[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Blessed Money... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/1/2010 7:59:42 AM EDT
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I am a Christian and my wife and I tithe our income.
Over a period of time we have both witnessed some pretty amazing things happen to us in the way of recieving some material things in our lives. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. In my view a person should sacrifice or give something to recieve something back in return. In the world if one person does not return good or make good for something when someone has done something good for them, then usually that person that did the giving may not have such an attitude and be so generous about investing and giving to that other person under any circumstances again. This is the world. As Christians though, we are not supposed to base our giving on a return, or are we? Is expecting a return off of our giving a good thing, bad thing, or does it depend on what motivates the sower? The Bible does say that if we are obediant to God that,''He will supply all of our need according to His riches and glory.'' I would think that that statement would be simple enough for most anyone to understand, but what about more than that? Your thoughts or views? Thanks, SAE |
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I will testify to His faithfulness and provision.
The past three years have been very lean financially. Most folks, given the chance to view our ledger, would say that I'm putting it mildly. We still give. It's very little (unless you're from the slums of Calcutta...), but we give. God has seen us through every single bill. We haven't been even a day late on ANYTHING. Again, that's not because we're financial wizards. It's due to God's grace and provision. |
| We are Jews, we don't tithe,at the moment we do not belong to a congregation, but we are always provided for, we were getting close to using our last reserve several times. Always something happened to fill that account up. But we believe in G*d and try to live as the T*r*h says. |
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I am a Christian and my wife and I tithe our income. Why do you tithe? For many reasons! It is scriptural. It allows me to give back into God's kingdom in order to sustain It's progress. It does matter where we give so it also has become an exercise in dealing wisely. It also is a great opportunity to overcome covetness and idolatry concerning the love of money being the root of all evil actions and behavior. It is a great faith building exercise, for which there is no substitute. God has also been gracious to the tither guaranteeing that,''He would rebuke the devourer for our sakes.'' Not because tithing makes people righteous and worthy of God's protection, but because righteous people bring thier tithes and offerings into God's storehouse through obedience according to God's Word! All other things recieved by the giver at that point is God's reward for being receptive to His Spirit, on how He wishes to bless us at that point is His business, and His alone! In all other areas concerning testing God for a result or revelation from Him, God has said through His Word or the Bible,''You will not test the LORD your God.'' However when it comes to the tithe God has also said,''Go ahead and test me concerning your giving, and see if I don't pour out a blessing for you that you can hardly contain.'' God has to date been faithful and true to His Word on what He said that He would do for us. We need His blessing everyday. Thanks, SAE |
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It's all about having the faith to obey what God is telling us. Should we expect rewards? The Bible teaches about reward and punishment, why shouldn't we? The issue is more of recognizing the reward, many we will not see until we leave this world. This is one area that really ticks me off about democrats. The more they force me to pay for their waste, fraud and abuse, the less I have in which I can give others of my own free will and be rewarded for in heaven.
Don |
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This is a great book on this subject.
The Treasure Principle Alcorn is spot on IMO, and it is an enjoyable read. |
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Yes. The fact is, I happen to have all 7 occurrences in the New Testament of "tithe", or its variations, in front of me right now. Now why do you keep on stalling? You said it was scriptural, show me. Why should I show you something that you already have? Thanks, SAE |
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Why should I show you something that you already have? Because you can't? SAE, I find this in the Bible: Leviticus 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin. You could say that offering a lamb for a sin offering is scriptural. But does that mean that New Testament Gentile Christians should sacrifice a lamb for a sin offering? |
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Yes. The fact is, I happen to have all 7 occurrences in the New Testament of "tithe", or its variations, in front of me right now. Now why do you keep on stalling? You said it was scriptural, show me. The last time that I checked, the book of Leviticus was not among the books of the New Testament of the Bible, or do I stand in error concerning this? Thanks, SAE |
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Let's try this again. SAE, could you show your scriptural reasoning for tithing? Yes I can. However, if by your own statement you claim to have several scriptures from the New Testament concerning the,''tithe'' in front of you right now, then why have you come to your own conclusion that these are not scriptural, when in fact by your own admission they are listed and in fact do exist? Are you a Christian? Thanks, SAE |
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Let's try this again. SAE, could you show your scriptural reasoning for tithing? Yes I can, Then what is the problem? 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. However, if by your own statement you claim to have several scriptures from the New Testament concerning the,''tithe'' in front of you right now, then why have you come to your own conclusion that these are not scriptural, when in fact by your own admission they are listed and in fact do exist?
