[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Brisket Help (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/21/2017 7:51:48 PM EDT
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Anyone have experience smoking meat at high altitudes (9000+ ft)?
Looking to smoke a brisket, couple butts, and some ribs next weekend. Cooking temp and internal temp adjustments? |
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Just cook it at about 250 degrees until reaches 198-203. When it stalls, and it will you may wrap it tightly with foil until it gets through the stall. That will get you real close. |
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That's just above, or right at, the stalling point. Don't you mean 190ish? Quoted:
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Cooking temp at 250-275. Your internal temp should be about 170, but you want it there about 30 minutes. |
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exactly. 170 is near the stall, not when it is done. |
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Yeah, normally brisket finishes right around 200. I just know the higher altitude does funky things to boiling temps and cook times. So I don't know if I should be targeting a higher internal temp or what. Planning on longer cooking time. 
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That's just above, or right at, the stalling point. Don't you mean 190ish? Quoted:
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Cooking temp at 250-275. Your internal temp should be about 170, but you want it there about 30 minutes. 
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You're not relying on boiling water to cook it. 200 degrees at 9000' is the same as 200 degrees at sea level. 
Maybe I'm overthinking it. From my understanding the stall occurs as internal moisture evaporates - that's why the temp stays constant for so long. Just don't know what affects, if any, cooking at 9k feet would have. |
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Stall comes on at a lower temp and lasts longer I have only smoked at high altitude but I get that from looking at other posts on here I run 205-225 for usually 20 hours or so and pull when the brisket when the flat hit 203 |
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I've got the 22.5 inch wsm. I have a hard time getting that thing above 225 at the grate. Won't have the opportunity to babysit a smoker for 20 hours either, and I've got a whole packer - 15ish lbs untrimmed. Anybody ever smoke for the first half, wrap, and then finish at a higher temp in the oven? I'm sure I could cut several hours off the cook time at 300 in the oven. |
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I've got the 22.5 inch wsm. I have a hard time getting that thing above 225 at the grate. Won't have the opportunity to babysit a smoker for 20 hours either, and I've got a whole packer - 15ish lbs untrimmed. Anybody ever smoke for the first half, wrap, and then finish at a higher temp in the oven? I'm sure I could cut several hours off the cook time at 300 in the oven. Quoted:
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Stall comes on at a lower temp and lasts longer I have only smoked at high altitude but I get that from looking at other posts on here I run 205-225 for usually 20 hours or so and pull when the brisket when the flat hit 203 I took a BBQ class from one of the top teams in the nation that cooks all over the place and they specifically mentioned they do not adjust cook time or temp for altitude. And to your oven comment - absolutely, I usually got 10 to 12 hours on my WSM and that often wasn't long enough to finish my cook. After 160* or so you can wrap and at that point heat is heat. |
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yes you can but if you cook it wrapped all the way to the end it will be falling apart. Quoted:
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I've got the 22.5 inch wsm. I have a hard time getting that thing above 225 at the grate. Won't have the opportunity to babysit a smoker for 20 hours either, and I've got a whole packer - 15ish lbs untrimmed. Anybody ever smoke for the first half, wrap, and then finish at a higher temp in the oven? I'm sure I could cut several hours off the cook time at 300 in the oven. |
| I've done several cooks where I smoked it for the first half, about 6 hours, then put it in the oven, wrapped in butcher paper, at 275 for another 5 or 6 hours so I could get some sleep. Works fine. Just make sure you have something to catch all the grease that will cook out of it so it doesn't set your oven on fire. |
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Dunno how you're barely doing 225, I could get my 22.5" WSM to 300 or more easy. You sure your thermometer is calibrated correctly? Since you mention grate temp I assume you're not relying on the dome thermometer? I took a BBQ class from one of the top teams in the nation that cooks all over the place and they specifically mentioned they do not adjust cook time or temp for altitude. And to your oven comment - absolutely, I usually got 10 to 12 hours on my WSM and that often wasn't long enough to finish my cook. After 160* or so you can wrap and at that point heat is heat. I also fill the pan with water. Wonder if that is keeping the temps down! |
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I've done several cooks where I smoked it for the first half, about 6 hours, then put it in the oven, wrapped in butcher paper, at 275 for another 5 or 6 hours so I could get some sleep. Works fine. Just make sure you have something to catch all the grease that will cook out of it so it doesn't set your oven on fire. |
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Any issues with wrapping the brisket in foil before going in the oven? 
