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Sig is fucked, just hoe bigly we will see.

when .mil says here is your shit back and give us our money back it will be YUGEEEE

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For those who don't click on links.  

SIG Knew P320 Could Fire Without Trigger Pull, Lawyer Says
Susan Katz Keating 4 days ago Guns & Gear

by Susan Katz Keating and Austin Lee

Firearms manufacturer SIG Sauer has known for years that its P320 handgun could fire unexpectedly and without the shooter pulling the trigger, according to an attorney who sued the company last year in a wrongful death case involving the pistol.

A SIG engineer revealed that information while testifying under oath, attorney Robert Zimmerman told Soldier of Fortune.
“The P320 is a dangerously defective weapon in its present form,” and has been linked to more than 350 unintended discharge incidents, Zimmerman said.
“This is something that SIG predicted in their own internal studies, and they said the exact opposite in their marketing of this weapon,” he said. The studies found that the P320 had design hazards that place the gun at risk of uncommanded discharges in a couple situations. “Sig assessed that the risk could kill its users.”
Zimmerman made his comments as SIG increasingly is embattled not only over the P320 design flaw, but also for its reaction to complaints about the weapon.

In responding to public statements and in legal filings, the gun giant has come out swinging. In a statement on its website and on social media, SIG charged that an anti-gun mob and agenda-driven “grifters” had highjacked the truth for profit.
SIG lodged those complaints before Air Force Airman Brayden T. Lovan, 21, died when his P320-variant service pistol, the SIG Sauer M18, allegedly discharged without warning after the young man placed the weapon on a table. The incident occurred on July 20, while Lovan was at his first assignment, at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming.
One lawyer who represents people allegedly harmed by the weapon accused the company of trying to “discredit, shame, and intimidate” legal professionals who took on litigation against SIG. This, despite knowing that people have documented their problems with the gun.
“Defendant Sig was aware of all these hundreds of incidents at the time it issued the Statement defaming plaintiffs as dishonest, profit seeking grifters,” attorney Jeffrey Bagnell wrote in an April 22 lawsuit.
Others have said that SIG tried to intimidate them into silence.

“We’ve heard about people being sent cease-and-desist letters, threatening letters, from SIG Sauer,” said Zimmerman, who represents Lovan’s family.
The company also has taken on gun ranges that will not allow the P320 on site. In a July 29 memorandum to the gun world, SIG wrote that in the wake of “inaccurate reports about the gun,” a number of facilities “made the reactionary decision to ban the P320.” The company directed people to use a dedicated tip line in order to report the bans.
Some viewed the option as offering a “rat line” for people to enable SIG to bully the facilities into lifting their bans.
The tactic does not surprise Zimmerman, he said.

“SIG has a history of bullying and litigating against those who criticize them, including other lawyers,” he said. “Bullies go after those who can’t defend themselves.”
The cases, meanwhile, keep coming to light.

A school resource officer in Ceres, California was injured in June when her holstered Sig Sauer P320 fired without warning in the parking lot of a junior high school. The incident, captured on surveillance video, was later released by the Ceres Police Department. Just weeks earlier, in April, a similar unintentional discharge was caught on camera at a gun range in Knoxville, Tennessee. That facility has since barred the use of the P320, citing what it called “serious safety hazards.”

Houston police officer Richard Fernandez Jr. was shot in the leg by a SIG P320 semiautomatic pistol on Jan. 20 while directing traffic in advance of a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade.
“I didn’t do this to myself.” Fernandez said. “This gun malfunctioned and it fired while it was still in the holster.”
Fernandez added his name to the roster of litigants who have sued SIG. He filed his case in Harris County, Texas on July 23.

Lovan’s mother, Melinda Tucker, on Wednesday urged all military service units, federal agents, and law enforcement departments to stop using the P320 and its variants.  

A representative from SIG discontinued the call when Soldier of Fortune identified ourselves and said we wanted to talk about the P320. The press office did not respond to a voice message asking to talk about the 320. A representative who answered the “tip line” did not say how many people had called. He directed us to the press office, which did not respond to additional phone calls.

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For those who don't click on links.  