SAE, I gave you the example of Leviticus 5:6, and you won't comment on it. Are you a Christian?
I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the gospel according to 1 Cor.15:1-4. And you? SAE, I suspect you tithe because your pastor told you it was the right thing to do, and you actually can't defend it from the Bible. Prove me wrong. |
| I give to help others with various needs. I'm not religious, and don't attend church, but I do believe we are all connected at some level and by helping others,I am in effect, helping myself. I've found this to be a viable practice no matter what your beliefs are or aren't. I actually believe the tithe principle was invented after people noticed the "return" effect that inevitably occurs when you help others. |
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Let's try this again. SAE, could you show your scriptural reasoning for tithing? Yes I can, Then what is the problem? 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. However, if by your own statement you claim to have several scriptures from the New Testament concerning the,''tithe'' in front of you right now, then why have you come to your own conclusion that these are not scriptural, when in fact by your own admission they are listed and in fact do exist?
SAE, I gave you the example of Leviticus 5:6, and you won't comment on it. Are you a Christian?
I believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is the gospel according to 1 Cor.15:1-4. And you? SAE, I suspect you tithe because your pastor told you it was the right thing to do, and you actually can't defend it from the Bible. Prove me wrong. You are wrong. Thanks, SAE |
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Here is a question from www.catholic.com about this subject.
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/tithe Q:“ I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to be tithing. Is it 10 percent of my gross income or 10 percent of my net income?
”A: The obligation to tithe (i.e., to give 10 percent of one’s gross income) was binding only on the Jews. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law (Matt. 5:17), so even Jews are no longer bound by it. But this doesn’t mean we’re not obligated to support the Church—we are—but there is no longer a specific percentage required. Scripture provides insight on how Christians should give: On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper. (1 Cor. 16:2) The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Cor. 9:6–7) There is no mandatory requirement to give a specific amount of money or percentage of our income. We should each decide for ourselves how much to give and then do so in the true spirit of giving a gift. |
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SAE, I am no longer waiting on you, and I am explaining my position.
Gentile Christians should not tithe according to the law, instead, they should give according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. The basic principle here is that you cannot combine law and grace, it is either one or the other: Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Law and grace are mutually exclusive concepts. Here are the seven places tithing is mentioned in the New Testament: Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Luke 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: Hebrews 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises. Hebrews 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. Hebrews 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. Please notice that no where is the Gentile church shown to be tithing, nor are they commanded to tithe. Here is a key New Testament passage on giving: 2 Corinthians 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: 2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. 3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting. 5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness. 6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. The part in red excludes tithing, because tithing is a letter of the law obligation. |
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Ernest L. Martin has an interesting online book on tithing:
http://www.askelm.com/tithing/index.asp |
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''Since the days of your fathers, you have turned from My statutes; you have not kept them.
Return to Me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of Hosts. But you ask:''How can we return?'' ''Will a man rob God? YET YOU ARE ROBBING ME!'' You ask:''How do we rob You?'' ''By not making payments of ten percent and the contributions. You are suffering under a curse, yet you––––––the whole nation––––––are still robbing Me. Bring the FULL TEN PERCENT into the storehouse so that there may be food in My house. TEST ME IN THIS WAY,'' says the LORD of Hosts. ''See if I will not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out a blessing for you without measure. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not ruin the produce of your ground, and the vine of your field will not be barren,''says the LORD of Hosts. ''Then all the nations will consider you fortunate, for you will be a delightful land,'' says the LORD of Hosts. Malachi 3:7-12 |
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''Since the days of your fathers, you have turned from My statutes; you have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of Hosts. But you ask:''How can we return?'' ''Will a man rob God? YET YOU ARE ROBBING ME!'' You ask:''How do we rob You?'' ''By not making payments of ten percent and the contributions. You are suffering under a curse, yet you––––––the whole nation––––––are still robbing Me. Bring the FULL TEN PERCENT into the storehouse so that there may be food in My house. TEST ME IN THIS WAY,'' says the LORD of Hosts. ''See if I will not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out a blessing for you without measure. I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it will not ruin the produce of your ground, and the vine of your field will not be barren,''says the LORD of Hosts. ''Then all the nations will consider you fortunate, for you will be a delightful land,'' says the LORD of Hosts. Malachi 3:7-12 Jesus Christ did not come into the world to change the law. Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfill the law and the Prophets. If one does not agree with this, then the law has come into non-effect for that person. At that point, a man may use God's scriptures any way that he wants, in order serve his own covetness and greed. Thanks, SAE |
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I give expecting nothing in return. I don't even write it down on my taxes because I don't want any benifit to come to me from giving. I sort of understand your logic however it is legal and wise to be a good stewart of what God has given you to claim your charitable contributions. It also gives you more in which you can use to the benefit of the Kingdom. ....yes? Don |
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Should we tithe? Jesus told the Pharisees: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices––mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law––justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."
