[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG's Real P320 Problem is no Longer Uncommanded Discharges - Gun Jesus (Page 2 of 5)
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Quoted: They could solve their reputation problem by peddling some BS about firing all engineers working on the 320 problem, hire a new team of the best engineers money can buy, claim the new team has identified the problem, and that they're issuing a full and unconditional recall of every 320 and will either refund full MSRP or issue a voucher for some other sig product of similar value. eta that probably wouldnt help them with all the ongoing lawsuits though so I dont expect they would Quoted: Quoted: Summary : 2 problems. One, Sig doesn't yet know what is causing the UDs, but can probably fix it eventually. Two, brand reputational damage that they will never overcome. They could solve their reputation problem by peddling some BS about firing all engineers working on the 320 problem, hire a new team of the best engineers money can buy, claim the new team has identified the problem, and that they're issuing a full and unconditional recall of every 320 and will either refund full MSRP or issue a voucher for some other sig product of similar value. eta that probably wouldnt help them with all the ongoing lawsuits though so I dont expect they would Just fire the damn CEO and whatever bean counters that thought it would be a good idea to use Indian MIM parts with little to no oversight. |
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Quoted: Just fire the damn CEO and whatever bean counters that thought it would be a good idea to use Indian MIM parts with little to no oversight. They didn’t fire him when he was literally convicted of arms dealing. It’s on them. Depending on how foreign convictions are viewed I don’t even know if he can legally own firearms. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2019-04-03/sig-sauer-ceo-avoids-jail-time-for-role-in-illegal-arms-shipment |
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IMO, SIG knows exactly what is wrong with the 320 but can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. The method of striker release from an (intended) pull of the trigger is faulty as designed and can’t be “Fixed” using the factory chassis and slide. Whether it’s ’tolerance stacking’ on their striker assembly, weakened springs, whatever, there is no mechanical fix possible that can be solved with a few new MIM parts and a different spring supplier. If the change requires a new design, then it requires a new Chassis. That means hundreds of thousands of new Firearms given that the chassis is the new serial numbered part. A new striker release method would almost certainly require a new slide as well-which means huge cost…. Basically the only thing left of the gun not being replaced is the $.035 worth of plastic injection molded grip assembly. I.e., they have to replace ever gun out there that they sold and replace them with brand new. It also means tracking down all of the guns that were sold on to second, third, and fourth owners and getting them to take a new gun-possibly with paperwork the owners don’t want. There is no good way out of this-in the Automotive industry, they are happy to pay out tens of millions of dollars in lawsuit losses because it’s cheaper than a factory recall and eventually the cars will be old enough that they won’t be on the hook for their faulty design anymore. Sig may be using that tactic. Problem is, now that the cat is out of the bag, even if only 20% of the suits are successful against them, there will be enough of them coming that it will still be enough to bankrupt them. And bankruptcy won’t be the end of the world-they will pop up under a different name and resume business as usual. People tend to forget over time and things will eventually go back to normal….. Best outcome right now would be for SIG to make a modernized version of the 226, and send them off with a full refund check in exchange for the faulty or suspect 320’s. But they won’t do that, they can’t afford to. |
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Quoted: They could solve their reputation problem by peddling some BS about firing all engineers working on the 320 problem, hire a new team of the best engineers money can buy, claim the new team has identified the problem, and that they're issuing a full and unconditional recall of every 320 and will either refund full MSRP or issue a voucher for some other sig product of similar value. eta that probably wouldnt help them with all the ongoing lawsuits though so I dont expect they would It’d be expensive but that could be the safest route forward, Issue a recall and acknowledge that there is a problem that they cannot definitively identify and in the interest of their customers’ safety they will refund the purchase price paid. It’d be a huge financial shit sandwich with extra mayo. I think they know what is wrong with a design that is too light and on the edge of workable. When tolerances stack up it’s now a problem even if the gun is put together in the sequence they say not to do. That putting it together wrong is even possible is a trevion’s engineering failure. Like the Canadian Ross rifle iirc that could be assembled wrong and the gun can fire without locking the bolt and kill the shooter. That is an engineering failure. |
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Quoted: Glock managed to overcome their reputational damage… If you think Glock's relatively minor issues, which they responded to quickly and didn't blame anybody else for, is in any way similar to the liability SIG has incurred with the 320, then you're not paying attention. |
