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Posted: 1/22/2026 12:44:57 AM EDT
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Steel If you haven't noticed, Am Rel seems to have a large flux of these bullets coming in, and are dumping them for cheap. These 50 gr bullets are terrible for precision or home defense, but are cheap. But not any cheaper than 55 gr lead ball. Why have I been grabbing them? Steel. You can shoot steel at One thing about Am Rel - when they get a large influx of something, eventually they will run out, and that will be that. I got a bunch of MK318 Mod 1's that way once; very nice. The nice thing about these MK311 bullets in particular, is they are jacketed and so more resilient to abuse, compared to non-jacketed frangible bullets. They CAN be pretty accurate, but you'll get flyers. With the common usage of FRT's now - being able to to practice such drills is fun, and it's a whole lot more fun on steel. But you can't do 15 yard CQB full-auto practice on steel out of 5.56 with ball! You can with these though. Retail this ammo is $1 a shot, when you could find it. And you'll be going through 30 round magazines in seconds. But - right now, you can reload it, especially with the cheap lead free primers for fully lead free ammo, for about 18 cents a shot. Here's what I run. Works for me - though progressive 3031 is a PITA mess, I'll say that! But it shoots good, and that's the fastest .223 powder I currently have, so that's what I'm running.  It's also fantastic to have steel close for just general fun training. I take new shooters out all the time. Usually the #1 favorite by far is the Stribog 9mm - by far. But this new shooter loved the Mk18 knock off, and running ammo on steel, at about 8 yards. It disintegrates on impact. https://rumble.com/v74oc6k-mk18.html |
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Here's some load testing to add to your thread. We've used these for over 6 years and they've work well with 1:8 barrels. I've stopped using lead projectiles altogether when doing dynamic training. Accurate enough to easily hit 8x11 plates at 125yds. I was hitting small oranges at 95yds offhand. Haven't noticed any fliers. Can you say how far out these fliers were you've experienced? The targets below were at 50yds. I use 25gr of IMR4895 normally. It's a heavily compressed load. Have some other powders loaded up to test out. Just need to get to the range again... As you say, they're great for close in drills on steel plates. No damage to the plates at all. We still cover our face/arms and wear eye pro when shooting at plates close in. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: Here's some load testing to add to your thread. We've used these for over 6 years and they've work well with 1:8 barrels. I've stopped using lead projectiles altogether when doing dynamic training. Accurate enough to easily hit 8x11 plates at 125yds. I was hitting small oranges at 95yds offhand. Haven't noticed any fliers. Can you say how far out these fliers were you've experienced? The targets below were at 50yds. I use 25gr of IMR4895 normally. It's a heavily compressed load. Have some other powders loaded up to test out. Just need to get to the range again... As you say, they're great for close in drills on steel plates. No damage to the plates at all. We still cover our face/arms and wear eye pro when shooting at plates close in. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/375214/50gr_frang_load_JPG-3699138.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/375214/50_gr_frang_IMR4895_JPG-3699139.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/375214/AA2520_50gr_frang_png-3699140.JPG Great reply. When I say "fliers" i mean i can get 4 shots in a sub MOA group at times, but that 5th will throw a 2 or so MOA on me. Still plenty servicable for the job. On a lark, if you do find some 3031 on the cheao, try it? |
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Not a bad idea for shooting steel up close. Here's another website for some info on the frangible 50gr projectiles. http://natoreloading.com/50frangible/ The more data the better. One thing I don't understand on the natoreloading website is why they are loading similar to the 77gr SMK? Is it just because the length of the 50gr projectiles? Wouldn't any 50gr reloading data be a good starting point for load development? |
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I should have a half pound of 3031 based on my xls list of inventory. What charge weight have you been using? A rule of thumb for loading this bullet is to use 77gr SMK load data as a starting point. The 50gr frangible bullet is about the same length as a 77gr SMK. Since the frang bullet is much lighter you most likely can increase the charge weight slightly from there. For example: Hodgdon shows 20-23gr charge weight for the 77gr SMK and I was able to work up to 25gr. Hodgdon has 3031 at 18.5 - 21.3gr for the 77gr SMK, so that's where I'd start and work up slightly from there. (insert 'not my fault disclosure' here  ) I have Benchmark, Norma203B and CFE223 loads ready for the range testing. |