Twist it to say what you like, this is good enough for me. No, it isn't required for salvation. I believe your rewards in heaven will reflect what you do on earth. If we didn't tithe, where does the church get what it needs to survive? Is the church Biblical? Don |
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Jesus Christ did not come into the world to change the law. Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfill the law and the Prophets. If one does not agree with this, then the law has come into non-effect for that person. At that point, a man may use God's scriptures any way that he wants, in order serve his own covetness and greed. SAE, it seems that you think because Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, we should keep PART of the law. Could you explain your reasoning? |
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Jesus Christ did not come into the world to change the law. Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfill the law and the Prophets. If one does not agree with this, then the law has come into non-effect for that person. At that point, a man may use God's scriptures any way that he wants, in order serve his own covetness and greed. SAE, it seems that you think because Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, we should keep PART of the law. Could you explain your reasoning? So you believe that I merely,''think,'' that Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and the Prophets? What is it that you yourself know outside of God's word concerning these things? Thanks, SAE |
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Let me rephrase it so you can't turn it into a reason not to answer the question. SAE, it seems that because Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, you think we should keep PART of the law. Could you explain your reasoning? Have you ever brought the full ten percent, that is the gross of your paycheck amount, the tithe, and your contribution, which is a freewill offering, into God's storehouse, so that you could honor God with what is already His? Ever? Thanks, SAE |
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Yes, at one time I thought tithing was the right thing to do. Then I learned that you can't combine law and grace. Now, are you going to answer my question? Where did you learn this? From the Bible? Thanks, SAE edit: I believe that you may have something backwards here. |
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No more. SAE, you have not given a straight answer to any of my questions. Trying to have a conversation with you is a waste of time. Sorry. 
If Jesus were to stand before you at this very instant, in your opinion would He tell you to do anything that is outside the confines of the law which He gave man from the beginning? I do not speak of the methodology on how to accomplish it, but for the sake of God's law, and how that same law should be applied in every believer's life at all times? Thanks, SAE |
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Father, I ask that SAE come to understand the truth of Galatians 3:10-12. I ask this in Jesus' name, amen. If you will go over to the thread,''The Cross and the Covenant of Abraham,'' you will find some scripture I posted earlier that refers to the third chapter of Galatians refering to some of this. Your comments there will be welcome as always also. Thanks, SAE |
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Quoted: I don't belong to a church, but I give to many children's & veteran's organizations. I was brought up in churches which HAMMERED on tithing and implemented many subtle and overt methods in which to absolutely guilt people into the practice of tithing. Many campaigns were constantly being employed to spiritually brow-beat church members into giving beyond the tithe. Need was often the subjective whims of 'leadership'. I went to Sunday school with my neat little envelope at the Lutheran church. I had a neat little envelope at the Catholic church, and so on and so forth at other churches over the years. Love offerings, fellowship offerings, missionary offerings, unicef, Catholic charities, building funds, in addition to food drives (which I'm all for), and endless other 'opportunities to give' that always spring up at the church itself. The churches don't have a monopoly on determining need, though sometimes it feels like an extension of secular government. Mathew 6:1-4 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." This always comes to mind when I see the stained glass with the brass placards engraved with "In loving memory, basically funded by......" or the bricks with the names of the donors, or the additions with the name of the donors. We easily look away from the scriptures when we can cash in on vanity. Many can find endless ways to justify what ever it is they want to justify. I already (non-cheerfully) contribute to vain egomaniacs in Washington D.C., in my state, county and city, who take what God has given me, to build monuments to their vanity, to name structures and streets after their profane egos. I won't be intentionally contributing to build architectural and engineering sources of pride for those who are supposedly 'serving God in humility' by driving golden chariots and living in castles on earth while strutting around in vestments and attire that escapes my frugal sensibilities. Others can flame away at me to defend the practices of modern tithing and how their church doesn't have a strangle hold on how the funds are spent. I see need all