Posted: 2/15/2014 12:28:01 PM EDT
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I am building a house for my parents and have run into an issue with 3/4 Advantech tongue and groove subfloor. The tongue and groove will not go go together on any of the sheets. After attempting to press them together by hand I went the hammer route with no luck. They will not even start. It appears the tongue is bigger than the groove (or the same size)
I am in Maine so it is cold and damp (Advantech is supposed to be able to handle this). Its been sitting outside, tarped and in the original cardboard packaging for about 3 weeks while I built the walls and placed the trusses. Am I missing something stupid here? Got a bad batch of Advantech? Weather swelled it up (surprising if so as no swelling and warping is Advantech's entire purpose)? Any help from the hive would be appreciated. |
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About 9 years ago, I built a 6000 sqft house and used the advantec plywood. It was in wintertime so we built a small section of the house between the house and the garage that had a floor above it, for storage and to get out of the cold. I sheeted the second floor with the advantec and covered it with a tarp. When we finally got to that portion of the house, the advantec had swelled up and pushed the walls out by about 3/4" on all sides. I think that its supposed to be exposed and allowed to "breathe". Like when building a house, it generally doesn't sit around too long and swell up, even if it was exposed to a lot of wetness. Being under a tarp, it probably has been retaining too much moisture.
Maybe if you run a router with the right bit and collar, you can make the groove a little larger and the pieces will fit together. Otherwise bust out the sledge! |
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Advantech has a installation video on you tube. Adhesive in the groove should act as a lubricant.
But if the product has been stored outdoors in humid conditions even covered, expansion could occur in both the tongue and groove. You might need to bring the product into a warm dry environment to reduce its relative humidity. It might be a treated product, but it's still wood. |
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Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse.
Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. |
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Quoted: Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store..  |
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Quoted:
Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. You aren't a framing carpenter are you? |
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Ok the sledge hammer is coming out tomorrow. I will beat the shit out of it. Quoted:
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Subfloor is T&G is supposed to be tight. Put a 2x4 along the groove side of the piece being led and drive it into place using a sledge hammer. Ok the sledge hammer is coming out tomorrow. I will beat the shit out of it. Pay attention. Hit a 2x4 that is up against the subfloor. I believe that I glued mine but go by the instructions for your product. |
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Every house that I ever worked on, we just laid a 2x4 or 6 or whatever was handy down on the edge, took a sledge hammer, and tapped it into place.
Take a look at the following link. It is a factory picture of proper installation. See that yellow handled thing? It looks like a sledge to me. Why do you think that there is a sledge hammer lying on the deck? Hmmm?? See the sledge hammer here |
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You aren't a framing carpenter are you? Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. You aren't a framing carpenter are you? No , and neither is the OP. I just suggested that he doesn't go Caveman on the edge for obvious reasons, and gave him a couple suggestions quite suitable for a small DIY job. So sue me. |
| Stand on both the 2x4 and the plywood, heals on the plywood and front of your boots on the 2x4 so it does not go flying when you hit it. Have a second person stand on the tounge edge to make sure it is lined up. Heavy sledge is better as you don't have to hit it so hard. |
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It may help to start at the end without the entire two pieces touching. Get the end in then work your way to the other end.
Factory video |
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Quoted:
Ok the sledge hammer is coming out tomorrow. I will beat the shit out of it. Quoted:
Quoted:
Subfloor is T&G is supposed to be tight. Put a 2x4 along the groove side of the piece being led and drive it into place using a sledge hammer. Ok the sledge hammer is coming out tomorrow. I will beat the shit out of it. We use a three foot long 2x6. Get extras... You will destroy the 2x6s, but NOT the Adventech.
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Quoted:
You aren't a framing carpenter are you? Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. You aren't a framing carpenter are you? 
