Posted: 1/24/2012 4:46:15 AM EDT
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So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed!
What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong? Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks! This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class! |
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Not a DM, just a shooter.
A good .308 bolt gun with a 3-9x scope would be tough to beat for those requirements. If it were *my* money, I'd be looking hard at a Savage with a bull barrel. Someone else's budget ... a tuned Rem700 or similar would be tough to beat. (Find an F-Class shooter and ask what he uses. I tried a fellow's tuned 700/.308 at a match last summer and put 40 rounds into an inch and a half at 200yd.) |
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I would go with one of the .308 platform AR's , and order a stainless bbl from Kreiger chambered in .308 or .260 rem.
dont get hung up on bolt vs semi, as you can make a semi just as accurate as any bolt these days. reason why I recommend the .260 is because with its high BC bullets, it flies faster, flatter, for longer then the .308. doesn't mean much at 100yards, but as you go out its much easier to stay on target then the .308. |
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My vote would also be for a 16" barreled .308 ar15 type varient.
This would cover your bases in the event you had to make an entry. I know your main role with be designated marksman, but if your department is like mine, help is low and numbers and usually not as close as you would like. 16" barreled .308 is still a 600 yard rife (with the right ammo, optic, and shooter) You could also get away with a good ar in 5.56 with the right match ammo like and still be effective. My Departments DM uses a Noveske N4. Snipers using bolt .308. Did you ask the school what they recommend? |
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M1A is my FAVORITE rifle ever made. Possibly favorite firearm made.
That said, they take a lot of time and money and knowledge to get to a SNIPER RIFLE grade. I have 3 in my safe that are all examples of different methods of going about this. As much as I HATE to say this, AR 10 would be a better go round. If money is not an issue, the guy above with OBR and NF as the package has my +1 vote. YMMV Bev 
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OK, maybe you lost me a little. Are you a local cop, a fed, or a Marine? Or all three? Ref the original question, I would go with a 20" AR clone in .308/7.62x51. I'm a Fed LEO. Was in the Marines! With age I have found I shoot better! Quoted:
M1A is my FAVORITE rifle ever made. Possibly favorite firearm made. That said, they take a lot of time and money and knowledge to get to a SNIPER RIFLE grade. I have 3 in my safe that are all examples of different methods of going about this. As much as I HATE to say this, AR 10 would be a better go round. If money is not an issue, the guy above with OBR and NF as the package has my +1 vote. YMMV Bev I'm not looking for a sniper rifle all I'm going to be is a DM! Would not reach "Sniper" until I went through STR and then sent to sniper school. Really me I'm more of the guy who likes to kick in the door and be the first one in but with a 300 rifle score and most officers in the department being 260 or so they want to send me. |
OP, if you provide a copy of your police ID and agency contact to the BOTS moderators on here, they will allow you access to the restricted law enforcement forum of arfcom and you may be able to get more relavent assistance there. I would strongly suggest that you go this route first actually... |
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OP, if you provide a copy of your police ID and agency contact to the BOTS moderators on here, they will allow you access to the restricted law enforcement forum of arfcom and you may be able to get more relavent assistance there. I would strongly suggest that you go this route first actually... No flame but you make this sound like some Secret Squirrel Shit! All I'm wanting to know is what anyone who is a DM has as there rifle! This not a subject that is Secret Squirrel! Maybe with your department it is but with the Fed department I'm with it's not! Also with Feds we can not just send photos of are ID's! |
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OK, maybe you lost me a little. Are you a local cop, a fed, or a Marine? Or all three? Ref the original question, I would go with a 20" AR clone in .308/7.62x51. I'm a Fed LEO. Was in the Marines! With age I have found I shoot better! Quoted:
So I work 1800 hrs to 0600 hrs! I was dispatched to a home that had been broken into and items taken Tuesday night around 2200 hrs took report and looked for the Van they said left. Did not find anything! At 0700 was called back to work because of a report they wanted to know more since it was my day off I was ok with it and had to get the oil changed anyways at 1100 hrs! Did the report and was asked to talk to the new guys about going to training since I was the last one who went! Talked until 1000 hrs then drove an hour to where I get my oil changed. Yes I know its a long drive but the other place is 70 miles away. So I get my oil changed and keep getting calls on my personal phone from people I don't know! It was the guy I talked to about the theft at a home the night before. I was like HTF did he get my personal numbers? I did not give it to him! So who did give it to him? Found out later dispatch gave my personal number out to them!! YA I know really WTF!!!!!! So on my RDO's I did not take the call because if they had info they could have given it to an officer who was on duty right? Also these where firefighters I was dealing with! Well the RP got pissed I was not answering my personal phone so she asked to talk to the chief because she could not get me on the phone! Now I woke up at 1600 hrs Tuesday and was on duty until 1330 Wed! Yet now I'm going to be bit$hed at because I did not answer my personal phone that I did not give out! I have not talked to the top yet but by Monday I will! Looking for some advice! No we are not on call! No I did not tell dispatch they could give my number out to anyone! I'll be the first to admit I'm kind of out of my lane here.. Just wondering which fed agency you're with? |
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A couple of Forces over here have started routinely deploying DM with their ARV's (although they don't know it, as the role isn't recognised over here..). They are using 16" barrelled LMTMWSE's in .308 with Leupold CQ/T's. I have been trying to get it going with my Force as an alternative to a dubious and delayed sniper capability. The DM's (at least one pair per deployment) would routinely deploy with ARV's and Teams, so there is always a .308 rifle capability available. Most LE rifle encounters are short range so a 16" barrel is fine and better for portability. Personally I would go with a low mag variable scope than the CQ/T, plus a mini-dot for closer work.
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.308 or 300 Win Mag are the most logical considerations and Urban use is typically .308 where military sniper use is changing from .308 to 300 Win Mag or .338 lapua. This is not a "patrol rifle" you need a true tactical rifle not a 16 in gun. G A Precision or 20 in La Rue OBR
You need to be using a highly accurate rifle take a serious look at the GAP rifles and you will start to understand. You also need a high quality optic and since I have no idea what your price range is i will start by telling you that optics can be very very expensive. The absolute best is a Zeiss Heinsoldt or a Premier with U.S. Optics and Nightforce not far behind. The best one that is relatively affordable would be a 5-20x50 Super Sniper FFP Mil Mil Info AMMO info Balistics calculator Kenton Ind custom engraved tactical knobs (really Im more of a tactical optics expert but if you have questions feel free to PM me.) |
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Example of correct rifle GAP Crusader
Second Example Tac Ops Tango51 Third Example of Correct Rife Accuracy International AW (Artic Warfare) .308 |
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Quoted: Example of correct rifle GAP Crusader Second Example Tac Ops Tango51 Third Example of Correct Rife Accuracy International AW (Artic Warfare) .308 LE don't have the same operating environment as military. Historically, most LE rifle/sniper shots have been taken from inside 100m, but it would be prudent to have a capability out to 200m, even 300m, although this is highly unlikely. Military snipers often have to operate in hostile territory so want to take their shots from as far away as possible and may then have to escape & evade or stay concealed. LE snipers generally operate in a secure environment with no such considerations so want to get in as close as possible, even if covert, to ensure positive ID. They won't expect to have to bug out afterwards either. In any case, the DM is not a full blown sniper, but a regular team member with better marksmanship capability and a more capable weapon than their colleagues. Therefore they do not need a fully capable, 800yd+ gun/ammo and optics combination. In the case of LE DM this would be more of a hindrance, imho...