You should look into getting a remote thermometer like the Maverick 733. It will help your cooks tremendously and is much, much more accurate than the lid thermometers. |
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Yeah, normally brisket finishes right around 200. I just know the higher altitude does funky things to boiling temps and cook times. So I don't know if I should be targeting a higher internal temp or what. Planning on longer cooking time. |
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Just the lid thermometer, so lid temperature would have been more accurate to say. Guess it could be off, but it's pretty new. I also fill the pan with water. Wonder if that is keeping the temps down! But I cheat when I smoke....bought a flame boss and now I get to enjoy my cook time. |
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Try sous vide at 137 for 72 hours like Keller. Good stuff. http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/08/sous-vide-barbecue-smoked-bbq-brisket-texas-recipe.html |
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Yeah, normally brisket finishes right around 200. I just know the higher altitude does funky things to boiling temps and cook times. So I don't know if I should be targeting a higher internal temp or what. Planning on longer cooking time. Quoted:
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exactly. 170 is near the stall, not when it is done. |
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You're not relying on boiling water to cook it. 200 degrees at 9000' is the same as 200 degrees at sea level. |
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Just the lid thermometer, so lid temperature would have been more accurate to say. Guess it could be off, but it's pretty new. I also fill the pan with water. Wonder if that is keeping the temps down! Quoted:
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Dunno how you're barely doing 225, I could get my 22.5" WSM to 300 or more easy. You sure your thermometer is calibrated correctly? Since you mention grate temp I assume you're not relying on the dome thermometer? I took a BBQ class from one of the top teams in the nation that cooks all over the place and they specifically mentioned they do not adjust cook time or temp for altitude. And to your oven comment - absolutely, I usually got 10 to 12 hours on my WSM and that often wasn't long enough to finish my cook. After 160* or so you can wrap and at that point heat is heat. I also fill the pan with water. Wonder if that is keeping the temps down! As far as the water pan is concerned, yes it takes more energy to get it up to temp (I fill mine with very hot water anyway) but it helps normalize temperature swings and adds some humidity to the cooker (if that matters to you). It's not bad, but often when people try to do "high temp" cooks in the 300*+ range, they'll do it with a dry water pan. I think your biggest problem is relying on that dome thermometer. |
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But he's relying on not boiling water as much to keep it tender and juicy. At altitude the boiling temp is lower. Since stall is actually the equilibrium point where water is carrying away energy as steam at the same rate the meat is taking in the energy, it's going to come at a much lower temp (about 18 degrees less). His meat is going to have lost more water than normal when it gets there too. |
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THREE DAYS TO COOK A BRISKET!!?? 
Fuck that noise. Plus, I don't think I would want my brisket staying below 140 degrees for so long. That sounds like the perfect recipe to grow botulism to me. I've never understood why the same doesn't apply to meat in a smoke house. Is it that it takes too long to bring the meat up to the 135 temp when it's being conducted via air instead of via water contact through a vac bag? |
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I tried this recipe. Turned out dry. http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2016/08/sous-vide-barbecue-smoked-bbq-brisket-texas-recipe.html Texture preference is very individual and I have found that I like some things cooked hotter than absolutely necessary. I don't really like chicken at 140, and I like my ribs falling off the bone rather than the proper competition bite. Still, you can weigh meat before and after cooking to see how much moisture it retains, and brisket at 137 is scientifically moister than the same at 200. |
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THREE DAYS TO COOK A BRISKET!!??
Fuck that noise. Plus, I don't think I would want my brisket staying below 140 degrees for so long. That sounds like the perfect recipe to grow botulism to me. You can do some reading on Pasteurization time and temps. Many food safety dogmas have changed in the post sous vide world. |
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That recipe gives a range of cooking temps and finishes on the grill, I'd be interested in your exact methodology. Texture preference is very individual and I have found that I like some things cooked hotter than absolutely necessary. I don't really like chicken at 140, and I like my ribs falling off the bone rather than the proper competition bite. Still, you can weigh meat before and after cooking to see how much moisture it retains, and brisket at 137 is scientifically moister than the same at 200. Going to try 137 again sometime, and finish on the grill. |
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I understand that killing organisms is a function of time and temperature. Instant at 165, many hours at 135, but you can still kill just as much if the time is long. I've never understood why the same doesn't apply to meat in a smoke house. Is it that it takes too long to bring the meat up to the 135 temp when it's being conducted via air instead of via water contact through a vac bag? You don't want to just hang a slab of raw meat in a cold smoke smokehouse for days or weeks at a time without using a cure or heavy salt rub. |