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Quoted: I'm not sure I buy his theory that Sig doesn't know what's going on with the 320. But Sig did release it not drop safe, so they do seem like dolts, so maybe. If Sig does know what's up and has avoided a recall to help defend products liability and avoid problems with their military contract I wonder whether Sig will eventually end up before Congress and maybe in court with criminal charges. Olin/Winchester (WC846) and Colt plus numerous military and defense department individuals didn't get taken to court over the XM16-A1 fiasco resulting in many unnecessary deaths in Vietnam. |
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Quoted: I love my 365's but I don't ever see myself buying another Sig, as Gun Jesus says they offer nothing that's really any better than other options on the market so why support a scummy company like them? agreed. Then again I am not a huge plastic gun guy. I own a 43x after 25+ years of carrying a G22 for work and a CZ P07. The P07 is pretty decent but what I really wanted at the time was a P01 or PCR with genuine alloy frames. |
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Quoted: They may not be able to discontinue it. The mil contract likely requires them to maintain a production line capable of a certain rate of production for wartime needs. They may be able to repurpose the production line for something else but maintaining 320 production capability without producing will cost them and it pretty much guarantees that they'll be losing money on any small mil orders. Quoted: Quoted: I agree with is overall take which is the 320 is so tainted at this point. Fixing it won't solve the problem. Discontinue the gun and revise the 365 to a full size service pistol. They may not be able to discontinue it. The mil contract likely requires them to maintain a production line capable of a certain rate of production for wartime needs. They may be able to repurpose the production line for something else but maintaining 320 production capability without producing will cost them and it pretty much guarantees that they'll be losing money on any small mil orders. Yup and they seem to still be in their original contract period of performance(through 2027) which was IDIQ. Sig aggressively priced the guns to undercut Glock. They seem to be selling to DoD at cost or a very low profit (a few percent). I believe their intent was to get the contract and then sell a ton to LE, the public, and other militaries so the original DoD contract was somewhat of a lost leader. Unfortunately for them, they still need to honor the low price for the military contract (and can’t jack the price up for new contracts after 2027). If they’re forced to discontinue sales to civilians, LE, etc. where they make all their money with the 320, that is going to hurt. Clearly that’s where they make their money. USMC paid $176 for an an M18 where a civilian m18 retails for $650 |
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Sig's biggest problem is Sig. Plain and simple. Instead of "it goes off unintended".....No, it doesn't, and my dad can beat up your dad It should be "it goes off unintended".....We'll gladly buy your weapon back and investigate it. And we'll investigate all the videos and incidents detailed all over the internet, too, and we'll get back to you because we're seriously concerned about this. |
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Quoted: Sig's biggest problem is Sig. Plain and simple. Instead of "it goes off unintended".....No, it doesn't, and my dad can beat up your dad It should be "it goes off unintended".....We'll gladly buy your weapon back and investigate it. And we'll investigate all the videos and incidents detailed all over the internet, too, and we'll get back to you because we're seriously concerned about this. 
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Quoted: According to one post I saw here today, that kinda looked like official SIG propaganda (I'm honestly not certain if real at this point), they (SIG) have recently reverted to calling critics and skeptics "anti-gun". Quoted: Quoted: Sig's biggest problem is Sig. Plain and simple. Instead of "it goes off unintended".....No, it doesn't, and my dad can beat up your dad It should be "it goes off unintended".....We'll gladly buy your weapon back and investigate it. And we'll investigate all the videos and incidents detailed all over the internet, too, and we'll get back to you because we're seriously concerned about this. According to one post I saw here today, that kinda looked like official SIG propaganda (I'm honestly not certain if real at this point), they (SIG) have recently reverted to calling critics and skeptics "anti-gun". No, it's real. They posted that March 7th.:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/ |
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Quoted: No, it's real. They posted that March 7th.:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/ This is why, in my opinion, SIG leadership is irredeemable. There were questions about the 320 before March 7th. They decided this would be their response. |
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Quoted: No, it's real. They posted that March 7th.:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/ IMO that's just sad. |
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Quoted: Glock managed to overcome their reputational damage… Glock's biggest issues were corroded/struck strikers that could cause bursts (very early models before plated strikers), .40's blowing up, .40's not liking lights mounted to them, and funky ejection patterns in the gen 4. The .40 grenades were probably the worst issue, and I don't think it killed anyone (or even cost any fingers). |