around me, and many churches do some rather cosmetic community drives or whatever to show they still care about such things, yet more goes into "Crystal Cathedral" type of monuments, or temples of one sort or another. The whole IRS charitable giving deduction crap has become nauseating to me. Again, some may try to make me see their light on the issue, but I'm not interested in finding new ways to justify old abuses that don't agree with my gut, or my spirit, or whatever somebody else wants to call it. You will know them by their fruits! Giving a laundry list of what is between me and my LORD is nunya if you know what I mean. I don't think that the churches necessarily address the man on the street needs, nor can they as they crop up because of simple logistics. It's obvious that churches need funds to keep the lights on, pay for overhead, etc. I won't any longer be brow beaten into thinking the tithe is the exclusive monopolistic enterprise of a local building regardless if it is associated with a national or international denominational organization. Indulgences wouldn't have gone over very well with a person who thinks anything close to what I think. Cheerful giving seems best to me. Too often I hear the tales of how so and so has given such-and-such to so-and-so which seems to be done for praise, ego, etc, just as scripture says it will. I'm still a sinner who makes mistakes, sins, says dumb stuff, posts dumb stuff, but keeps getting up when I'm smashed to the dirt. |
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I give expecting nothing in return. I don't even write it down on my taxes because I don't want any benifit to come to me from giving. I sort of understand your logic however it is legal and wise to be a good stewart of what God has given you to claim your charitable contributions. It also gives you more in which you can use to the benefit of the Kingdom. ....yes? Don yes! Do not stop continuing actions concerning the Kingdom of God, according to the inactions or misunderstandings of unfaithful men including the system(s) that they have created for dealing with such. The rain falls on the just, as it does also for the unjust. We as Christians are to draw from this well also! Thanks, SAE |
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Wuzzblind, do you think God allows his law to be divided into applicable and non-applicable parts? the Bible says God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Christ came not to do away with the law but to fulfill it. The law was given so that man would know what sin is and to show that no one is able to keep it. That doesn't mean we should turn our back to it. Let's approach this a different angle. Until 1998 or so I had never tithed. It took me to be suicidal and for me to make a deal with God that I would do His will, to the best of my ability, from what I understood from the Bible. I did all I could not to tithe and have a clear conscience. I couldn't get past it so I began tithing. What I realized is that it is not so much that it mattered if tithing was required or not, it was I loved what I could do with that money for my own enjoyment. Our Bible says that the love of money was the root of all evil. Now I see just how true it is. All I can say is do what you want, just do it with a clear conscience. By your asking about this indicates you may not have a settled conscience, but who am I to say? You don't have to convince me or the next guy. You'll have to answer to the creator in the end. I wish you the best my friend! Sincerely, Don |
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I give expecting nothing in return. I don't even write it down on my taxes because I don't want any benifit to come to me from giving. I sort of understand your logic however it is legal and wise to be a good stewart of what God has given you to claim your charitable contributions. It also gives you more in which you can use to the benefit of the Kingdom. ....yes? Don And I also see your point but when I read: Mathew 6:1-4 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." I also don't use a "church" envelope or checks to give money. My wife and I are the only ones on this planet who know how much we give. God knows what you can give and sees what you give. |
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Mosaic Law was part of a particular "contract" between God and a particular "party." God said that he would provide physical blessings to the nation of Israel if they obeyed His laws. God said that he would curse the nation of Israel if they ceased to remember God and keep His commandments.
Moses read the "contract" to the nation of Israel. The people responded that they were willing participants to it. Tithing is but one part of that contract. The contract did not include Gentiles of that time period. It certainly did not include the church which was built upon the Lord Jesus Christ. |
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I agree!
What I have found is that God wants us to give cheerfully, as already quoted before. As I have grown older and my family's needs have changed, so has my giving. I can now give more and I enjoy doing so. To give what I give now when my family was young would have been a disservice to them AND God. I am convinced that I would have resented giving that much and God would've been insulted by it. (Remember Cain's sacrifice?) If you CAN tithe cheerfully and willingly, and not to the detriment of you family, (genuine needs, not wants) do so! But no, I do not believe we are held to it. |