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Meat slow and cold smoked in a smoke house relies on a heavy salt or nitrite/nitrate based cure to kill the bacteria rather than temperature. You don't want to just hang a slab of raw meat in a cold smoke smokehouse for days or weeks at a time without using a cure or heavy salt rub. |
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Here's a recipe:
https://www.dakotahsausagestuffer.com/Articles.asp?ID=345 4 1/2 lbs beef chuck (2.1 kg) 1/2 lb fresh beef fat (227 g) 2 1/2 tbsp pickling salt (48.7 g) 1 tsp Prague Powder #1 (5.7 g) 1 tsp coriander, ground (1.7 g) 1 tsp liquid smoke, optional (5 ml) 1 tsp garlic powder (3.1 g) 1 1/2 tsp dry mustard powder (3.45 g) 1 tbsp powdered dextrose (8.7 g) 2 tbsp coarse black pepper (15.6 g) 2 tbsp corn syrup solids (27.6 g) 1 cup non-fat dry milk (94.6 g)* 1 cup ice cold water (236 ml) 3 1/2” (90mm) fibrous casing (cut into lengths to fit your smoker) 1. Chill beef and fat to 34°F (1°C), grind one time through a 1/4” (6 mm) plate. 2. Combine ground meat with remaining ingredients, mix well until mixture is sticky and batter like. 3. Stuff freshly mixed meat batter into fibrous casings cut into lengths to fit your smoker. Refrigerate overnight to cure. 4. Next day, hang chubs in a preheated 130°F (54°C) smoker, dampers wide open, hold at this temperature for one hour. 5. Add wood chips, close vents, gradually raise (in half hour increments) smoker temperature to 170°F (77°C). 6. Hold at 170°F (77°C) until summer sausage chubs reach an internal temperature of 152°F (67°C)*. 7. Upon reaching 152°F (67°C), remove chubs, shower with cold water until internal temperature drops to 110°F (43°C). 8. Hang summer sausage at room temperature for 1 hour to bloom. 9. Refrigerate up to 7 days or vacuum seal and freeze up to 6 months. Notes: You can reduce the cooking time by removing the product from the smokehouse when it reaches an internal temperature of 125°F (52°C). Submerge in a 170°F (77°C) hot water bath until the internal temperature of the product is 152°F (67°C). Do not allow the water to get hotter than 170°F (77°C). |
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I'm talking about something like a 4" summer sausage smoked at 140 for a couple of hours, then at 180 until it hits 150 or so. I make that recipe a lot, and always use cure. It doesn't take too long for the temp to get above 125. Once it does, what's different there than sous vide, that makes cure required? How long do you think it will take a 15 lb brisket to get above 140 degree once you toss it in a pot of luke warm water? Much less the 195-203 degree at which it is most tender? |
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Dunno how you're barely doing 225, I could get my 22.5" WSM to 300 or more easy. You sure your thermometer is calibrated correctly? Since you mention grate temp I assume you're not relying on the dome thermometer? I took a BBQ class from one of the top teams in the nation that cooks all over the place and they specifically mentioned they do not adjust cook time or temp for altitude. And to your oven comment - absolutely, I usually got 10 to 12 hours on my WSM and that often wasn't long enough to finish my cook. After 160* or so you can wrap and at that point heat is heat. |
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I'm sure some of you guys make Damn Fine briskets... but you sure do it the fuggin' hard way.
- NO FAIL BRISKET - Prep - Rinse and pat dry. Add Sea Salt - and Black Pepper .... that's all. 1. Smoke Brisket for an hour or two with heavy dense smoke at low temp ( keep heat under 200F ). 
2. Put it inside a Turkey size ( big ) Baking Bag. Add 1 ounce of water - or - beer if you like. 
3. Slow cook at 200F for 8 to 10 hours. Your oven is fine, if you don't mind smelling smoke in the house that long . Before removing, put on gloves - flex and pull the meat ( inside the bag ) to see if it's completely done - enough to easily pull apart INSIDE THE BAG. 
Save the Aujus.... 
4. Slice and enjoy the best chow on on the planet. 
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I'm sure some of you guys make Damn Fine briskets... but you sure do it the fuggin' hard way. - NO FAIL BRISKET - Prep - Rinse and pat dry. Add Sea Salt - and Black Pepper .... that's all. 1. Smoke Brisket for an hour or two with heavy dense smoke at low temp ( keep heat under 200F ). http://i.imgur.com/7LR1100.jpg 2. Put it inside a Baking Bag. Add 1 ounce of water - or - beer if you like. http://i.imgur.com/dwYiE45.jpg 3. Slow cook at 200F for about 8 hours your oven is fine, if you don't mind smelling smoke in the house . Before removing, put on gloves and flex and pull the meat to see if it's completely done - enough to pull apart INSIDE THE BAG. http://i.imgur.com/Suy10BE.jpg Save the Aujus.... https://under500calories.com/photos/1000x800/106992.jpg 4. Slice and enjoy the best chow on on the planet. http://i.imgur.com/zVRMINL.jpg |
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On your WSM do you put water in the pan? I run mine dry now and use the pan and a terra-cotta plate in there for a heat sink. I can run close to 300 at the grate if I want. Never have any issues with brisket and also don't wrap.
ETA look at how to test your dome thermometer. You can change the bimetal thermometers to make them more accurate. |
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How long does it take to get a 15 lb brisket above 140 in a 225 degree smoker? Also, with brisket it's not as hard and fast a rule as it is with pork and poultry due to their inherent tendency to carry bacteria already. Ground beef and sausage should also fall under this rule because you have ground the exposed areas of the meat back into itself. But if you souse vide it in a pot of 137 degree water, I don't think it will ever get above 140 degrees. And certainly after 3 says in the souse vide at 137, it would be in the danger zone for far too long for my comfort. Unless you had it either dry rubbed with a cure or soaked in a wet cure for 3-4 weeks before hand. |