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Posted: 12/23/2003 4:41:03 PM EDT
Poll coming

OK, I get tired of seeing all these pontifications on "How we need to secure passenger airplanes in this day and age.

My thoughts are that there will be no more hijacking of commercial passenger flights because the passengers will not let it happen. We all have seen what the consequnces are for letting that happen to a flight you are on. In the back of everyones mind, will be the thought of dying in a fiery crash into some major building in the US. Even if its a retirement folks flight to Vegas filled with 90 year old women, the hijackers will be delt with fast. People will understand, either they die the way the terrorists want, or they take a chance, and maybe live.

What do you think?

Aviator
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:45:34 PM EDT
I think that most of the average people in this country are pussies.  Sorry but most are not like the cross section you get here.  We are either miltary, prior military, LEO, or firearms enthusiast or all of that and then some.  But Average Joe Schmoe, is a PC pussy!  Wouldn't know what to do if he shit his pants while driving type.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:52:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 4:57:49 PM EDT by Johnny_Reno]
Aviator, I think you're right.  On September 11th, on an airplane over Pennsylvania, there developed a very new security system against hijackers.

No longer was it, "just sit here and wait for the good guys to save me."  Instead, it became "I have nothing to lose by trying every method at my disposal to kill you."

I believe that current threats involving aircraft are:


1) Taking over a cargo aircraft with a 3-4 man flight crew. (In a Johnny Reno world, [b]all[/b] pilots of non-passenger aircraft are [b]required[/b] to be armed.)

2) Crop dusters doing a little chem or bio dusting.

3) Destroying passenger aircraft in flight via shoulder launched missile or onboard bomb.


The days of a 9/11 style hijacking are long gone. I believe in even an overseas owned airline, the passengers would do the same.  They have seen the images as well.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 4:55:33 PM EDT
Thats why the terrorists are looking into [b]cargo[/b] aircraft. They learned from Sept 11th faster than we did it seems.

Aviator
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:02:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator:
Thats why the terrorists are looking into [b]cargo[/b] aircraft. They learned from Sept 11th faster than we did it seems.

Aviator
View Quote


Yes, it does appear as that could be a problem. I certainly hope that the cargo aircraft flight crews have been briefed as I suspect they have and have instituted precautions against this possibility.  However, I am concerned about the security of international flights.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:06:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Originally Posted By Aviator:
Thats why the terrorists are looking into [b]cargo[/b] aircraft. They learned from Sept 11th faster than we did it seems.

Aviator
View Quote


Yes, it does appear as that could be a problem. I certainly hope that the cargo aircraft flight crews have been briefed as I suspect they have and have instituted precautions against this possibility.  However, I am concerned about the security of international flights.
View Quote
And the majority of people won't wake up to the reality of cargo planes getting hijacked until it happens.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:07:46 PM EDT
I am sorry to say that I disagree.  It can and possibly will happen again.  The libs are already forgetting.  They are pansifying the nation all over again.  When was the last time you heard anything in the news about air marshalls or arming pilots?  The only ones that keep these issues alive are the conservatives.  
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:12:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 5:12:57 PM EDT by Aviator]
I'll have to disagree with you Psy. I think survival is a basic human need, and no matter what people hear on TV or the radio, if in fact they are on an aircraft that is taken over, the survival instinct will kick in, and they will fight.


Aviator
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:12:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 5:18:11 PM EDT by Johnny_Reno]
Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:
I am sorry to say that I disagree.  It can and possibly will happen again.  The libs are already forgetting.  They are pansifying the nation all over again.  When was the last time you heard anything in the news about air marshalls or arming pilots?  The only ones that keep these issues alive are the conservatives.  
View Quote


On 9/11, about 1 in 10 passengers on plane #4  stood up to the hijackers.  I don't have any reason to believe that the same or even a greater ratio of passengers wouldn't be uttering "let's roll." I know I would.

Let me add to this...

On 9/11, if I had been on planes 1-3, I would  not have done anything, instead looking for a safe place to duck my head for the retaking of the aircraft by Delta/ST6.  Instead, I would have been one of the dead that day.

Now, I [b]know[/b] that I would be one of those trying to take the plane back.  To not do so would be suicide - something I'm not going to do.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:19:23 PM EDT
I don't think there is any one thing to do, it's a variety of things that will offer the best protection. On commercial flights, arming the pilots, strengthening cockpit doors, having a camera directed to the passenger cabin so the crew can see what's going on and increasing our ability to keep explosive devices out of the luggage are all needed. Air marshals on every flight would also be great, but I doubt they will ever have enough manpower to cover all flights. However covering as many as possible could not hurt.

My biggest worry as far as aviation would be cargo craft, private planes and perhaps international flights from Mexico or Canada. Also sabotage from the ground or using a shoulder fired missile are possibilities. But missiles such as the SA-7 use a small warhead and hopefully would not have the punch to take down a full size airliner. Even if it took out one engine, the plane could make an emergency landing, i.e. the recent situation in Iraq. Hopefully the warhead would not have the power to do significant damage to the critical structures.