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Quoted: They didn’t fire him when he was literally convicted of arms dealing. It’s on them. Depending on how foreign convictions are viewed I don’t even know if he can legally own firearms. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2019-04-03/sig-sauer-ceo-avoids-jail-time-for-role-in-illegal-arms-shipment He has the magic touch for turning good, unprofitable gun companies into companies which are shitty and profitable. |
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Quoted: I wish whoever runs this place would implement a 'current thing' forum as has been suggested so many times, so we could put all these 320 threads in one place. Or perhaps instead of putting them in a separate forum, they could just allow mods to tag them as 'current thing' and we could view GD through a filter with 'current thing' toggled on or off. Covid Epstein Obama Sig 320 Seems like every few weeks/months a thing becomes all the rage, until the next thing takes over. We have a "Current Thing" forum. It's called General Discussion. |
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Quoted: Hoping they work through this debacle so they can finally start working on those MPX caliber conversion kits Yep. After the whole “customer is the alpha tester” of the MPX, MCX, 55x, etc I’m surprised anyone is surprised. Sig got me on the MPX and I swore them off until the M17 after which I swore them off again. |
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Quoted: He has the magic touch for turning good, unprofitable gun companies into companies which are shitty and profitable. Quoted: Quoted: They didn’t fire him when he was literally convicted of arms dealing. It’s on them. Depending on how foreign convictions are viewed I don’t even know if he can legally own firearms. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2019-04-03/sig-sauer-ceo-avoids-jail-time-for-role-in-illegal-arms-shipment He has the magic touch for turning good, unprofitable gun companies into companies which are shitty and profitable. It's classic MBA behavior. Burn the corporate reputation of an established industry player as fuel for a cost savings deathmarch, and then jump ship before it all crashes and explodes. Short term value gains, in exchange for the long term destruction of the company. See K-Mart, Sears, etc etc. |
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Quoted: There is no good way out of this-in the Automotive industry, they are happy to pay out tens of millions of dollars in lawsuit losses because it’s cheaper than a factory recall and eventually the cars will be old enough that they won’t be on the hook for their faulty design anymore. Sig may be using that tactic. Problem is, now that the cat is out of the bag, even if only 20% of the suits are successful against them, there will be enough of them coming that it will still be enough to bankrupt them. The automotive industry can kind of “wait it out” till all the faulty cars out there are in the scrap heap. Very few of a generic, non-collectible model of car will be in use in, say, 30 years after it’s released. The problem Sig has is that firearms can easily last generations. Even if they did a recall, there could be thousands of 320s out there that never get sent in, sit in a safe for years, then the kids inherit them and *oops*….another lawsuit. And another. Popping up now and then, possibly pretty much in perpetuity. And, if we assume there actually is a mechanical defect / tolerance stacking issue, it’s reasonable to assume it will only get worse as time goes on, and guns in the wild get more worn out from use. It could be a bit of a pickle. EDIT: although I’m curious how long you can really sue for a defective product, if you can possibly prove it’s the defect at fault, and not just normal wear / age. Perhaps someone can clarify…never really thought about it before |
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Quoted: I sold a ton of 2022s over the years and they always seemed like decent pistols. At the price point though there are like 6 other guns I would consider first and the Walther PDP and PDP Pro are probably the most underrated guns on the market right now. The P2022 was used by the French Gendarmerie and their contract required every part inspected and every supplier audited for quality. Those pistols are tanks. Nothing wrong with the Walther PDPs, but I think the Beretta APX is the most underrated striker-fired pistol ATM. |
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Quoted: I'm not sure I buy his theory that Sig doesn't know what's going on with the 320. But Sig did release it not drop safe, so they do seem like dolts, so maybe. If Sig does know what's up and has avoided a recall to help defend products liability and avoid problems with their military contract I wonder whether Sig will eventually end up before Congress and maybe in court with criminal charges. Right. Sig is full of shit. My theory is that Sig attempted to make a combat handgun with a target-grade trigger, which is the opposite of what a combat handgun should have. “Bullseye shooters” and poor shooters blaming the factory trigger in their Glocks has convinced many people that “Glock triggers suck”. ^^^^ Perhaps Sig wanted to capitalize on this? Regardless, the reality is that Sig mass-produced, marketed and sold a faulty product, then knowingly blamed those injured, and holster manufacturers. I agree that Sig Executives will be summoned to testify before Congress. After the recent death of the Airman I hope those responsible wind up in prison. |