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Quoted: Not a bad idea for shooting steel up close. Here's another website for some info on the frangible 50gr projectiles. http://natoreloading.com/50frangible/ The more data the better. One thing I don't understand on the natoreloading website is why they are loading similar to the 77gr SMK? Is it just because the length of the 50gr projectiles? Yes, that's the reason. Wouldn't any 50gr reloading data be a good starting point for load development? No |
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Quoted: I should have a half pound of 3031 based on my xls list of inventory. What charge weight have you been using? A rule of thumb for loading this bullet is to use 77gr SMK load data as a starting point. The 50gr frangible bullet is about the same length as a 77gr SMK. Since the frang bullet is much lighter you most likely can increase the charge weight slightly from there. For example: Hodgdon shows 20-23gr charge weight for the 77gr SMK and I was able to work up to 25gr. Hodgdon has 3031 at 18.5 - 21.3gr for the 77gr SMK, so that's where I'd start and work up slightly from there. (insert 'not my fault disclosure' here ) I have Benchmark, Norma203B and CFE223 loads ready for the range testing. |
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Quoted: I should have a half pound of 3031 based on my xls list of inventory. What charge weight have you been using? A rule of thumb for loading this bullet is to use 77gr SMK load data as a starting point. The 50gr frangible bullet is about the same length as a 77gr SMK. Since the frang bullet is much lighter you most likely can increase the charge weight slightly from there. For example: Hodgdon shows 20-23gr charge weight for the 77gr SMK and I was able to work up to 25gr. Hodgdon has 3031 at 18.5 - 21.3gr for the 77gr SMK, so that's where I'd start and work up slightly from there. (insert 'not my fault disclosure' here ) I have Benchmark, Norma203B and CFE223 loads ready for the range testing. 24.5 gr here |
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Ordered 3000 more. Essentially same price and usage as 55 ball for all practical purposes, short of actual lethality, but can shot steel CQB. For the bulk of my ball usage, that's perfect. I have plenty of 55 ball when i want to hit harder or go farther. I've seen it stated these can wear oit a barrel faster, bit I've never seen that substantiated and have my doubts. That and the bulk of my usage is a MK18 BBL, which i don't care - cheap, and PSA will warrenty replace even, anyway. |
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Not sure I would shoot steel at 5 yds even with frangibles. I have been cut more by copper jacket material than lead when frag comes off steel. And a lot of the frangibles still use a copper jacket. Besides, a lot of CQB training is hostage rescue focused for me, so just hitting steel isn’t cutting it, need to see that they were good hits. Anyhow- some advice- watch your twist rate for some of these frangible rounds, I got a bunch to take to a Thunder Ranch instructor class once and they turned my 1/9 Colt 6721 from a tack driver to something putting out 2 foot patterns at 50 yards! 1/7 was OK, good enough for the class, but I would probably not train with them beyond 50 yds, seems like they were still about twice the group size as basic Q3131 FMJ. |
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Quoted: Not sure I would shoot steel at 5 yds even with frangibles. I have been cut more by copper jacket material than lead when frag comes off steel. And a lot of the frangibles still use a copper jacket. Besides, a lot of CQB training is hostage rescue focused for me, so just hitting steel isn’t cutting it, need to see that they were good hits. Anyhow- some advice- watch your twist rate for some of these frangible rounds, I got a bunch to take to a Thunder Ranch instructor class once and they turned my 1/9 Colt 6721 from a tack driver to something putting out 2 foot patterns at 50 yards! 1/7 was OK, good enough for the class, but I would probably not train with them beyond 50 yds, seems like they were still about twice the group size as basic Q3131 FMJ. I think this is a great reply on all counts. When time allows, I'll do a broader accuracy testing of this load in a spectrum of barrels. In development, I used an 11.5 1/7 BBL - and these very long bullets did quite variable, depending on the load. With 4+ MOA groups in some tests, and as little as 1.2 MOA in others, but a high sensitivity to powder choice (did poor with ball 2230, loved stick 3031). It seems to really like being over a compressed 3031 load. That said - I only did 2 replicates with that powder, yet in that case, both 5-shot groups came in under 2 MOA, with one at 1.2 MOA. But again, very sparse data set, so I'll go do more extensive testig, now that I've cranked out several thousand of these (we're snowed in this week). Or that may have nothing to do with the powder and everything to do with velocity. In my tests, that performance also correlated to velocity, where the 3031 ball loads were a mild 2400-2500 fps range, and it liked the slower end of that at the 1.2 MOA. Where the higher speed AA2230 rounds were running 2500-2600 fps range, and grouped much worse. Which is probably the more likely reason. Cheap out of round bullets/non-perfect-wt-distribution bullets don't like to be spun faster than they need, and these long guys with abused compressed cores subject to cracking, are likely going to be a most extreme example of that. So spinning them fast enough to be stable on paper at 50 yards, but no faster, is likely the ideal speed. In my tests, out of an 11.5 1/7 twist BBL, that apparently is right at about 2450 fps. Now I'm curious, and I wonder what the stability factory is at that speed... |