SIG Knew P320 Could Fire Without Trigger Pull, Lawyer Says
Susan Katz Keating 4 days ago Guns & Gear

by Susan Katz Keating and Austin Lee

Firearms manufacturer SIG Sauer has known for years that its P320 handgun could fire unexpectedly and without the shooter pulling the trigger, according to an attorney who sued the company last year in a wrongful death case involving the pistol.

A SIG engineer revealed that information while testifying under oath, attorney Robert Zimmerman told Soldier of Fortune.
“The P320 is a dangerously defective weapon in its present form,” and has been linked to more than 350 unintended discharge incidents, Zimmerman said.
“This is something that SIG predicted in their own internal studies, and they said the exact opposite in their marketing of this weapon,” he said. The studies found that the P320 had design hazards that place the gun at risk of uncommanded discharges in a couple situations. “Sig assessed that the risk could kill its users.”
Zimmerman made his comments as SIG increasingly is embattled not only over the P320 design flaw, but also for its reaction to complaints about the weapon.

In responding to public statements and in legal filings, the gun giant has come out swinging. In a statement on its website and on social media, SIG charged that an anti-gun mob and agenda-driven “grifters” had highjacked the truth for profit.
SIG lodged those complaints before Air Force Airman Brayden T. Lovan, 21, died when his P320-variant service pistol, the SIG Sauer M18, allegedly discharged without warning after the young man placed the weapon on a table. The incident occurred on July 20, while Lovan was at his first assignment, at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming.
One lawyer who represents people allegedly harmed by the weapon accused the company of trying to “discredit, shame, and intimidate” legal professionals who took on litigation against SIG. This, despite knowing that people have documented their problems with the gun.
“Defendant Sig was aware of all these hundreds of incidents at the time it issued the Statement defaming plaintiffs as dishonest, profit seeking grifters,” attorney Jeffrey Bagnell wrote in an April 22 lawsuit.
Others have said that SIG tried to intimidate them into silence.

“We’ve heard about people being sent cease-and-desist letters, threatening letters, from SIG Sauer,” said Zimmerman, who represents Lovan’s family.
The company also has taken on gun ranges that will not allow the P320 on site. In a July 29 memorandum to the gun world, SIG wrote that in the wake of “inaccurate reports about the gun,” a number of facilities “made the reactionary decision to ban the P320.” The company directed people to use a dedicated tip line in order to report the bans.
Some viewed the option as offering a “rat line” for people to enable SIG to bully the facilities into lifting their bans.
The tactic does not surprise Zimmerman, he said.

“SIG has a history of bullying and litigating against those who criticize them, including other lawyers,” he said. “Bullies go after those who can’t defend themselves.”
The cases, meanwhile, keep coming to light.

A school resource officer in Ceres, California was injured in June when her holstered Sig Sauer P320 fired without warning in the parking lot of a junior high school. The incident, captured on surveillance video, was later released by the Ceres Police Department. Just weeks earlier, in April, a similar unintentional discharge was caught on camera at a gun range in Knoxville, Tennessee. That facility has since barred the use of the P320, citing what it called “serious safety hazards.”

Houston police officer Richard Fernandez Jr. was shot in the leg by a SIG P320 semiautomatic pistol on Jan. 20 while directing traffic in advance of a Martin Luther King Jr. Day parade.
“I didn’t do this to myself.” Fernandez said. “This gun malfunctioned and it fired while it was still in the holster.”
Fernandez added his name to the roster of litigants who have sued SIG. He filed his case in Harris County, Texas on July 23.

Lovan’s mother, Melinda Tucker, on Wednesday urged all military service units, federal agents, and law enforcement departments to stop using the P320 and its variants.  

A representative from SIG discontinued the call when Soldier of Fortune identified ourselves and said we wanted to talk about the P320. The press office did not respond to a voice message asking to talk about the 320. A representative who answered the “tip line” did not say how many people had called. He directed us to the press office, which did not respond to additional phone calls.

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Are we supposed to be getting paid to not like Sauer?  If so, someone owes be back pay going back to the 80s.

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So it’s not ending today?

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I anticipate a court order in the near future instructing Sig to preserve all internal emails, memos and meeting minutes

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The only surprise here is that SOF magazine still exists.

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A SIG engineer revealed that information while testifying under oath, attorney Robert Zimmerman told Soldier of Fortune.

"The P320 is a dangerously defective weapon in its present form," and has been linked to more than 350 unintended discharge incidents, Zimmerman said.