I also worry about the use of business type planes that may appear legit but are not. If they have that level of connections to get all the necessary licensing, etc, then they could sneak up on us that way. Hopefully we have been paying attention to this kind of stuff.

Still, I feel the most likely means of attacking the US at this point would be on the water or through the traditional car bomb type stuff. Many major US cities have water access of some sort and many boats could carry a large enough charge to do major damage if it got close enough to the intended target. I also feel the waterways are most vulnerable and difficult to secure. And when you look at the damage and carnage many of these car bombers have done recently, you can imagine what 20 or so attacks simultaneously could do.

We are all thinking of Al-Qaida using some sort of super sophisticated method of attacking us. But using a more simple approach in big numbers could be just as much deadly if not more. I honestly don't think they are that sophisticated personally. What have they done to show that they are such? Septemeber 11th seemed sophisticated but the truth is we should have and could have stopped that dozens of times had people been paying attention and not been caught thinking we couldn't be hit. Now we are ready, the military and police are ready and most of the citizens are at least aware of the threat. IMHO, the liklihood they could pull off another 9/11 type attack using the same means would be very, very difficult. Airport secure, while certainly not perfect is much better. The cockpits are better protected by armed pilots, stronger doors (with no flight attendents who have keys to open them) and most passengers in this country post-9/11 are automatically conditioned to fight back now when faced with hijackings. So if they hit us I really feel it will be in a different manner. But personally, this may all just be misinformation put out by Al-Qaida just to shake up the people of this country in an effort to spoil our holiday. I will be alert and prepared in case something happens, but I am not going to allow myself to get too caught up by these threats.

-CH  
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 5:47:13 PM EDT
Lines of defense:

Air Marshals
Armed Flight Crews
Passengers

Everyone should be reminded based on the training manuals and tapes that have been recovered that any terrorist op is a one way ticket for them.  They fully intend to kill everyone and end up dead in the process.  With that being the MO, anyone involved in an atttack needs to fight like it's your last minute on earth, because if you don't, it WILL be.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 7:03:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator:
Poll coming

OK, I get tired of seeing all these pontifications on "How we [b]need[/b] to secure passenger airplanes in this day and age.

My thoughts are that there will be no more hijacking of commercial passenger flights because the passengers will not let it happen. We all have seen what the consequnces are for letting that happen to a flight you are on. In the back of everyones mind, will be the thought of dying in a fiery crash into some major building in the US. Even if its a retirement folks flight to Vegas filled with 90 year old women, the hijackers will be delt with fast. People will understand, either they die the way the terrorists want, or they take a chance, and maybe live.

What do you think?

Aviator
View Quote


What if it's a plane full of Democrats?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:26:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 8:27:31 PM EDT by ilike9s]
The armed passengers on board...no need for FAMs or armed pilots.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:50:56 PM EDT
Separate cockpit entrance
View Quote


[img]http://www.lslproducts.com/skyjackcartoon.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:03:15 PM EDT
i don't think their will be another successful hijacking w/i the next 5-10 years, passengers (in the US atleast) just aren't gonna sit back and take it
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:47:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
I believe that current threats involving aircraft are:


1) Taking over a cargo aircraft with a 3-4 man flight crew. (In a Johnny Reno world, [b]all[/b] pilots of non-passenger aircraft are [b]required[/b] to be armed.)
View Quote


I think you'll find most cargo planes only have a two man crew. (unless it's a long international flight)

general aviation planes are a credible threat
G5's are not smal airplanes!
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 10:52:27 PM EDT
there certainly wont be another hijacking....i was going home on leave in my class A uniform and i was one of their "random" searches and had to take my shoes off and crap. i thought it was pretty stupid, but at least the people acted somewhat professional
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 11:27:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 11:57:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
At some point it will probably happen again, but not in the near future.  Many years from now, alot of the people that weren't born by 9/11/01 will not know, or care to know, of what happened and how people stood up and fought back.
View Quote


Exactly.  Years ago people used to rob banks.  Then, all the banks hired security and had armed guards, and the robberies subsided.  Now, people rob banks w/ armed guards inside.  

The technique will change, but the action won't.  As long as there's someone willing, they'll find a way.  

Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, I don't think Air Marshals are the "best" form of security for aircraft.  Sure, they're effective in creating an increased risk of failure for would be hijackers, but the % of flights that actually have Air Marshals on them is miniscule.  I think better prescreening techniques need to be invented, and all this TSA shit that takes 2 hours to get through needs to be done away w/.  
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:03:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
i don't think their will be another successful hijacking w/i the next 5-10 years, passengers (in the US atleast) just aren't gonna sit back and take it
View Quote



True, thier best option for planes would be to go for cargo aircraft, or international flights with people less likley to resist.
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