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Example of correct rifle GAP Crusader Second Example Tac Ops Tango51 Third Example of Correct Rife Accuracy International AW (Artic Warfare) .308 LE don't have the same operating environment as military. Historically, most LE rifle/sniper shots have been taken from inside 100m, but it would be prudent to have a capability out to 200m, even 300m, although this is highly unlikely. Military snipers often have to operate in hostile territory so want to take their shots from as far away as possible and may then have to escape & evade or stay concealed. LE snipers generally operate in a secure environment with no such considerations so want to get in as close as possible, even if covert, to ensure positive ID. They won't expect to have to bug out afterwards either. In any case, the DM is not a full blown sniper, but a regular team member with better marksmanship capability and a more capable weapon than their colleagues. Therefore they do not need a fully capable, 800yd+ gun/ammo and optics combination. In the case of LE DM this would be more of a hindrance, imho... I would generally agree with Icarus, but OP is not in a traditional environment. A longer range engagement is very reasonably forseeable in the typical Reservation environment that may be forced to go dramatically outside the norm of an LE sniper (What was the AAR study - 73 meters or something like that?) but even then, I would think that a Long Rifle/Precision rig would be too much gun, and the AR10 would be the more-or-less off the shelf answer, and an M1A would be more of an Armourer's Shop build if that is supported by agency weapons policy. It has been my position for a few years that any rural cop, like the OP, should be equipped with an entry length AR15 as well as a semi auto .308 with a good scope. |
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OP, if you provide a copy of your police ID and agency contact to the BOTS moderators on here, they will allow you access to the restricted law enforcement forum of arfcom and you may be able to get more relavent assistance there. I would strongly suggest that you go this route first actually... No flame but you make this sound like some Secret Squirrel Shit! All I'm wanting to know is what anyone who is a DM has as there rifle! This not a subject that is Secret Squirrel! Maybe with your department it is but with the Fed department I'm with it's not! Also with Feds we can not just send photos of are ID's! ok, im now officially calling you out as a troll. I have met feds and had fed friends who have had no problem with showing me their ID's. Im sure there is a LE moderator around here that you could provide some form of identification to without concern of compromising your secret identy or violating your employers restrictions about improper use of ID. Im requesting that you post your ORI on here or send a teletype from your agency to a mods agency or something to confirm your status. It should be more than easy for you to do. My old agencies ORI was C50055, IM a mod with yours and they should post here confirming that you are legit. Also, even though you're a cop on an indian base for the federal government, i would still expect them to have high enough hiring standards to at least employ people who could string together complete, coherent sentences. [edit to add] NoMoreGreen was nice enough to IM me and ask me what the hell an ORI number was and i realized that i had mine wrong when i went back and looked at one of my old crash reports. (ive been out of LE for 8 months now) my old ORI is TX1015000, best as i was told, its your agencies identifying number as used by ncic. |
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To be fair to HKUSP9,
ORI is the correct term (apparently) My department just refers to it as a TCIC ID Number. Had to calla dispatcher and ask lmao. (I dont see it a hell of a lot at my current department, and only saw it on occasion at my old) My old department is TX057XX. I cant remember if my current is TX06XXX or TX06XXX |
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To be fair to HKUSP9, ORI is the correct term (apparently) My department just refers to it as a TCIC ID Number. Had to calla dispatcher and ask lmao. (I dont see it a hell of a lot at my current department, and only saw it on occasion at my old) My old department is TXXXXXX. I cant remember if my current is TXxxxxx or TXxxxxx WOAH, slow down there man. erase your ori and rethink that. Im out of LE right now and definately not planning on EVER going back to my old agency so i dont have a problem posting that info, but you need to be a little more careful. Also, all of your crash reports should have your ORI at the bottom, thats about the only time that i ever used mine. I would like to know what tayouts is, since he seems very suspect with his poor typing and demeanor. He could be legit and his agency could just be seriously hurting for manpower. We had ONE guy at my agency out of 350 who typed like him, but he didnt last long either.... So lets see it OP, instant message a mod and make me look like an ass. Im sure that theres SOMETHING you can post to verify yourself. |
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Just a couple of things: I am currently assigned to an FBI Task Force. When they gave us our Federal creds we were told specifically to never copy or scan them. We were even told that we should never hand them to another person regardless who they were ( LEO or not). I'm pretty sure most Federal agencies adhere to this policy.