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No , and neither is the OP. I just suggested that he doesn't go Caveman on the edge for obvious reasons, and gave him a couple suggestions quite suitable for a small DIY job. So sue me. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. You aren't a framing carpenter are you? No , and neither is the OP. I just suggested that he doesn't go Caveman on the edge for obvious reasons, and gave him a couple suggestions quite suitable for a small DIY job. So sue me. I'm not going to sue you buddy. I don't see why it wouldn't work, I've just never heard of such a thing. Thing is, if you did that for a living it would take for fucking ever. |
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Stand on both the 2x4 and the plywood, heals on the plywood and front of your boots on the 2x4 so it does not go flying when you hit it. Have a second person stand on the tounge edge to make sure it is lined up. Heavy sledge is better as you don't have to hit it so hard. THIS! It really is a two person job, where the 2nd guy is standing on the seam. His heels should be on the first row with toes extending out and down onto the second sheet, while you're out, standing near the grooved edge of the same second sheet pounding it in with the 2X4 and sledge. How are you getting construction adhesive to stick in this cold weather? |
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Thanks for all the great info!
I have 2 people to help out so we are going to give the 2x4 + sledge hammer a try. The router and hydrolic methods seem like they would be much cleaner but I have 100 of these to set so I am willing to break a piece or two trying the sledge hammer first. If that doesn't work I will go on to the more exotic methods. |
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I wouldn't use a router to trim the tongue or groove. IF the panels have swelled due to moisture and being under a tarp so they can't "breathe" then trimming the T&G while they are swollen will mean that once they dry and equalize, the joints will be loose.
You might have to let them dry out, but definitely need to hit them home with a sledge hammer and a 2X on the edge. |
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Quoted:
About 9 years ago, I built a 6000 sqft house and used the advantec plywood. It was in wintertime so we built a small section of the house between the house and the garage that had a floor above it, for storage and to get out of the cold. I sheeted the second floor with the advantec and covered it with a tarp. When we finally got to that portion of the house, the advantec had swelled up and pushed the walls out by about 3/4" on all sides. I think that its supposed to be exposed and allowed to "breathe". Like when building a house, it generally doesn't sit around too long and swell up, even if it was exposed to a lot of wetness. Being under a tarp, it probably has been retaining too much moisture. Maybe if you run a router with the right bit and collar, you can make the groove a little larger and the pieces will fit together. Otherwise bust out the sledge! Tell us more about this mythical Advantech plywood you used. I have used thousands and thousands of sheets of Plywood and hundreds of sheets of Advantech sheeting but I have never seen Advantech plywood. Calling Advantech plywood is like calling paneling sheetrock |
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Thanks for all the great info! I have 2 people to help out so we are going to give the 2x4 + sledge hammer a try. The router and hydrolic methods seem like they would be much cleaner but I have 100 of these to set so I am willing to break a piece or two trying the sledge hammer first. If that doesn't work I will go on to the more exotic methods. Not to mention that routing the groove would void any warrantee if you ever have an issue... |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the great info! I have 2 people to help out so we are going to give the 2x4 + sledge hammer a try. The router and hydrolic methods seem like they would be much cleaner but I have 100 of these to set so I am willing to break a piece or two trying the sledge hammer first. If that doesn't work I will go on to the more exotic methods. You know about the jump and kick your feet method, right? To get the sheets to move where you want them to? I am wondering if leaving out the nails or screws about a foot in from the groove side would help. The good thing is that the whole "bunk" of Advantech is still in the original cardboard from the factory. I have fucktards from Bubba's lumber yard bring out a stack of T and G subfloor plywood and the assholes think they are doing me a favor by seeing how tight they can get the metal banding. It usually winds up breaking or cracking the tongue off in a couple of spots. Then they dump it right on the ground with NO cribbing. Getting that last sheet to sit flat is a bitch. I wonder if a doodad like this would help: 
Or a deck board straightener: 
Lastly, this book has a ton of tips in it, not that you should buy it, but if you see it at Barnes or Noble or Home Depot just leaf through it: http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1561585459 |
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Quoted: Subfloor is T&G is supposed to be tight. Put a 2x4 along the groove side of the piece being led and drive it into place using a sledge hammer. |
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Quoted: You aren't a framing carpenter are you? Quoted: Quoted: Don't use a sledge; you'll end up wrecking the opposite edge, making the next course fit even worse. Screw 2x4 blocks to the faces and draw them together with bar clamps or a hydraulic puller if you must use brute force. Personally, I'd set up the router and run it over every sheet. Might be tough to find the correct bit/ guide bearing though if you don't live next door to a Woodcraft store.. You aren't a framing carpenter are you?  ^^ |
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Quoted:
Thanks for all the great info! I have 2 people to help out so we are going to give the 2x4 + sledge hammer a try. Those folks can look at the tongue and groove area and stand on the new piece being installed if that gets the tongue in the right vertical position. |
and you will also need 1-3 of (depends how bad your aim is) cut about 4 feet long ... 