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So - I asked AI to do it. And yes, as much as I dispise AI, if you haven't been using it, or mastering how to use it, you are very quickly going to get left behind. If curious, here is how I framed the question to ChatGPT "This one will test your abilities. Berger Bullets makes a "stability calculator" on their website, which calculates indicates a factor which will show if a bullet in flight at certain conditions is stable or will wobble. My request is to use that calculator, or those mathematics if found elsewhere to calculate the stability factor for a specific bullet, at a spectrum of muzzle velocity and barrel twist rates. In particular, the bullet is MK311 (or "Frangible brown tip"), which is a lead-free 1" long 50 gr practice bullet for training, designed to shatter on impact at close range target encounters, for training safety. Conditions for the calculation are 70 °F, 50% RH, 800' elevation. Distance to target is 100 yards (which I don't think factors in to this assessment, but just stating). Conditions 1/7 twist BBL A) 2400 FPS B) 2500 FPS C) 2600 FPS D) 2700 FPS E) 2800 FPS 1/8 twist BBL (same A-E conditions) 1/9 twist BBL (Same A-E conditions) Prepare a graphic showing those conditions and the resulting stability factor" This is what it gave me back  That's how scary-effective AI is rapidly becoming. 2 years ago this was pure fantasy. 1 year ago it'd give me a stick figure of a guy with a rifle. Today, it's doing this. Back to the assessment, for my load, in 1/7 at 2450 FPS, I have a solid SG of >2 But my 18" AUG with a 1/9 twist BBL is going to struggle. I 'll get more MV, maybe pushing 2650 FPS or so, which gets me to the marginal 1.3 SG, which ... shoulllld work OK with this load. I look forward to testing it. My 1/8 16" M4gery, should be fine with these. |
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Btw, if curious to dive deep, Grok offered to dive into the risks of going above 1.7 SG with frangibles: So I clicked that. Here's what the AI said, and I actually do buy this, and saw it even, with the higher velocity loads.: (copy/paste doesn't transfer formatting so good) Great topic to revisit — this is one of those places where the *textbook* answer (“more stability is always better”) quietly breaks down. Short version: **for frangible bullets, Sg ? ~1.7 can actually *hurt* performance**, even though the bullet is still perfectly stable in flight. Let’s unpack why. --- ## 1. “Stability” ? “Benign Behavior” **Gyroscopic stability (Sg)** only tells you one thing: > Will the bullet maintain point-forward flight? It does **not** guarantee: * low yaw * low dispersion * predictable fragmentation * uniform terminal behavior Frangibles are especially sensitive because they **lack structural damping**. --- ## 2. Material Physics: Frangibles Are “Rigid but Brittle” MK311-type bullets are: * **low density** * **powder-metal or sintered** * **very stiff** * **very brittle** Compared to jacketed lead bullets, they have: * **almost no plastic deformation** * **very low internal energy dissipation** That matters a lot when spin rate climbs. --- ## 3. Spin Rate Scales Faster Than You Think Spin rate (RPM) is: [ RPM = \frac{12 \cdot V}{\text{twist (in)}} \times 60 ] For your MK311 example: ### 1:7 @ 2800 fps * ~**288,000 RPM** ### 1:8 @ 2600 fps * ~**234,000 RPM** That extra ~50k RPM is **not free** for a brittle projectile. --- ## 4. What Goes Wrong Above ~1.7 Sg ### A) **Micro-precession amplification** At high Sg: * tiny manufacturing asymmetries * uneven sintering density * minute base defects …produce **persistent, undamped precession** rather than self-correcting yaw. Lead-core bullets *absorb* this energy. Frangibles *store* it. Result: * larger shot-to-shot dispersion * “random flyers” at 100 yd+ --- ### B) **Loss of aerodynamic damping** Paradoxically: * moderate Sg ? good yaw damping * excessive Sg ? **reduced coning decay** The bullet resists aligning to airflow changes, so: * yaw takes longer to decay * crosswind sensitivity increases * dynamic imbalance matters more This effect is mild for copper or lead bullets — **pronounced for frangibles**. --- ### C) **Centrifugal stress approaches material limits** This is the *big* one for frangibles. Centrifugal stress scales with: [ \sigma \propto \rho r^2 \omega^2 ] At very high RPM: * internal tensile stresses increase rapidly * microscopic cracks propagate * bond interfaces weaken This doesn’t usually cause **mid-air disintegration**, but it **primes the bullet**. --- ## 5. Terminal Effect Weirdness When a high-Sg frangible hits: * rotational energy dominates * fragmentation can be **too rapid** * particles shear radially instead of forward Observed effects: * shallower penetration than intended * wider but less