Re: the ORI numbers. They are public record, there's nothing confidential about them. I did a Google search for ORI numbers and found the complete list for every agency in the US. Back on topic. OP, my department is setting up a DM program. We are going to stick with .556 since we are very urban. 16" and 18" barrels will be approved. I'm not sure about optics but it will be over 3X since that is already approved for our patrol rifles. Noveske, Colt, S&W and RRA are on our approved list. I don't know if any other brands will be approved. ETA, if you think you might really have to reach out to 500 yards and your department approves, I would go .308. Can't go wrong with a Noveske or a Larue in that caliber. |
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To be fair to HKUSP9, ORI is the correct term (apparently) My department just refers to it as a TCIC ID Number. Had to calla dispatcher and ask lmao. (I dont see it a hell of a lot at my current department, and only saw it on occasion at my old) My old department is TXXXXXX. I cant remember if my current is TXxxxxx or TXxxxxx WOAH, slow down there man. erase your ori and rethink that. Im out of LE right now and definately not planning on EVER going back to my old agency so i dont have a problem posting that info, but you need to be a little more careful. Also, all of your crash reports should have your ORI at the bottom, thats about the only time that i ever used mine. I would like to know what tayouts is, since he seems very suspect with his poor typing and demeanor. He could be legit and his agency could just be seriously hurting for manpower. We had ONE guy at my agency out of 350 who typed like him, but he didnt last long either.... So lets see it OP, instant message a mod and make me look like an ass. Im sure that theres SOMETHING you can post to verify yourself. I erased them. on second thought after reading your post. |
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's the Indian more than the arrow that is important. Get your training and PRACTICE. You don't need to spend $3k to have a decent rifle with capabilities at extended ranges. Agree 100% with what you are saying! I'm not looking for the department to buy a $3K rifle I have talked with my Lt and asked about maybe getting military M-14 since we are a Fed agency taking it and seeing how much it would cost to make it to something that would work! He told me he was sure we could get the M-14 for nothing. Yet not sure if it would be worth money wise to rebuild it or just buy new? |
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's the Indian more than the arrow that is important. Get your training and PRACTICE. You don't need to spend $3k to have a decent rifle with capabilities at extended ranges. Agree 100% with what you are saying! I'm not looking for the department to buy a $3K rifle I have talked with my Lt and asked about maybe getting military M-14 since we are a Fed agency taking it and seeing how much it would cost to make it to something that would work! He told me he was sure we could get the M-14 for nothing. Yet not sure if it would be worth money wise to rebuild it or just buy new? you must have missed half of your own thread where you were logged on when i called you out and asked you to contact a mod and vet your self. I will personally take a few hours out of my day to talk to you over the phone about the DMRO program and precision rifles and will refer you to some SWAT snipers in my area if you will vet yourself. Until then, im going to assume that you're a poorly spoken super secret squirrel fed impersonator. |
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's the Indian more than the arrow that is important. Get your training and PRACTICE. You don't need to spend $3k to have a decent rifle with capabilities at extended ranges. Agree 100% with what you are saying! I'm not looking for the department to buy a $3K rifle I have talked with my Lt and asked about maybe getting military M-14 since we are a Fed agency taking it and seeing how much it would cost to make it to something that would work! He told me he was sure we could get the M-14 for nothing. Yet not sure if it would be worth money wise to rebuild it or just buy new? you must have missed half of your own thread where you were logged on when i called you out and asked you to contact a mod and vet your self. I will personally take a few hours out of my day to talk to you over the phone about the DMRO program and precision rifles and will refer you to some SWAT snipers in my area if you will vet yourself. Until then, im going to assume that you're a poorly spoken super secret squirrel fed impersonator. I was just assuming he was being the bigger LEO and ignoring you. |
