[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AC compressor went.... (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/22/2012 10:40:40 AM EDT
So I fired up the AC today to make sure it was OK after the winter ––pulled the cover off the outside unit and cleaned the inside coil etc and fired it up. Sure enough everything came up alright but no cold air  dagnabit. Had a local AC company come by and look at it and they say the compressor is gone. They said that replacing the compressor would cost almost as much as a new unit and the outside unit is 10+ yrs old. During the course of our conversation he suggested that it might be better to replace the outside unit with a heat pump and change the inside coil as well ––nesscessary with the heat pump and also the inside coil is 10 plus yrs old (1999) and in kinda rough shape (rust on frame ––leaked and repaired once a few years back ) they claim it will save us on propane down to 20deg when the regular furnace will take over ,we do use mucho propane heating in the fall and spring when its still cold. The guy (probably a sales dude ) is comming out tomorrow to give us a written estimate but we are probably looking at 5K or so the current unit is a goodman/tappan and its either 3 or 4 ton was not sure from what the guy said, if memory serves its 4 ton our house is about 2600sq ft and is forced air heat and AC what say the hive fix or replace it ?
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I operate an HVAC company. Ask him how the compressor is bad? If it is grounded, it should be tripping breaker. If the seals are shot, the pressures will be way out of whack. Ask him to show you the pressures. The prices of 22 are starting to go up a lot, but it is far from an obsolete freon, the majority of units are 22 and will be for a long time.
I would also get another opinion. He sounds like more of a salesman than a technician to me. A lot of companies will do anything to sell you a new system. Granted with a unit from 1999 you are getting to the middle ground of a high cost repair like a compressor change may not be worth it. Report back and I will help you as much as I can. |
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We are on propane for the furnace and HWH ––that would not change the furnace would still be there for when it gets down below 30-40 degrees. I just dot know enough about heat pumps to know whether or not its going to work the way they say it will. I have an associate who has his own heating and air co in another part of the state (to far for him to come take a look at it for me ) I have put in a call to him and he will call me back tonite I am sure. If it makes a difference the outside unit starts and runs it just will not build pressure according to the guy that was here. He got out his manifold and meter
hooked it up and had me run the unit for him and did some checks for a few mins –– I did not get the impression he was BSing or anything he did take the time to troubleshoot it, not just look at it and go "its shot you need a new one" so unless there is some check I can perform myself I have to trust his diagnoses. I am only fluent enough in hvac to be dangerous. ETA the breaker did trip one or twice after I turned it on. I did not see what the pressures were I have a set of gauges for Automotive AC but they have been used with 134A so I should not hook them up to that unit right? |
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Probably is best to bite the bullet and go with a new R410a based system to replace your obsolete R22 system. Repairing the R22 unit is only delaying the inevitible.... replacing it with an R410a unit. 
-ZA This^ Replace it with a new complete inside and out R-410A Heat Pump system with gas back up (if you like the gas) and it will not only save you money but give you a more comfortable system. 
BigDozer66 |
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We are on propane for the furnace and HWH ––that would not change the furnace would still be there for when it gets down below 30-40 degrees. I just dot know enough about heat pumps to know whether or not its going to work the way they say it will. I have an associate who has his own heating and air co in another part of the state (to far for him to come take a look at it for me ) I have put in a call to him and he will call me back tonite I am sure. If it makes a difference the outside unit starts and runs it just will not build pressure according to the guy that was here. He got out his manifold and meter hooked it up and had me run the unit for him and did some checks for a few mins –– I did not get the impression he was BSing or anything he did take the time to troubleshoot it, not just look at it and go "its shot you need a new one" so unless there is some check I can perform myself I have to trust his diagnoses. I am only fluent enough in hvac to be dangerous. ETA the breaker did trip one or twice after I turned it on. I did not see what the pressures were I have a set of gauges for Automotive AC but they have been used with 134A so I should not hook them up to that unit right? Heat pumps today, with R-410A, work so much better than old R-22 units did. Your partner will probably give you the same advise as I am. 