I have put down about 25-30 lifts of Advantech subfloor. We used the 22/32 stuff. Very heavy but it's built to last longer than you can. Get the seam started, let it fall while standing on the seam, then beat it like a 14 year old virgin. Make sure you use subfloor glue and the proper nails. Your compressor will get a workout driving those nails. Like everybody else has said its supposed to fit together tight. It will shed water without any leaks below if you install it right. I think the warranty while under construction is 500 days now? It also works well when you use in it a dump truck and haul shot rock 
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Those folks can look at the tongue and groove area and stand on the new piece being installed if that gets the tongue in the right vertical position. Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for all the great info! I have 2 people to help out so we are going to give the 2x4 + sledge hammer a try. Those folks can look at the tongue and groove area and stand on the new piece being installed if that gets the tongue in the right vertical position. Three guys works out well for that especially if the place is as big as you say. They can take turns carrying a sheet from the stack, down the first row, while the OP is spreading the PL glue on top of the joists. Once the sheet is delivered to the right spot, then they can use their feet/toes to guid the tongue into the groove. One guy can be using a screw gun or nail gun to secure the sheet, while the other guy is heading back to the stack for a brand new sheet, and OP spreads the PL glue on the next 6 joists (assuming 16" on center). |
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http://cdn.panjo.com/8V5WXyGKNH1R.jpg and you will also need 1-3 of (depends how bad your aim is) cut about 4 feet long ... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/2_By_4_Clue_Stick.jpg I have put down about 25-30 lifts of Advantech subfloor. We used the 22/32 stuff. Very heavy but it's built to last longer than you can. Get the seam started, let it fall while standing on the seam, then beat it like a 14 year old virgin. Make sure you use subfloor glue and the proper nails. Your compressor will get a workout driving those nails. Like everybody else has said its supposed to fit together tight. It will shed water without any leaks below if you install it right. I think the warranty while under construction is 500 days now? It also works well when you use in it a dump truck and haul shot rock Our OP is gonna want to have his heels pretty close to the edge of the groove side with his toes extending past the sheet and on top of the 2X4 when he beats on it with the sledge. Otherwise the 2X4 likes to bounce wherever when hit. |
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How bad is it going to be if I don't use the PL Premium? I am in northern Maine and the temp isn't going above 40 anytime soon. The specs say above 40 (although the Advantech video said above 20 which is a possibility)
My plan is ring galvanized nails + screws. Also how much harm is there in the non galvanized nails turning the wood black? Also the non galvanized nails have a bit of surface rust on the head of them. Is this a big issue? This project is taking a bit longer than I anticipated. I do have Advantech 1/2 on the walls so I am not as concerned about that however the nails bleeding the dark color on the dimensional lumber along with the nails getting a touch of rust on them is causing some sleepless nights. House wrap is going on day 1 after this roof is on. |
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Stand on both the 2x4 and the plywood, heals on the plywood and front of your boots on the 2x4 so it does not go flying when you hit it. Have a second person stand on the tounge edge to make sure it is lined up. Heavy sledge is better as you don't have to hit it so hard. That is the correct way |
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How bad is it going to be if I don't use the PL Premium? I am in northern Maine and the temp isn't going above 40 anytime soon. The specs say above 40 (although the Advantech video said above 20 which is a possibility) My plan is ring galvanized nails + screws. Also how much harm is there in the non galvanized nails turning the wood black? Also the non galvanized nails have a bit of surface rust on the head of them. Is this a big issue? This project is taking a bit longer than I anticipated. I do have Advantech 1/2 on the walls so I am not as concerned about that however the nails bleeding the dark color on the dimensional lumber along with the nails getting a touch of rust on them is causing some sleepless nights. House wrap is going on day 1 after this roof is on. I don't know. I think the main thing is if you can somehow keep the tubes of adhesive warm before you stick them in the big caulk gun. ( I have worked for a finish stair shop and for the most part the PL adhesive and yellow PVA glue was an