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's the Indian more than the arrow that is important. Get your training and PRACTICE. You don't need to spend $3k to have a decent rifle with capabilities at extended ranges. Agree 100% with what you are saying! I'm not looking for the department to buy a $3K rifle I have talked with my Lt and asked about maybe getting military M-14 since we are a Fed agency taking it and seeing how much it would cost to make it to something that would work! He told me he was sure we could get the M-14 for nothing. Yet not sure if it would be worth money wise to rebuild it or just buy new? you must have missed half of your own thread where you were logged on when i called you out and asked you to contact a mod and vet your self. I will personally take a few hours out of my day to talk to you over the phone about the DMRO program and precision rifles and will refer you to some SWAT snipers in my area if you will vet yourself. Until then, im going to assume that you're a poorly spoken super secret squirrel fed impersonator. I was just assuming he was being the bigger LEO and ignoring you. Given the OP's track record here, hkusp9 is not out of line. |
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's the Indian more than the arrow that is important. Get your training and PRACTICE. You don't need to spend $3k to have a decent rifle with capabilities at extended ranges. Agree 100% with what you are saying! I'm not looking for the department to buy a $3K rifle I have talked with my Lt and asked about maybe getting military M-14 since we are a Fed agency taking it and seeing how much it would cost to make it to something that would work! He told me he was sure we could get the M-14 for nothing. Yet not sure if it would be worth money wise to rebuild it or just buy new? you must have missed half of your own thread where you were logged on when i called you out and asked you to contact a mod and vet your self. I will personally take a few hours out of my day to talk to you over the phone about the DMRO program and precision rifles and will refer you to some SWAT snipers in my area if you will vet yourself. Until then, im going to assume that you're a poorly spoken super secret squirrel fed impersonator. I was just assuming he was being the bigger LEO and ignoring you. Given the OP's track record here, hkusp9 is not out of line. Ok, i took a little bit to think about this and i think any and all of the above is correct. I think i was a little out of line, but here's why: At lightfighter, its understood that you need to be who you say you are because its a professional forum and advice should be credible and delivered by credible persons. If you claim to be something, they will verify your claim before they allow you to speak from that position. Here on arfcom, we now have the LEO only fourm where people are vetted before entering, and the BOTS forum, where anyone can post and you have no idea who they are. I guess if trolls or liars bothers me so much, i should stop hanging out in the BOTS forum and get a badge again in order to post in the LEO board. So I guess that im kind of out of line for calling tayouts out, but not out of line for thinking that this claims of being a "federal LEO and marine designated sniper" are suspicious. Im going to tolerate him in the BOTS threads without calling him out anymore, but my requests that he vet himself to a BOTS or leo only board moderator stand. |
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So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed! What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong? Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks! This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class! What I think he meant to say but did a poor job typing it: "...bolt action rifles hold tighter groups and I'm all for them for the Snipers. But, I'm only going to be a DM (for my agency). In the Marines, a DM was someone with a little more training, but less than a sniper." What I get is that he is going to school to be a DM. Maybe I'm wrong. |
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So I'm going to be sent to a designated marksmen’s course for my PD and the PD said we can pick whatever rifle and caliber we want . My area is a large area when I think about it we might have shoots up to 500 yards yet I’m guessing most will be in the 100 yard or less range if we are needed! What I’d like to ask is what type of weapon would be best caliber and so on! I know bolt action holds tighter groups and all and I’m all for them with Snipers but I’m going to be only a DM in the Marines it that was someone with a little more training then the rest of the grunts but in no way a sniper. Maybe I’m getting the title wrong? Anyway I’m a 308 fan seen what it has done in Iraq but I’m open to other calibers! Like I said we could have long shots since I live in the open North Dakota but most I’m guessing will be a 100 yards or less! Any advice would help thanks! This is coming from a machine gunner who now is a DM if I pass the class! What I think he meant to say but did a poor job typing it: "...bolt action rifles hold tighter groups and I'm all for them for the Snipers. But, I'm only going to be a DM (for my agency). In the Marines, a DM was someone with a little more