Do not hook up the R-134A gauges on it! (They probably would not fit anyway)
BigDozer66 |
| Yeah I did not think hooking up my gauges would be a good idea. This guy did not seem like a sales type––that guy is gonna come by tomorrow and give us estimates. I will definitely get more than one est from a few competitors before I allow anyone to replace it. I just want to be sure I don't get any calls from the domestic tranquility regulator that the AC isn't cooling enough this year ––toward the end of last summer she complained that it was not cooling that well during the day ––while I am out sweating my !@$%^&!! off somewhere..... |
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How do I test the capacitor to the compressor –– the fan on top runs when turned on but I cant tell with the noise if the compressor is running and since I had to a 1/4 wrench to get the screws out of the panel I doubt he did access it ––there was so much spider web and leaf debris. I can see where he tapped his gauges in at the bottom where its open but the electric panel has not been opened since it was installed ––and yes its an R22 system, but the nomenclature plate was so faded I cant tell anything else
So if the fan runs the cap is OK ? 
this was after I got the panel off and cleaned it out 
dosent say much but here is the panel 
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Our AC compressor quit working last year on the first or second operation in the Spring. The fan on top will work, but the run/start cap is what kicks over the compressor to avoid pulling big amp draws. If the cap is bad, it may be bulged like mine was, or leaking fluid. You can pull them (the look like a beer can with a few poles where the wires attach at the top) and test their resistance with a meter. Mine was $23 from Grainger and it fired right up.
Worth a check if you can remove the outer sheet metal cover. They are usually on the side with the 220V lead from the house. |
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According to the schematic the fan and compressor work of of opposite sides of the dual cap can I swap the wires and see if only the compressor runs ?
The other leg of each motor goes to a common source the comp thru a relay and the fan thru the board mounted below (which is the low voltage /thermostat interface) ETA the connectors are pretty corroded and rsty on the capacitor and I cant move them even a little (dont worry I am being careful not to zap myself if the cap is charged !!) So I am wondering if the cap is an issue.... |
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Offctr, the rusty cylinder is the run/start capacitor. Pull the wires (take few digital pics of their location for easy replacement) and drive down to your Grainger and buy a replacement. It will have the specs on the body. It's a cheap $20~$25 gamble, but it's the first reason a compressor won't start, and the cheapest to fix. The alternative is a new compressor, or a new outside unit.
PULL THE SERVICE DISCONNECT on your house to cut power to the unit before touching ANY WIRING. Please. It's usually a on/off lever or a pull out toggle/key. |
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My heat pump went 20 years, I replaced it because I wanted a more efficient unit. It still worked fine.
I was glad that I did because they resized all the ductwork and the new set up does not make that "thrumming" noise when it runs, like th noise you get with only the car's rear window open on the highway So yours needing replacement at ten years seems fishy. |
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Changing a compressor out will not cost you over $2000 even if it is a 4 ton unit. BUT, get your unit changed out anyways because Tappan is a POS AND your unit is wayyyyyyy too close to you house, which harms its performance big time. Credentials: service technician for 7 years.
And from personal experience, if he just said the compressor is gone, thats just weird. I know i tell my customers whether its shorted out (would cause breakers to trip), or if the seals are shot, or if it's stuck, or grounded, so on so forth, i never just say its gone to a better place without an accurate diagnosis. |
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My heat pump went 20 years, I replaced it because I wanted a more efficient unit. It still worked fine. I was glad that I did because they resized all the ductwork and the new set up does not make that "thrumming" noise when it runs, like th noise you get with only the car's rear window open on the highway So yours needing replacement at ten years seems fishy. Average life of a unit is 10-14 years, fyi (newer units they make today anyways, i still see some units that are way older than me out there working ok) |
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Like stated, the most obvious way to tell if a capacitor is bad is it will be bulged or leaking. If it isn't, assuming you don't have a capacitor tester I would just replace it and see what happens.
When the condenser fan is running put your hand on the copper lines going to the unit and see if you feel temperature differences from the outside temperature. Let us know what you find. |
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My guy says a bottle of R22 recently went from $200 to almost $800 ––wonder If I can recover all the R22 in there, sell it ad pay for a new unit partly  I dont know about 800, but 500 plus... yea. Quoted:
With the fan running there is no change in the refrigerant lines or the coil they stay room temp. I have the cap out and will hopefully grab a replacement tomorrow http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g306/offctr/IMG_0097.jpg no useful part numbers recovered ......figures You dont need part numbers, just MFD rating. |
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from what I can read its 440v. The compressor is a Copeland CR42K6-PFV-220 and the unit is a Tappan (nordyne) S3BA-048K if any one can figure out what the values are for this cap.
Its amazing how complex something can look till you get in it and find out how little there actually is....and how something simple can really f with you.... |
| My friend has an account at some HVAC places that have outlets in Pitt since I am gona be up in the county tomorrow working I will run to one or two and he will let me use his account ––said they should be able to match it up at the counter. He is also gonna get me some prices on new units if I have to go that way. This has been a day. Day off ––what day off ? Murphy and the man above have a wicked sense of humor some days. |
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Changing a compressor out will not cost you over $2000 even if it is a 4 ton unit. BUT, get your unit changed out anyways because Tappan is a POS AND your unit is wayyyyyyy too close to you house, which harms its performance big time. Credentials: service technician for 7 years.