predictable fragment spray * inconsistent steel-target signature This is why many frangible designs are **optimized for 1:8 or slower**, not 1:7. --- ## 6. Why Military Still Uses 1:7 Anyway Simple: * worst-case cold air * tracer compatibility * suppressor stability margin * guaranteed no keyholing They accept: * slightly worse dispersion * slightly less controlled fragmentation Because **reliability beats elegance**. --- ## 7. Rule of Thumb (Frangibles Only) | Sg Range | Behavior | | ----------- | ------------------------------------- | | **1.3–1.5** | Marginal, yaw risk | | **1.5–1.7** | **Optimal** | | **1.7–2.0** | Stable but increasing oddities | | **>2.0** | Dispersion + terminal inconsistencies | Your **1:8 barrel numbers (˜1.6–1.7)** are right in the goldilocks zone. --- ## 8. Bottom Line Frangibles behave “weird” past ~1.7 Sg because: * they can’t damp spin-induced energy * they amplify tiny imperfections * centrifugal stress alters fracture behavior * excessive gyroscopic stiffness reduces aerodynamic self-correction They don’t tumble — they just stop behaving *nicely*. If you want, next we can: * quantify **RPM-induced stress vs sintered tensile strength** * compare **MK311 vs copper solid frangibles** * or look at **dynamic stability (Sg ? Sd)** beyond 100 yd This is deep-end stuff — happy to stay here. |
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Quoted: Btw, if curious to dive deep, Grok offered to dive into the risks of going above 1.7 SG with frangibles: So I clicked that. Here's what the AI said, and I actually do buy this, and saw it even, with the higher velocity loads.: (copy/paste doesn't transfer formatting so good) So basically, the hard frangible center of this bullet, vs lead, causes nuances if you overstabilize. and naunnces if you understabilize. So recommended sweet spot for this bullet is: 1/7: ~2400 FPS out of a 1/7 - slower would be better, but I doubt you'll cycle. I run closer to 2450 fps out of my 1/7, and am happy. when I go over 2500 FPS, groups open up biggly, just like AI hints at. To get the right pressure cycle to run well at that kind of speed, this is going to do best in the shorter BBL's, like 10.3-12" BBLs. Which is exactly what I bought these bullets for and use them for. https://rumble.com/v6r5v8o-say-can-i-try-your-binary.html 1/8: <2700 fps out of a 1/8. Go as slow as you can and still cycle. I haven't tested my 16", but estimate I'll be clocking about 2600 FPS or so with my load, which should be about perfect for this bullet 1/9: and as fast as you can in a 1/9. At least 2700 FPS, but that's still spotty. It's all going to be spotty, but less so the faster you go. Go Go AI. modern quote: "You won't be replaced by AI. But you will be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI" |
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Last year I picked up some of these, and loaded up a few. American reloading had some inexpensive pull down powder that made loading these especially economical. I pretty well pulled together the odd brass that I'd sized over the years that I wasn't going to use for anything else. So far I put a few of them on paper at 100 yds and once at an indoor range. They shot as well as anyone reasonable might expect 5 cent bullets to shoot. By that I mean, they function fine, and group between 4 and 5 inches at 100 yds. The unexpected gem from American Reloading last year was a batch of 125 gr .308 HP projectiles pulls that ran just over 11 center per pill. They are shooting pretty well in 308 Win. Mixed headstamp brass on its fourth firing and pull down powder is giving me 1.25" groups at 100 yds, quite a bit better than such a mix of economical components should. It's a good time for reloaders right now. American Reloading has been taking pretty good care of us. They had 55 gr .224 Gold Dot pulls at 6 cents each and 62 Gr .224 Fusion pulls at 8 cents each last year. They had pull down powder that came out to under $20/lb shipped not long ago. Just yesterday I saw 77 Gr .224 Tipped SMK pulls at 11 cents each. If you haven't seen some of the SMK bullet deals at Raven Rock, you should check it out. These aren't distressed, but new bullets in Sierra packaging. Also, AR15Discounters has been running some crazy deals on LR primers, with prices down to pre-pandemic levels (assuming you can spring for 5k of them). |
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OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ |
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Quoted: Last year I picked up some of these, and loaded up a few. American reloading had some inexpensive pull down powder that made loading these especially economical. I pretty well pulled together the odd brass that I'd sized over the years that I wasn't going to use for anything else. So far I put a few of them on paper at 100 yds and once at an indoor range. They shot as well as anyone reasonable might expect 5 cent bullets to shoot. By that I mean, they function fine, and group between 4 and 5 inches at 100 yds. The unexpected gem from American Reloading last year was a batch of 125 gr .308 HP projectiles pulls that ran just over 11 center per pill. They are shooting pretty well in 308 Win. Mixed headstamp brass on its fourth firing and pull down powder is giving me 1.25" groups at 100 yds, quite a bit better than such a mix of economical components should. It's a good time for reloaders right now. American Reloading has been taking pretty good care of us. They had 55 gr .224 Gold Dot pulls at 6 cents each and 62 Gr .224 Fusion pulls at 8 cents each last year. They had pull down powder that came out to under $20/lb shipped not long ago. Just yesterday I saw 77 Gr .224 Tipped SMK pulls at 11 cents each. If you haven't seen some of the SMK bullet deals at Raven Rock, you should check it out. These aren't distressed, but new bullets in Sierra packaging. Also, AR15Discounters has been running some crazy deals on LR primers, with prices down to pre-pandemic levels (assuming you can spring for 5k of them). |
