Posted: 3/10/2005 4:52:25 AM EDT
The damn post office refuses to ship my shot gun! Its not a short barrel or a handgun and its not loaded! I go in there and tell them I would like to ship it and they tell me it has to be from dealer to dealer! But everyone else is telling me otherwise! I have read the laws and I know I'm right but they just dont get it. Its like they try to find anything to counteract what I explain to them. Am I screwing up by telling them what I'm shipping or are these people just being unreasonable? This shotgun has become the mother of all headaches for me! Please help!
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Is that where I'm messing up? Telling them what's in there? ? ? I told them because I'm not sure if it would get confiscated or what! I dont know how they go about course of actions for things! So your telling me that I SHOULD NOT TELL THEM Whats in the? ? ? |
Personally, I wouldn't. I ship stuff UPS daily, and a lot of times, hate to fess up, you're better off not saying what's in there. I had to ship an inflatable life-raft once, some ferrypilots had forgotten it. Made the misatke to call UPS. It was Hazardous, because of the cartridge etc. I told them, that the raft was the same thing that was standard equipment in the UPS plane, but they just wouldn't take it. Then I ended up shipping it without reporting it being hazmat or anything. |
Ultimately, the USPS refers to the ATF since Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of shipping firearms.
This takes you to the ATF's FAQ: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8 |
So it wont get confiscated because all in all it is legal to ship weather I tell them or not. Right? |
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I feel for you. I gave up on the USPS when I learned that a mail carrier isn't required to pick up your mail, only deliver it. They have to take it only at the PO and the blue mailboxes. I was told that it was only a courtesy that my mail gets picked up at my home. Doc |
They are really being dicks lately and are violating their own regs. But, hey, they're the gov't.  As for the box, I will tell you they know gunboxes when they see them. Strip it down and mail it in a different box. Or send it FEDEX, that's what I am doing anymore. Even UPS has been a PITA and I live in a rural area with tons of hunters, etc. FEDEX just wants your money and will ship anything. More expensive though. |
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This is all in case they ask, which I find odd that they did. They ask you if there's anything potentially hazardous, dangerous, etc etc etc.... That's you tell them the truth - > No Things I've said to ship firearms legally through the USPS system and avoid the nonsensical ignorant bullshit that'd ruin my afternoon: It's a lamp It's a car part It's a shelf It's a skateboard and my favorite... It's not really important, is it? |
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Go back, ask to speak to the postmaster, and tell him to look it up in the DMM (Domestic Mail Manual). They have one in every post office. The relevant sections are in section DMM C 024 (under the heading ORM = Other Restricted Materials). That section also specifies how not just shotguns, but rifles, may be mailed - as long as they are sent to a FFL dealer (consistent with federal law) Part 3.0 specifies that mailing long guns is okay aslong as the rifle/long arm doesn't violate federal gun laws, and complies with C024 1.2 it is non-concealable, and C024 1.1e the barrel is 16" or longer. The post office is allowed to inspect your package (i.e. open it) to ensure it is unloaded, and they are NOT allowed to mark the box in ANY WAY to indicate there is a firearm inside. The firearm does NOT have to be disassembled - just can't be loaded. You do NOT need to have an FFL to ship it. Go back there and teach those idiots how to do their job, and insist that they mail it, as they are legally required to do - and then make sure you insure it for a LOT (just in case they are bitter assholes). 
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I actually disagree with that, as a legal point. Firearms fall under ORM - and as such can be considered "hazardous" by Post Office regulations. In addition, the postal regulations clearly indicate that you have to allow them to inspect the firearm to make sure it is not loaded. By not telling them it is a firearm, you are essentially refusing to give them that option - which is required. My interpretation of that requirement is that you MUST inform them it is a firearm. With FedEx and UPS, I don't necessarily tell them either, but I'm very paranoid about fucking with the Post Office (and indirectly, the Federal Government). |
I showed them exactly that out of there own manual and they still told me know, they said they do not want to be responsible for it. I'm just not going to tell them. |
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Ive shipped four guns via fedex in the last month. Yeah it may cost 5 bucks more. Maybe. But they dont fuck with me, and the guy behind the counter knows whats in the box because i talk to him all the time at the store. They dont care, its allowed under law and im paying them to move it. Thats all. PS. Ups cant ship shit on time or get it there witout it being trashed, no way in hell am i handing over a weapon i own to their care. Fedex is more, but timely and safe. just my .02 |
Damn. In that case, I would complain to their superiors - not sure if that is a federal-level "Postmaster" or a local state or district or something, but I find it absolutely OUTRAGEOUS that federal employees would willfully REFUSE to do part of their job, just because they don't feel comfortable doing it. For what it's worth, UPS is usually cheaper anyway, so maybe just go to a "UPS store" (the old Mailboxes etc.) and don't tell them what it is. You'll probably save money AND hassle. |
I shipped a rifle via UPS without telling them what was inside. They opened it somewhere along the route and ended up holding it for 14 or 15 days. It was the biggest hassle I've ever had with a shipper. |
| Print out the regulations and take them in there, ask to speak to the Postmaster, it's what I had to do. If she want budge, take the time to write down her name, ask who her regional manager is, and tell her you are going to file a formal complaint with the Postmaster General. |
