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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/19/2005 12:02:24 PM EDT
Hi guys,

I have bought a level III body armor vest made in Israel and now I plan on upgrading it to level IV with the addition of 2 ceramic plates also made in Israel.
Here is the link to the set of plates:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5614594469&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1&rd=1

And here is the link to the body armor vest:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Bulletproof-Vest-Level-3A-IIIA-Police-Body-Armor_W0QQitemZ7713570897QQcategoryZ395QQrdZ1QQcmdZ­ViewItem

Any advice is apreciated.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:16:38 PM EDT
My advice is that if you want to buy it to look cool, then good on you, if you want it to acctually save you then buying body armor on Ebay probably is not the way to go.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 10:18:47 AM EDT
For peace of mind I'm gonna remove one of the soft inserts from my body armor vest and test fire it with various handgun ammo.
Will let you know the results.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:49:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/22/2005 11:59:57 AM EDT by hardcorps1775]
the plates are good, they're real. they ain't as light as the new s00per plates the .mil uses, though.

just remember, the "lvl 4" on the plates only means "in conjunction with the lvl 3a vest"!
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:51:23 AM EDT
Can you confirm that the SAPI plates aren't stolen govt property? Double and triple check for that, or you may have a visit from some govt employees, wanting the plates back. You get no money back, BTW.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 11:58:18 AM EDT
they're izzy, who cares?
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 12:13:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LRRPS:
For peace of mind I'm gonna remove one of the soft inserts from my body armor vest and test fire it with various handgun ammo.
Will let you know the results.





I hope you're not planning on redeploying the panel after you shoot it!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:51:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By LRRPS:
For peace of mind I'm gonna remove one of the soft inserts from my body armor vest and test fire it with various handgun ammo.
Will let you know the results.





I hope you're not planning on redeploying the panel after you shoot it!



No, I won't.
But thanks to remind me.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 11:51:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By billclo:
Can you confirm that the SAPI plates aren't stolen govt property? Double and triple check for that, or you may have a visit from some govt employees, wanting the plates back. You get no money back, BTW.



They are israeli made, so no problem.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:01:29 PM EDT
When does your shift at the mall start?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:12:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 7:27:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 7:31:09 AM EDT by LRRPS]
Listen up folks,

I just came back from the range and here's the result of the tests on one of the soft insert coming from my israeli made body armor.

First thing to mention is that the insert is made of 17 layers of a bullet resistant material.
Each layer is in fact composed of 2 thin sheets pressed together to form one layer.

I shot it with a .22LR rifle, a Glock 17, a .45ACP pistol and a S&W 629 (.44 magnum).

.22Lr at 7 yards
the bullet went through 2 layers.

9 mm at 7 yards
the bullets (cast & FMJ) went through 3 layers.

.45 ACP at 7 yards
the bullet (FMJ) ripped through 2 layers.

.44 magnum at 7 yards
the jacketed soft point bullet pierced 4 layers.

.44 magnum at point blank range (less than 3 feet)
the jacketed soft point bullet zipped though 9 layers and came to rest on the 10th layer, also 7 inner layers were pierced propably due to the fact that the insert was laid directly on a sandy backstop instead of a 1/4" wooden plate as with the other tests.

Note that only the .22LR round didn't deform the inner surface of the insert, the other calibers do cause deformation that break holes in the 1/4" wooden back stop.
The hole on the wood made by the .44 magnum is the size of a fist.

In view of the results I doubt that someone wearing this vest can survive a .44 magnum because of the trauma involved.
I'm wondering if a trauma pad can effectively safe his life.

In conclusion, don't rely on a level IIIA vest to save your life against threats higher than .22LR unless you wear a trauma pad but I can't garantee that either.

I also fired 2 rounds of Sellier & Bellot .223 out of a 20" bbl AR15 at 200 meters.
Without surprise they went through the 17 layers with no expansion.

Here are some pics of the test:

Bullets recovered in soft insert, from left to right 9mm cast bullet, .45ACP FMJ, .44 magnum jacketed soft point. Sorry but a friend took the 9mm FMJ bullet and the .22LR standard velocity bullet.


The 44 magnum bullet rested there.


Trauma causedby the44magnum at back of the insert.


Soft insert cover, front face.

Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:52:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 9:02:06 AM EDT by billclo]
Incidentally, the fact that you were using a hard backstop totally invalidated the tests. In NIJ testing, they use a backing of modeling clay blocks. I think they allow 44mm deformation (dent depth). So unfortunately, the test wasn't indicative of real life performance. See here for more info: www.nlectc.org/testing/bodyarmor.html

You'd need to use an area 24" x24" x 5.5" deep of modeling clay to replicate their testing procedure.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been killed by a handgun/smg round that has penetrated their vest. There have been several cases where the person was killed, but not by penetration of the vest. (I recall one incident where a cop was shot with a 45-70 rifle, the slug hit his badge, and the blunt trauma killed him, but the vest wasn't penetrated. There have been numerous incidents where vests stopped rounds more powerful than they were rated for, ie, Level II-A stopped a .44 Mag. The wearers undoubtedly were not happy, but they lived.

Sorry you wasted a vest with invalid testing. Do you have the other side still for a retest?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 1:04:46 PM EDT
Thanks a lot to correct me.
Yes I still have the other side for a retest but maybe I don't need to waste $85.
There's still room on the first insert to conduct more test.
Where can I find modeling clay blocks?


Link Posted: 9/24/2005 1:52:06 PM EDT
Perhaps a hobby store, orthe poor mans method of packed mud perhaps. If nothing else, drape a slab of meat with the kevlar.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:46:34 PM EDT
Can get large blocks of clay at a pottery supply store.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:32:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 4:33:10 PM EDT by desertmoon]
I am not so sure the test is "invalid", per se. Using a hard back stop allowed the bullets more resistance to work with and I would think caused even BETTER penetration. Ergo, the hard medium, to me, showed the absolute worst case scenerio.

If I am wrong, absolutely correct me on that.

Interesting test. Good post.


ETA: by the way, LRRPS...you can come home now, the war is over!!!
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 12:34:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
I am not so sure the test is "invalid", per se. Using a hard back stop allowed the bullets more resistance to work with and I would think caused even BETTER penetration. Ergo, the hard medium, to me, showed the absolute worst case scenerio.

If I am wrong, absolutely correct me on that.

Interesting test. Good post.


ETA: by the way, LRRPS...you can come home now, the war is over!!!



The dealer who sold me the vest also recommended me to use plasticine as a back stop.
Anyone knows what plasticine is?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:32:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LRRPS:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
I am not so sure the test is "invalid", per se. Using a hard back stop allowed the bullets more resistance to work with and I would think caused even BETTER penetration. Ergo, the hard medium, to me, showed the absolute worst case scenerio.

If I am wrong, absolutely correct me on that.

Interesting test. Good post.


ETA: by the way, LRRPS...you can come home now, the war is over!!!



The dealer who sold me the vest also recommended me to use plasticine as a back stop.
Anyone knows what plasticine is?



I think that modeling clay is also known as plasticine in Britain. In any case, go to a art supply store, or hobby store (Dollar store ?) and pick yourself up some. That test was probably worse than "worst case" with the backing you used. But go with whatever you're comfortable with.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:33:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Roland_O_Gilead:
When does your shift at the mall start?



Don't forget the duct tape.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:03:07 AM EDT
Plasticine is indeed the British Empire talk for modeling clay.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:11:49 AM EDT
Thanks guys, I'm gonna buy some modeling clay and do some more tests.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:21:53 AM EDT
OP aught to give this boy some guidance.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:53:01 AM EDT
This is the last emails I got from the seller.


I think the modeling clay is not good for conducting the test since it's air-dried. what you need is the soft material childes play with. I'm sure you can find it in toy stores or in office supply. if you can't find it, just let me know and I'll do an effort to purchase it for you. The ceramic level 4 plate weigh 3.4 Kg. btw, if you're looking for personal protection, I really recommend to choose the Polyethylene plates. unless you expect an armor-piercing threat, these plates are half the weight. it makes a huge difference. two ceramic plates are $319. the insert is $83.

Regards,
Eli.

I have some more info:
The type of Plasticine you need for your test is named "Roma 1". it should be 10cm thick.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:10:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:

Originally Posted By Roland_O_Gilead:
When does your shift at the mall start?



Don't forget the duct tape.



Damn, beat me to it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 8:42:39 AM EDT
bump for more of this guys tests.
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