR to .50AE, and only the following two calibers penetrated the vest:

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)

One of the more interesting revelations with the 5.7x28mm was when we folded the vest in half to simulate front/rear armor.  The bullet pierced clean through the first layer, and became lodged in the second.  This was impressive to me, because it tells me that this cartridge would penetrate and incapacitate an armored assailant, without over penetrating and wounding bystanders who might be behind him.

I have a NIB Springfield 1911 Loaded SS Black on the way, which I'm thinking of offering for trade for a Five-seveN USG.  Something to compliment my PS90 SBR

_MaH



I thought the commercially available stuff wasnt supposed to penetrate armor, only the mil/leo ammo that civvies couldnt get..guess they were wrong


Sssshhhhhhh.......

If Brady somehow gets wind of this, just tell them that Old_Painless's logic rendered our testing insufficient and the ammo is definitely not capable of penetrating body armor.

Then go stock up on a few cases of the stuff

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:37:34 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd actually like to toss in my $0.02 here about the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

Over a year ago, at our shop, we had a customer come in with a Level IIIA ballistic vest that he wanted to shoot with a .40S&W (IIRC, he wanted to test a sample he was given because he was looking at organizing a group buy of the armor for his platoon).  We put it down range, shot it with a .40S&W, and it didn't penetrate.

The guy thanked us, and let us keep the vest.

We fired every single pistol caliber we had in the shop at that vest - everything from .22LR to .50AE, and only the following two calibers penetrated the vest:

- 7.62x25mm (Tokarev)

- 5.7x28mm SS197SR (Blue-tip, commercially available)

One of the more interesting revelations with the 5.7x28mm was when we folded the vest in half to simulate front/rear armor.  The bullet pierced clean through the first layer, and became lodged in the second.  This was impressive to me, because it tells me that this cartridge would penetrate and incapacitate an armored assailant, without over penetrating and wounding bystanders who might be behind him.

I have a NIB Springfield 1911 Loaded SS Black on the way, which I'm thinking of offering for trade for a Five-seveN USG.  Something to compliment my PS90 SBR

_MaH



I thought the commercially available stuff wasnt supposed to penetrate armor, only the mil/leo ammo that civvies couldnt get..guess they were wrong


Sssshhhhhhh.......

If Brady somehow gets wind of this, just tell them that Old_Painless's logic rendered our testing insufficient and the ammo is definitely not capable of penetrating body armor.

Then go stock up on a few cases of the stuff

_MaH



oh shit sorry

i meant to say that i never owned 5.7 and have no idea what im saying..move along ;)
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:38:48 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:

Old_Painless's Knowledge > mhoffman's Knowledge


These things happen



Yeah, been a big fan of the Box O' Truth for a long time.  Never thought my first one-on-one conversation with him would be a

Maybe he could find some Level IIIA body armor and perform the test accurately for us?

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:46:17 AM EDT
5.7x28mm is the shit.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:47:21 AM EDT
I've been paying about $00.36 (36 cents) per round of SS197SR (40gr V-Max) and $00.43 (43 cents) per round of SS192 (28gr JHP) from SG (with the buyer's club) and buying in 500 round lots.

That's cheaper than Midway USA's dealer price (C&R) or Natchez.  And about the same (for SS192SR) as Centurion .223 or Priv "M193", or whatever "OMG!" .223 is the rage this week.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:03:05 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Old_Painless's Knowledge > mhoffman's Knowledge


These things happen



Yeah, been a big fan of the Box O' Truth for a long time.  Never thought my first one-on-one conversation with him would be a

Maybe he could find some Level IIIA body armor and perform the test accurately for us?

_MaH


Or just fire it through the water jugs to put the inadequate penetration crap to rest..
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:08:40 AM EDT
I can state with surety that the FN SSS195LF and SS192 hollowpoints sure act like a FMJ round when they encounter a target.

-Ben
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:26:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:27:42 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Old_Painless's Knowledge > mhoffman's Knowledge


These things happen



Yeah, been a big fan of the Box O' Truth for a long time.  Never thought my first one-on-one conversation with him would be a

Maybe he could find some Level IIIA body armor and perform the test accurately for us?

_MaH


Sorry, I sure didn't mean it to come across like that.

I just though that maybe you didn't know that valid vest tests require a clay backer.

Testing labs specifically note that hanging one in the air, or backing them with a hard backer, like a tree, renders the test moot.

Just trying to help.

Shoot 'em all you want, any way you want.




the clay backer simulate the human in between?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:31:24 AM EDT
5.7 is easily and inexpensively reloadable,.22WMR is not.

The PS-90 is a very handy,um,plinking carbine that gives another level of range and accuracy over most handguns,not to menton a bunch of chances to be obnoxious.I bought mine entirely on the notion of having seen them for so long and never in a million years would I have thought that they'd have been sold on the civvie market.I have kicked my own ass for a long time for not buying an AUG and SP89 when they were too expensive for me to afford as nifty looking toys.That's all I need to justify owning it-along with the fact that it fits very nicely into a backpack disassembled so I can ride my bicycle or walk to the range on a nice day without getting too many funny looks.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:43:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:53:20 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:

the clay backer simulate the human in between?


Yes.

It "gives" a little, to allow the layers to move on each other and prevent penetration.


More here:  http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm


SWEET!

Any chance you could follow this up with various 5.7x28mm loads out of different firearms (PS90, PS90 SBR, Five-seveN) on IIIA armor?

I'm sure you have other probjects under way, though

Oh and no worries about earlier.  I know you were giving constructive advice

_MaH
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 5:56:14 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:

the clay backer simulate the human in between?


Yes.

It "gives" a little, to allow the layers to move on each other and prevent penetration.


More here:  http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm


Wow I never read that one.

Excellent stuff!!
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