anti-squeak measure) There was another thing in that video I have never seen done before either and that is squirting the subfloor adhesive in the groove before driving the tongue home. Probably because it will squish out and you'll be stepping in it the rest of the day. And scraping it off with a putty knife would be a pain in the ass. I don't know what you have in mind for the exterior finish or windows, but it is so much easier to put the housewrap (Tyvek???) on wall while the walls are still laying on the floor before you stand the wall up. Got a slap stapler (H2B) or a "hammer tacker"? Once the wall is stood up and braced, leave the Tyvek in place covering the window and door openings. When you're ready to install the windows and doors, THEN you cut an X shape in the Tyvek wrapping it back inside the house. I'd find a rental center and rent one of those stand up screw drive gadgets. Save your back and the screws will hold so much better. I have "hand banged" 8 penny ringshank nails at a few strategic spots in the sheet, and came back later with a screw gun, but usually it is 90 degrees F with 80% humidity (just enough to get the sweat to drip onto the safety glasses/sunglasses and be an aggravation. 
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I don't know. I think the main thing is if you can somehow keep the tubes of adhesive warm before you stick them in the big caulk gun. ( I have worked for a finish stair shop and for the most part the PL adhesive and yellow PVA glue was an anti-squeak measure) There was another thing in that video I have never seen done before either and that is squirting the subfloor adhesive in the groove before driving the tongue home. Probably because it will squish out and you'll be stepping in it the rest of the day. And scraping it off with a putty knife would be a pain in the ass. I don't know what you have in mind for the exterior finish or windows, but it is so much easier to put the housewrap (Tyvek???) on wall while the walls are still laying on the floor before you stand the wall up. Got a slap stapler (H2B) or a "hammer tacker"? Once the wall is stood up and braced, leave the Tyvek in place covering the window and door openings. When you're ready to install the windows and doors, THEN you cut an X shape in the Tyvek wrapping it back inside the house. I'd find a rental center and rent one of those stand up screw drive gadgets. Save your back and the screws will hold so much better. I have "hand banged" 8 penny ringshank nails at a few strategic spots in the sheet, and came back later with a screw gun, but usually it is 90 degrees F with 80% humidity (just enough to get the sweat to drip onto the safety glasses/sunglasses and be an aggravation.
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How bad is it going to be if I don't use the PL Premium? I am in northern Maine and the temp isn't going above 40 anytime soon. The specs say above 40 (although the Advantech video said above 20 which is a possibility) My plan is ring galvanized nails + screws. Also how much harm is there in the non galvanized nails turning the wood black? Also the non galvanized nails have a bit of surface rust on the head of them. Is this a big issue? This project is taking a bit longer than I anticipated. I do have Advantech 1/2 on the walls so I am not as concerned about that however the nails bleeding the dark color on the dimensional lumber along with the nails getting a touch of rust on them is causing some sleepless nights. House wrap is going on day 1 after this roof is on. I don't know. I think the main thing is if you can somehow keep the tubes of adhesive warm before you stick them in the big caulk gun. ( I have worked for a finish stair shop and for the most part the PL adhesive and yellow PVA glue was an anti-squeak measure) There was another thing in that video I have never seen done before either and that is squirting the subfloor adhesive in the groove before driving the tongue home. Probably because it will squish out and you'll be stepping in it the rest of the day. And scraping it off with a putty knife would be a pain in the ass. I don't know what you have in mind for the exterior finish or windows, but it is so much easier to put the housewrap (Tyvek???) on wall while the walls are still laying on the floor before you stand the wall up. Got a slap stapler (H2B) or a "hammer tacker"? Once the wall is stood up and braced, leave the Tyvek in place covering the window and door openings. When you're ready to install the windows and doors, THEN you cut an X shape in the Tyvek wrapping it back inside the house. I'd find a rental center and rent one of those stand up screw drive gadgets. Save your back and the screws will hold so much better. I have "hand banged" 8 penny ringshank nails at a few strategic spots in the sheet, and came back later with a screw gun, but usually it is 90 degrees F with 80% humidity (just enough to get the sweat to drip onto the safety glasses/sunglasses and be an aggravation.