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Quoted: OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. |
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Quoted: With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. Quoted: Quoted: OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. To follow-up, if you are testing these loads in your 20" 1/9 BBL, where the top end was pushing 3000 FPS, your performance is exactly what AI is predicting in the green line. Where the stability at the top end is getting better. Note AI is saying being between the blue dotted line (1.5) and below 2.0 is ideal with these bullets, and if you can't - the closest you can get to that window, the better your results will be.  Attached File (unstated, but assumed from other commentary in thread this is the 1/9 20" BBL and the top end was around 3000 fps - per posters links - but confidence in this assumption is not certain)) AI prediction is also in line with Blowouts post, of two different powders, where the only results were at the top end. And of those two, the one with the higher top end MV, which had an SG closest to getting to 1.5, also had the tighter group, of the two tighter groups. Also consistent with AI's suggestions that the faster speed in a 1/9, will give the better results. But again, bewarned - AI is also saying that the SLOWER the speed in the 1/7, the better the results will be. And my own (limited) tests, agree with that. As to posting on this before - I have new analysis, and would have just added to the original thread, but it's already been archived (our archive timer is a bit quick) |
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Quoted: Not sure I would shoot steel at 5 yds even with frangibles. Especially so, if the steel has any pock marks (dimples) on it at all. When I shoot up close, I take cardboard IPSC silhouettes with me to the range. The steel stays down range quite a bit more and I make sure it is tilted down and away from me. |
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Quoted: Solid post, Raven Rock is almost as good as AM as far as price and easy to hit the $75 free shipping, no tax. Thanks. Rocky Mountain Reloading deserves a mention, too, of course. They haven't had as many screaming deals as of late, but still a solid vendor. |
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Quoted: With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. Quoted: Quoted: OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. "...... 16" 1/7" Colt 6940 ............. Ave 2763fps ES 145.2 SD 48.12 20" 1/8" CLE SR Upper(so match barrel).............. Ave 3007 ES 144.1 SD 50.26......" |
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Quoted: "...... 16" 1/7" Colt 6940 ............. Ave 2763fps ES 145.2 SD 48.12 20" 1/8" CLE SR Upper(so match barrel).............. Ave 3007 ES 144.1 SD 50.26......" Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. "...... 16" 1/7" Colt 6940 ............. Ave 2763fps ES 145.2 SD 48.12 20" 1/8" CLE SR Upper(so match barrel).............. Ave 3007 ES 144.1 SD 50.26......" Right, so which one in that cardboard target image? |
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Quoted: Right, so which one in that cardboard target image? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP: You've posted this before, not criticizing just pointing out. Here's a thread, where I post some velocity/accuracy testing of it in #5. Just an FYI. https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/50-Gr-Frangibles/42-559824/ And heres a direct post: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Some-mk311-Data/42-549817/ With apologies, I'm unable to discern what velocities and what barrel twist was giving those results. "...... 16" 1/7" Colt 6940 ............. Ave 2763fps ES 145.2 SD 48.12 20" 1/8" CLE SR Upper(so match barrel).............. Ave 3007 ES 144.1 SD 50.26......" Right, so which one in that cardboard target image? IDK, if you mean #11. I did not post any targets. Is it yours? Sorry for the confusion. |
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Quoted: Thanks. Rocky Mountain Reloading deserves a mention, too, of course. They haven't had as many screaming deals as of late, but still a solid vendor. |
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Quoted: Thanks. Rocky Mountain Reloading deserves a mention, too, of course. They haven't had as many screaming deals as of late, but still a solid vendor. 