I recently shipped a firearm I sold to an FFL through the USPS. I went to one of nearby Post Office locations that I frequently go to (they know me on sight). I told them the truth. Why? Because lying isn't right and can only complicate matters if things go bad. Let your conscience be your guide.  Anway, I walked in with a big box that doesn't look anything like a firearm. When they asked about the contents, I told them it contained a long gun. The postal worker freaked out for second but I reassured them it was perfectly legal for me to ship a firearm out-of-state to an FFL. I had a copy of the FFL's license with me for verification but they never asked to see it. The postal worker looked in their regulations book, asked someone a question then proceeded to take care of it. It was a piece of cake. If your Post Office is giving you a hard time, do what some of the other posters have suggested. Go to the USPS web site and print out a copy of the regulations regarding the shipment of firearms between non-FFL and FFL parties. If, even after reading it and perhaps consulting their local hard copy, they still refuse, ask to speak to their supervisor. If they don't want to do their job, bust their chops until they do. |
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Good point. I'm mostly paranoid about breaking the law, but that could absolutely be a hassle as well! |
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I understand that some rules and regulations are "silly" but what it comes down to is being honest and forthright about what you are shipping. Again, if things go bad, your lie will only serve to complicate matters and cast a negative light on you. |
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What the hell is all of this "just don't tell 'em" and "just use UPS, but don't tell them either" crap?? It's these statements that makes me KNOW our 2nd amendment is in trouble. If you can't stand up to dumbasses when you are clearly in the right, and their OWN regulation say you are....... Forgive me if I doubt you'd stand up to anyone else...... might be too inconvenient. |
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I sold off a dozen rifles last Fall to trim my collection. All went U.S.P.S. Priority Mail, so I got familiar with the rules. I carried a copy of that ATF FAQ, just in case I encountered an ill-informed clerk. Since I knew I was absolutely legal, I always informed the clerk that I was shipping a firearm. I felt like I had nothing to hide. I'll bet there's another Post Office within a few miles down the road from the one you are having trouble at. Why not just go there? |
No, I don't believe you're correct. I've gone over the ATF regs and there is no requirement to notify the USPS when shipping a long gun that I can find. |
No, the post office regs do not say you have to notify them, and neither does the law. It says you have to certify it's unloaded, but it does NOT say that you have to tell that to the clerk. I've seen many many threads regarding this over the years and seen the actual laws dug up and posted. I am fairly certain about this. |
ATF Firearm FAQ (B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31] And there's also this paragraph from their site as well: (B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Interpret these as you will. One question to consider is whether or not the USPS is considered a "a common or contract carrier". I don't see them as being a contract carrier but common carrier, that's a good question. |
992 People that do not know Jake about the law or their own rules and regulations often run the post office. Case in point you see this poster in all post offices, which does not tell the truth (firearms are not prohibited in all cases).  Here is a quick Photoshop I did of the poster to make it more correct. 
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Well I shipped it out via fed ex with no problems! 12 pound box insured up to $900.00 cost only $9.22. The guy new the rules and he was pretty cool! For the record he told me next time I ship out a gun to not say what it is. You know its legal so send it and dont worry about it. When you mention guns to certain people, they start to freak because they know no better. With that I end my nightmare Thanks for all your help guys! 
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As far as I understand it, it is not federal LAW you are violating, but postal regulations. In DMM C024 3.0 it clearly says "The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded..." The regulations state that the post office is allowed to inspect your package to make sure it is not loaded. Obviously, the ONLY WAY that they can do that, is by you telling them what is in the package. Unless I assume that postal employees have x-ray vision, or can read my thoughts - I interpret that postal regulation to CLEARLY imply that I am required to inform them. (But, technically, I suppose you are correct that the regulation doesn't say that you are required to tell them. The requirement is implied, not explicit.) I think that the whole "I don't HAVE to tell them" is sketchy, because the implication is clear. And while the argument on the internet is harmless, in the real world I'd prefer to not have to explain it to a judge at my deportation hearing.
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I would guess that unloaded, disassembled firearm is "potentionally" hazardous in the eyes of the USPS so declaring the contents of the package can't hurt. When mailing a package, they always ask if it's anything fragile, liquid, perishable or hazardous. Heck, I've already broken in the folks at the nearby Post Office so if I have to do it again, I'm not worried about any hassles. |
Dude, first off postal regulations DO NOT have the force of law. So I am free to ignore them at the peril of not having my package delivered. Second, as the regulations DO NOT state that you must tell the clerk, any gap in that continuum is very much THEIR responsibility, NOT mine. And finally and most importantly, I have never heard of anyone EVER having a problem doing it my way. So, in sum: it's not illegal, it works and it's not against postal regulations. |
It's nice info to know that violating postal regs will not get someone into serious trouble (I'm not being sarcastic - I've always been uncertain about that, so thanks). However, I honestly believe there is a grey area here that is open to interpretation. I completely see (and agree with) your point that the regulations do not clearly and explicitly say that you have to tell. However, in my reading, I still belive that it is very clearly IMPLIED - which I'll grant you is probably not a strong argument, but one that I'll keep adhering to. |
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Although - to be fair, how would ANYONE be able to prove that you DIDN'T tell the counter-person that it was a firearm. They're not allowed to mark the package, and I've never seen anyone log it into a book or anything. So I'm not sure that would really be much of an issue. |
They couldn't and it isn't. In all the times I have shipped a long arm via USPS, not once have they asked what was in the package when they processed my insurance form. |