"This is something that SIG predicted in their own internal studies, and they said the exact opposite in their marketing of this weapon," he said. The studies found that the P320 had design hazards that place the gun at risk of uncommanded discharges in a couple situations. "Sig assessed that the risk could kill its users."

If true, that's not a nail. It's a bomb.

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Teh Legion will save Sig …/GD

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"The company also has taken on gun ranges that will not allow the P320 on site. In a July 29 memorandum to the gun world, SIG wrote that in the wake of “inaccurate reports about the gun,” a number of facilities “made the reactionary decision to ban the P320.” The company directed people to use a dedicated tip line in order to report the bans. "

Damn, Karen

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It's just staggering to me that they handled it the way they did. It's a shame too, because Sig has been trying to pump out innovative products and pushing limits for well over a decade now. The brace, the 365, the spear and the list goes on. I'm really not interested in buying anything from them again, because now I don't trust them to do the right thing.

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Someone posted in one of the other threads that the Air Force is putting the m18s back online after an investigation

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I remember when the 320 first came out.  My local range had a Sig representative with guns to try out.  I took a 320 to the range and found the trigger to be crazy light on a gun with no external safety.  I couldn't believe people were buying them as carry guns with a trigger like that.

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Tick tock... they gonna be loved tenderly. Their apologists will be howling with rage.

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Someone posted in one of the other threads that the Air Force is putting the m18s back online after an investigation

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Well I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t really care any which way. As long as it is based in facts.

I didn’t like the original P320 trigger design. Everyone said the double click was a nothingburger. But I experienced a dead trigger because of it. If you were shooting very carefully and only applying enough pressure to trip the trigger, it was possible to not make it to the second click, which was the trigger reset. So the gun would cycle, but the trigger would be dead. It was repeatable. I sent it in and they came back that it was within spec. I was not pleased, but shortly thereafter, the upgrade hit and that changed the design to a more conventional disconnector system.

Would I expect in a defensive shoot that it would have happened? No, I’d think I’d be jamming on that trigger right through both clicks without pause. But it was disconcerting.

The drop issue was real. It was repeatable across all samples. Now, it did pass all existing drop tests at the time, but clearly the tests need to be updated. It also required a very specific angle which was unlikely to occur, but still possible and still dangerous.

I understand that some may have wanted a full blown recall. But if you wanted your pistol updated, it got updated. I really was surprised they didn’t go with a dingus, but they apparently were able to do it with physics.

Is there something mechanical still happening?  It is possible. But it’s been a while and the only way incidents have been replicated is by introducing foreign objects to pull the trigger. Maybe there is some confluence of 7 factors that come together all at the same time that make it happen. But the most logical explanations are poor handling (finger fucking, improper holstering, introducing foreign objects, etc).

So understand I’m not blindly defending SIG or the P320. SIG was really dumb to say “it ends today”. Way to dare the internet, good job. Should’ve thought that one through better.

Ultimately, if people don’t want to buy them, or they lose contracts, I don’t care. I don’t base my purchasing on what other people do. I don’t need validation that what I have is what X or Y uses. Frankly, the government rarely does anything right. Hell, the FBI used the same report to justify going from .40 to 9 as they did from 9 to .40. They just reinterpreted the results.

What I don’t like is gun people purposefully trying to destroy a manufacturer. The left is more than happy to let us eat our own. That is not to say we should cover for them. If they’re wrong, they need to be called out to make things right. But a lot of people are dying for a chance to dance on the grave of a company that has led what little innovation there has been in firearms in the past several decades.

If they get their wish, it will have just about zero effect on my life. It will be a shame, but it won’t actually impact me.

I don’t like Springfield Armory, Inc. I think they have shady marketing. They have no ties to the real Springfield Armory, and despite calling themselves “the First Name in American Firearms” most of their line is imported. Then there’s the whole IFMA stuff. I don’t want SAI to fail. I’d like them to change their name and marketing, and apologize for their BS, and won’t buy from them unless they do, but I don’t want the company to disappear.

I don’t like Glocks. But they’re perfectly fine pistols. They really should try to do something more than change whether or not there are finger grooves. I don’t want Glock to stop existing. If anything I want them to get better and be more successful.