training, but less than a sniper." What I get is that he is going to school to be a DM. Maybe I'm wrong. I think its hard to decypher anything that hes saying, which is why i recommended that he take some report writing classes. Theres no way that hes going to make a case on anyone when the jury cant understand the facts that he is presenting. Im not faulting him for his present typing ability, you are who you are and you have to work with the tools that you have. But I think improving his writing ability would be a good career investment for him. And now back on topic.... Im sure that it varies agency by agency but i was not aware that any agencies designated patrol officers to be "marksman" and carry around a magnified rifle just as a street level capibility. I was under the impression that only SWAT and ERT appointed "snipers" to handle specific situations with coorination from a command structure on critical incidents. At least, i have never seen an agency in my half of texas that allows individual patrol officers to carry a magnified precision rifle for general preparedness. In fact, in every written carbine and rifle policy that i have ever read, magnified optics above 2-3 power were always prohibited to everyone but designated SWAT snipers. I think what we need here is some more clarification from the OP on what role his federal police agency expects him to fill with the weapon as well as the area in which he will be working, which he as already provided in general terms. |
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Actually my agency is about to adopt a precision rifle program this fall. Currently we have patrol rifles with authorization for 3x magnifiers. TCLEOSE mandates a different qualification course for anything over 3x (under that is still considered a patrol rifle). The specs haven't come out as yet so I'm not sure what rifles and scopes will be allowed. This is a big departure for us. Currently only SWAT has sniper rifles. This will end being very limited since the department will not be buying the rifles. Officers will have to purchase their own.
I agree that the OP needs to post his department guidelines/parameters (assuming there are any) for the DM rifles so we can offer useful suggestions. |
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Actually my agency is about to adopt a precision rifle program this fall. Currently we have patrol rifles with authorization for 3x magnifiers. TCLEOSE mandates a different qualification course for anything over 3x (under that is still considered a patrol rifle). The specs haven't come out as yet so I'm not sure what rifles and scopes will be allowed. This is a big departure for us. Currently only SWAT has sniper rifles. This will end being very limited since the department will not be buying the rifles. Officers will have to purchase their own. I agree that the OP needs to post his department guidelines/parameters (assuming there are any) for the DM rifles so we can offer useful suggestions. You know, in most situations I would say that your department should provide any equipment that you need. But in this situation i think that requiring officers to buy their own, while limiting what they can purchase with department GO's, will limit the unmotivated and uneducated from using a precision rifle to attempt a shot on a guy standing next to a guy at 500 yards or a similar situation where you really do NOT want joe blow, took an 8 hr class-cop trying his hand at something like that. |
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Actually my agency is about to adopt a precision rifle program this fall. Currently we have patrol rifles with authorization for 3x magnifiers. TCLEOSE mandates a different qualification course for anything over 3x (under that is still considered a patrol rifle). The specs haven't come out as yet so I'm not sure what rifles and scopes will be allowed. This is a big departure for us. Currently only SWAT has sniper rifles. This will end being very limited since the department will not be buying the rifles. Officers will have to purchase their own. I agree that the OP needs to post his department guidelines/parameters (assuming there are any) for the DM rifles so we can offer useful suggestions. You know, in most situations I would say that your department should provide any equipment that you need. But in this situation i think that requiring officers to buy their own, while limiting what they can purchase with department GO's, will limit the unmotivated and uneducated from using a precision rifle to attempt a shot on a guy standing next to a guy at 500 yards or a similar situation where you really do NOT want joe blow, took an 8 hr class-cop trying his hand at something like that. I agree that the department should buy this type of weapon but in this economy it ain't gonna happen. I just shocked it was even approved. Shows you what can happen when you get a new Chief and a new Rangemaster. In one year we got approval for weapon mounted lights, slugs and semi-auto shotguns. |