I don't think there is any keeping it warm. My drink is frozen solid in about 30 minutes of being outside. Its wicked cold. Getting another foot of snow in addition to the foot we got yesterday. For the last month or so its day after day. I spend most of my building time digging out. Hence the lumber/nails are getting hammered with moisture. luckily its snow and not rain. I am sure the nails are fine in the wood its just disconcerting to see the heads rusting with the staining. I have the Tyvek in 9 ft rolls. I am sure that will be hell on earth! My building is 12 ft high and I am pushing the damn Advantech up the ladder. I could rent a lift genie but I am all for torturing myself at this point. |
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12 foot high, really???
I don't mean to spend your money for you, but I'd also look into renting wall jacks: 
If it is just a rectangular type wall section. Nail the wall section together, measure the diagonals for square, sheet it, cut out window/door openings, tyvek while it is still on the floor, then use the wall jacks to lift up the wall. The heads on the galvanized nails are already rusting because if they are "hand bang" 8's, your hammer is knocking the zinc off, especially if it is a wafflehead hammer. I don't know what you're using for temporary power, but I wonder if something like a heating pad or a crock pot would keep the adhesive warm. You could always try searching here: http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/ That is the forum for Fine Homebuilding magazine. You could always register, log in, and ask. It would suck to have to leave your engine idling with the tubes of adhesive up on the dash keeping warm. |
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12 foot high, really??? I don't mean to spend your money for you, but I'd also look into renting wall jacks: http://www.tranzsporter.com/tiamges/walljack2.jpg If it is just a rectangular type wall section. Nail the wall section together, measure the diagonals for square, sheet it, cut out window/door openings, tyvek while it is still on the floor, then use the wall jacks to lift up the wall. The heads on the galvanized nails are already rusting because if they are "hand bang" 8's, your hammer is knocking the zinc off, especially if it is a wafflehead hammer. I don't know what you're using for temporary power, but I wonder if something like a heating pad or a crock pot would keep the adhesive warm. You could always try searching here: http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/ That is the forum for Fine Homebuilding magazine. You could always register, log in, and ask. It would suck to have to leave your engine idling with the tubes of adhesive up on the dash keeping warm. Walls are already up. It sucked! The galvanized nails are looking good. Its the non galvanized that are rusting on the head. I used a Hitachi nail gun. I assume the piston rams the hell out of the head. I am afraid even with warm tubes the adhesive wont have time to properly set up before its frozen. We were -30 here 2 weeks ago. I have a 1/4 mile walk out to the place of the building. Before I get there. my beard is completely frozen and the drink is half ice. I am trying to do this with 3 pairs of gloves on, 4 shirts, 3 pairs of pants, one of those brown carhart carpenter suits and a jacket. Not exactly the best time of year for a noob builder. It was either winter and snow or black flies and rain. |
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Yeah, the black staining from the nail heads is normal. Are the black flies and the rain just a spring time thing in Maine? Yeah the black flies come out first after things melt off. If you spend the day outside with short sleeves your arms will be bloodied up. Then when you finally get relief in the mid to late summer the mosquitoes come out. And these are not your normal mid atlantic type mosquito attacks. They swarm you and try to kill you. Once again if you spend the day outside without every inch covered you will have mosquito bites in the 100's. Nature is hardcore up here. Can't wait to get back down south (if I ever finish this damn house). Couldnt work today. 14 inches of snow and 30mph winds. It was so bad the snow was actually flying upward instead of down. It was insane. Maine is a very wet place year round. |