And from personal experience, if he just said the compressor is gone, thats just weird. I know i tell my customers whether its shorted out (would cause breakers to trip), or if the seals are shot, or if it's stuck, or grounded, so on so forth, i never just say its gone to a better place without an accurate diagnosis. I quoted a residential compressor change out today for over $2000. That included refrigerant and filter drier changes. When it burned out, it blew the terminals out and vented 10lbs of refrigerant. totally agree on the red text!! |
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A proper diagnosis would include, ohming out the compressor motor windings and, start parts. If just the run capacitor is bad, the compressor may just hum and go off on internal overload. May also trip the
breaker. An amp reading on start up will tell you if it is going off on what is called, Locked Rotor Amps. If it goes off on internal overload before reaching LRA it may just be the run capacitor. If this is the case, it would be worth changing the capacitor to see if it will start. From the looks of the other parts inside, contactor and time delay. I would change those as well if it starts. There is also a hard start kit you could add that would give it an extra boost on starting. Wash the outside coil as well.Change you indoor filter on a regular basis. If it starts and is low on refrigerant, have a leak check and repair done. There is also a drop in replacement now for R22. You have to remove all the 22 and add a new liquid line drier to the system. Then charge in the replacement refrigerant.What you are looking for on that capacitor are some #s There are 2 #s that may read something like 5/35 Mfd and then a voltage say 330 volts the smaller number would be the rating for the fan and, the lager for the compressor.They must match the components. you can go up in the voltage rating but not down. model and serial #s off the unit itself will help if not on the capacitor. And yes the unit needs more space around it for the air to get through the coil. Hope this helps. 
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Well dadblamiit dagnabit!! as soon as I took the cover off the terminals on the compressor the yellow wire fell out and the crimp on end had arced to ground on the terminal case edge and fried itself ––probably popped the breaker as well SO i need to reterm that wire and reconnect ––the compressor terminal is OK and I am gonna grab a new cap at Johnstone while I am out and about today anyway. What gets me is if the guy yesterday had done 15 mins due dilligence he would have found it and I would have gladly paid for the service call and repair. I think there were maybe 6-8 screws all told to get here ( and a plethora of experts all across ARFCOM ! )
Hopefully I get this all cleaned up and back together tonite and will be back up and running shortly after that. To those that want to know the yellow wire terminates on the contactor the blue wire runs to the capacitor. |
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Replace it now before the refrigerant you use in this one skyrockets and cost you a shitload over time. Too late. R22 almost tripled in price in Feb. doubled some are charging , or trying to charge 40 -45 per # around here , currently 30 # cylinder running 320-350 clams. |
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Replace it now before the refrigerant you use in this one skyrockets and cost you a shitload over time. Too late. R22 almost tripled in price in Feb. doubled some are charging , or trying to charge 40 -45 per # around here , currently 30 # cylinder running 320-350 clams. I'm not going to post wholesale pricing on an open forum, but we went up by 2.5x over a week end. |
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Got the cap and a compressor reterm kit at the hvac parts house this am all told less than 40 bucks will get it put in ltr as I have to take the girls to volleyball after work .......
Plus I found out today someone left a few r22 cylinders (?) In the supply cage at our office ,, we don't do any hvac just plumbing so I asked the supply guy if he wanted them gone
Now they are in the garage.
and yes they are new and sealed |
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Got the cap and a compressor reterm kit at the hvac parts house this am all told less than 40 bucks will get it put in ltr as I have to take the girls to volleyball after work ....... Plus I found out today someone left a few r22 cylinders (?) In the supply cage at our office ,, we don't do any hvac just plumbing so I asked the supply guy if he wanted them gone
Now they are in the garage.
and yes they are new and sealed SCORE!!!
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Replace it now before the refrigerant you use in this one skyrockets and cost you a shitload over time. Too late. R22 almost tripled in price in Feb. doubled some are charging , or trying to charge 40 -45 per # around here , currently 30 # cylinder running 320-350 clams. I'm not going to post wholesale pricing on an open forum, but we went up by 2.5x over a week end. I don't post the wholesale pricing either but like you said it jumped uncontrollably for a while. In 3 or 4 days we were pricing and selling it hour by hour! 
BigDozer66 |
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Replace it now before the refrigerant you use in this one skyrockets and cost you a shitload over time. Too late. R22 almost tripled in price in Feb. doubled some are charging , or trying to charge 40 -45 per # around here , currently 30 # cylinder running 320-350 clams. I'm not going to post wholesale pricing on an open forum, but we went up by 2.5x over a week end. I don't post the wholesale pricing either but like you said it jumped uncontrollably for a while. In 3 or 4 days we were pricing and selling it hour by hour!