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"The company also has taken on gun ranges that will not allow the P320 on site. In a July 29 memorandum to the gun world, SIG wrote that in the wake of “inaccurate reports about the gun,” a number of facilities “made the reactionary decision to ban the P320.” The company directed people to use a dedicated tip line in order to report the bans. "

Damn, Karen

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I anticipate a court order in the near future instructing Sig to preserve all internal emails, memos and meeting minutes

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"The company also has taken on gun ranges that will not allow the P320 on site. In a July 29 memorandum to the gun world, SIG wrote that in the wake of “inaccurate reports about the gun,” a number of facilities “made the reactionary decision to ban the P320.” The company directed people to use a dedicated tip line in order to report the bans. "

Damn, Karen

Thanks for a thoughtful and nuanced prompt. Let’s break this down and speculate responsibly on the long-term future of the SIG P320 platform and SIG Sauer USA as a company, based on the public facts, observed trends, and industry behavior.

?? Context Summary
- The SIG P320 was adopted widely, most notably by the U.S. Army as the M17/M18, giving it legitimacy and strong military-commercial crossover appeal.
- Reports of uncommanded discharges (UDs)—not just drops, but holstered discharges without trigger contact—have surfaced, primarily in U.S. law enforcement circles, often followed by lawsuits.
- SIG Sauer’s public position has been denial of design defect, with an emphasis on user error and post-sale modifications.
- A voluntary upgrade program was initiated in 2017 (for the drop safety issue), but no recall has been issued for the alleged UD issues.
- Outside the U.S., such issues appear extremely rare, raising questions about environmental, holster, or training differences.
- Despite lawsuits, P320 remains commercially successful and is still issued by U.S. military branches.

?? SPECULATIVE OUTLOOK
?? On the P320 Platform Itself
1. Quiet internal design revisions are likely to continue.
SIG may not publicly admit to a flaw but could continue to evolve the fire control unit (FCU) or sear design in future production runs. We’ve already seen subtle internal variations over the years, even within the same SKU.

2. The P320 will likely remain in military use for the foreseeable future.
Government contracts tend to weather bad press unless there's overwhelming evidence of fault. No military branch has moved to decertify or replace the M17/M18, and DOD hasn’t pushed SIG over the lawsuits.

3. Civilian market trust may erode slightly in certain circles.
Though the platform has strong fans, high-profile lawsuits and department-level removals (e.g., from the Philadelphia Transit Police) will hurt its reputation in the duty and concealed carry market, especially with newer gun buyers. Expect increased attention to alternative striker-fired platforms with cleaner safety records (e.g., Walther PDP, Glock 19, FN 509).

4. A successor design may eventually be released.
SIG could quietly retire the original P320 line over the next 5–7 years and release an evolved variant (e.g., “P325”) with a reworked fire control system. This would serve as a reputational reset without an outright recall.

?? On SIG Sauer USA as a Company
1. SIG Sauer is too diversified to be seriously damaged.
The company has strong military, law enforcement, and civilian business lines in optics, suppressors, training, ammunition, and long guns. The P320 controversy, while bad PR, is unlikely to cause existential harm—unless future class actions go poorly.

2. SIG will double down on optics-integrated platforms.
With the success of the P365 line and military contracts (e.g., NGSW with the XM7/XM250), SIG appears to be evolving into a vertically integrated “gun-to-optic-to-ammo” ecosystem company. That’s a long-term competitive advantage.

3. Future court rulings could trigger stronger design accountability.
If one of the lawsuits—especially class actions—yields a clear judicial finding of a design flaw, that could trigger massive settlements, affect insurance costs, and increase pressure on SIG to initiate a recall or reissue.

4. European SIG Sauer (Germany) is largely insulated.
Much of the litigation is hitting SIG Sauer USA, which operates separately. The German parent is already very cautious in its export and PR posture following past export scandals.

?? Bottom Line Speculation
- The P320 will survive, but its reputation may be permanently scarred in certain segments.
- SIG Sauer USA will remain strong, especially with the continued dominance of the P365 series and the huge win in the Next Generation Squad Weapons program.
- A new iteration or clean-sheet striker-fired pistol may quietly replace the P320 as SIG’s flagship in the second half of this decade.

Would you like me to add expert opinions, court case summaries, or comparison to other platform controversies like the Remington 700 or Glock “kaboom” myths?

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The only surprise here is that SOF magazine still exists.