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Quoted: The P2022 was used by the French Gendarmerie and their contract required every part inspected and every supplier audited for quality. Those pistols are tanks. Nothing wrong with the Walther PDPs, but I think the Beretta APX is the most underrated striker-fired pistol ATM. I’m normally a Beretta fan, but the ARX has some ergonomic weirdness going on that I can’t quite put a finger on. They definitely have been a bargain though. My only complaint has been a customer that had one of the threaded models that would not run unsuppressed with 115 target ammo. It did run fine after it came back from the Beretta mothership. |
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Quoted: He makes a good point. Dont you think that if the issue is known and fixable from SIG then they wouldve lost a lot more of the liability cases they've been saddled with in the last year? |
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Quoted: Yep. After the whole “customer is the alpha tester” of the MPX, MCX, 55x, etc I’m surprised anyone is surprised. Sig got me on the MPX and I swore them off until the M17 after which I swore them off again. SIG has been putting out shitpiles since like 2010. I don't know how this caught anybody off guard. |
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Quoted: They have recently taken the P320 off the M-17/18. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/IMG_2954-3595296.jpghttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/IMG_2953-3595297.jpg Interesting that that gun has the mil markings. |
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Quoted: Right. Sig is full of shit. My theory is that Sig attempted to make a combat handgun with a target-grade trigger, which is the opposite of what a combat handgun should have. “Bullseye shooters” and poor shooters blaming the factory trigger in their Glocks has convinced many people that “Glock triggers suck”. ^^^^ Perhaps Sig wanted to capitalize on this? Regardless, the reality is that Sig mass-produced, marketed and sold a faulty product, then knowingly blamed those injured, and holster manufacturers. I agree that Sig Executives will be summoned to testify before Congress. After the recent death of the Airman I hope those responsible wind up in prison. SIG designing the P320 the way they did was a direct response to the complaints of the P250. Everybody complained about the trigger, and the fact that they didn't work. SIG fixated on one of those problems. |
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Quoted: I’m normally a Beretta fan, but the ARX has some ergonomic weirdness going on that I can’t quite put a finger on. They definitely have been a bargain though. My only complaint has been a customer that had one of the threaded models that would not run unsuppressed with 115 target ammo. It did run fine after it came back from the Beretta mothership. The ARX sucks, but it works well and is accurate. They were a bargain at $800. You can pretty much always count on a Beretta to at least be reliable. They know what they're doing, and they give a shit. |
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Quoted: Because he made them rich. Quoted: Quoted: I can't believe they haven't fired FRC yet. After the QC issues with the 226/228/229 that got them booted by Government agencies, other minor issues, and now this, why is FRC still there. Deport him. Because he made them rich. Well, about the coming days and weeks....Yikes is all I can say. |
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Quoted: He makes a good point. Dont you think that if the issue is known and fixable from SIG then they wouldve lost a lot more of the liability cases they've been saddled with in the last year? Look at the claims of the plaintiffs in the cases they lost: a personal injury lawyer claiming the guns are unsafe because of a lack of a trigger safety. The guns are unsafe, but not because of a the lack of a dingus. They're unsafe because of a combination of poor design and poor quality control. We've got multiple multi-page threads, and a whole industry of guntubers trying to figure it out. There are multiple avenues of failure in the design. Trying to run a jury through the technical aspects of a manual safety, trigger dingus, safety block, lightened firing pin, sear, secondary sear, etc is not going to work. |
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Quoted: The ARX sucks, but it works well and is accurate. They were a bargain at $800. You can pretty much always count on a Beretta to at least be reliable. They know what they're doing, and they give a shit. I just looked and the APX tactical is ballpark $500 with 3 mags, optic cut slide, and a threaded barrel. The ARX is basically discontinued and most of the complaints were heavy triggers and 2-3MOA accuracy. For a polymer based general issue intermediate caliber semiautomatic rifle that’s pretty good. |
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Quoted: They have recently taken the P320 off the M-17/18. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/IMG_2954-3595296.jpghttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/518633/IMG_2953-3595297.jpg "P320" was never on the military issue guns. Top slide is commercial version. Bottom slide is military issue. |
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Quoted: I can't believe they haven't fired FRC yet. After the QC issues with the 226/228/229 that got them booted by Government agencies, other minor issues, and now this, why is FRC still there. Deport him. @Pallas |
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Quoted: I guess I missed the problems with the 226/228/229 platforms. Can you elaborate a little? I hope the newer MK25s were still good. I bought one new a couple of years ago. @Pallas SIG (USA) wasn’t qc’ing them. This was a decade (closer to two) ago. Air Marshalls would send half theirs back, FBI/ATF dropped them, I know of a few people who got new ones that were all fucked up. Even the Japanese were getting ones that were jacked up. FRC can fuck anything up. |