BigDozer66 We received the first notice something may happen on a Tuesday, IIRC. I had a lot of phone calls from customers asking me what and when, and I told them they had the same info I did. I only had 1 order a skid to be delivered on Monday. Monday was the day it made that huge jump. We were put on lockdown WRT pricing - no adjustments allowed to system pricing. We had to get regional permission to sell that skid at what I had quoted, and still had to explain it to the VP of Operations. We still are barred from adjusting prices on R22. |
Got a bill in the mail today for a $75 "diagnostic fee" the kid never mentioned a diagnostic fee or service charge or had me sign anything etc I have half a mind to hand their estimator who is coming Monday $75 with the bill and tell him to shove his "estimate" up his $@@! If you charge a diagnostic, trip or service fee you should be up front about it. I wasnt pissed off about his mis-diagnoses before ––now I am.
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Got a bill in the mail today for a $75 "diagnostic fee" the kid never mentioned a diagnostic fee or service charge or had me sign anything etc I have half a mind to hand their estimator who is coming Monday $75 with the bill and tell him to shove his "estimate" up his $@@! If you charge a diagnostic, trip or service fee you should be up front about it. I wasnt pissed off about his mis-diagnoses before ––now I am.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g306/offctr/IMG_0104.jpg http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g306/offctr/IMG_0105.jpg Um, everybody charges a diagnostic fee, the whole staying in business thing, you know. |
| Not everybody does, and any set fees should be mentioned up front ––and should def be mentioned and/or collected before leaving the job. We dont charge diagnostic fees and any thing we plan on charging the customer we lay out and have them agree to before hand. Residential customers and commercial customers without an direct bill out account are paid upon completion of the work. Excavations require a down payment commensurate with the size of the job before starting to dig. I also remember asking the guy if I owed him anything before he left and he said no.... so its kind of a BS move. I am certianly not opposed to anyone making money for what they do but you should be up front with your customers about trip charges service fees and diagnostic fees. |
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its alive––ALIVE––- AAALLIIVEE!
Once I got the wire re termed and hooked back up I temporarily buttoned it back up and fired it up ––heard the compressor start right off and had COLD COLD air in the kitchen register (longest supply duct run in the house) right away. Have not even changed out the cap yet ––may just keep it spare for now. So it was just the wire come off the one terminal that caused the whole thing. |
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Not everybody does, and any set fees should be mentioned up front ––and should def be mentioned and/or collected before leaving the job. We dont charge diagnostic fees and any thing we plan on charging the customer we lay out and have them agree to before hand. Residential customers and commercial customers without an direct bill out account are paid upon completion of the work. Excavations require a down payment commensurate with the size of the job before starting to dig. I also remember asking the guy if I owed him anything before he left and he said no.... so its kind of a BS move. I am certianly not opposed to anyone making money for what they do but you should be up front with your customers about trip charges service fees and diagnostic fees. Im not defending the guy, as i can see he either just wanted to sell you a unit or did not care enough to even open the panel. However, you cant complain for something you would have had to pay anyways, just because you thought it was free does not justify their billing for the said work. With that being said, if i were you, i would probably call them back and tell them what a POS their tech is for not doing his job and try to get the bill waived, since he didnt actually do anything. Our company tells customer up front about the diag. fees and we collect if you are a new customer. |
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Not everybody does, and any set fees should be mentioned up front ––and should def be mentioned and/or collected before leaving the job. We dont charge diagnostic fees and any thing we plan on charging the customer we lay out and have them agree to before hand. Residential customers and commercial customers without an direct bill out account are paid upon completion of the work. Excavations require a down payment commensurate with the size of the job before starting to dig. I also remember asking the guy if I owed him anything before he left and he said no.... so its kind of a BS move. I am certianly not opposed to anyone making money for what they do but you should be up front with your customers about trip charges service fees and diagnostic fees. Im not defending the guy, as i can see he either just wanted to sell you a unit or did not care enough to even open the panel. However, you cant complain for something you would have had to pay anyways, just because you thought it was free does not justify their billing for the said work. With that being said, if i were you, i would probably call them back and tell them what a POS their tech is for not doing his job and try to get the bill waived, since he didnt actually do anything. Our company tells customer up front about the diag. fees and we collect if you are a new customer. HORSE SHIT! The fucking guy either was incompetent or a bald-faced liar. Either way, he was about to cost the OP a small, UNNECESSARY fortune.
I wouldn't pay them a fucking DIME and I'd DAMN sure tell his boss why. |