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Quoted: I've been searching for info on shooting frangible bullets and barrel wear but found nothing definitive. Not sure if I want to run these things through my DD barrels. Beater CQB barrel. 70 dollah https://ar15discounts.com/products/ballistic-advantage-12-5-5-56-nato-government-profile-carbine-length-modern-series-barrel/ or 10.5" if want a real MK18 build - also $70. Throw one on a beater upper, and off ya go. https://www.classicfirearms.com/arbarrel10-5m4parkerizedcontourcarbinear1in7twist/ |
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Quoted: Beater CQB barrel. 70 dollah https://ar15discounts.com/products/ballistic-advantage-12-5-5-56-nato-government-profile-carbine-length-modern-series-barrel/ or 10.5" if want a real MK18 build - also $70. Throw one on a beater upper, and off ya go. https://www.classicfirearms.com/arbarrel10-5m4parkerizedcontourcarbinear1in7twist/ Yeah, that's probably the best answer. I've got a 10.5" Radical Arms barrel in the parts drawer. This will be a good use for it. |
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Quoted: Yeah, that's probably the best answer. I've got a 10.5" Radical Arms barrel in the parts drawer. This will be a good use for it. Quoted: Quoted: Beater CQB barrel. 70 dollah https://ar15discounts.com/products/ballistic-advantage-12-5-5-56-nato-government-profile-carbine-length-modern-series-barrel/ or 10.5" if want a real MK18 build - also $70. Throw one on a beater upper, and off ya go. https://www.classicfirearms.com/arbarrel10-5m4parkerizedcontourcarbinear1in7twist/ Yeah, that's probably the best answer. I've got a 10.5" Radical Arms barrel in the parts drawer. This will be a good use for it. Perfect. As to wear - it's hard to say. There are two types of frangible; jacketed, and unjacketed. I have a hunch wear patterns will differ between the two. Actually. . let's ask AI... ..... Interesting answer. MK311 will have same wear rate as M193. BUT the monolithic ones will have a notably higher wear rate. Is what it says. I... mostly agree. I think it's filling in some blanks here, but doing so in a way I would too. So there you go, these brown-tips, shouldn't erode you any faster than FMJ - according to AI. .... who's never wrong (ha!) though as noted, I think it's probably right. To expand, the erosion has more to do with interface behavior than core, so even though core is "harder" than lead, it's not that much of a big deal inside the jacket; whereas the frangible will have notably more erosion components abrading the barrel. Which I suspected (But didn't say), and that's what AI said is the case. |
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What you say makes sense. I was able to find a couple of articles about frangible ammo and barrel wear. The consensus being that cleaning the barrel after shooting should prolong barrel life. I thank you for your original post. It's giving me another reloading project that promises to be fun. I'll be interested to see what sort of damage it does to the 3/8" steel plates I have. They are normally relegated to pistol ammo only. I ordered 2,000 of the frangibles from AR. I've got N133 that's been sitting on the shelf for almost 20 years, plus H4895, AA2520 and Shooters World Match Rifle to experiment with. N133 is the faster of the group. Will try that first to see if I can hit the magic 2,400 fps mark in a short barrel. Think I'll try using the Servicos Aventuras pistol primers. I use them for light loads with 55 FMJs. Stay warm. |
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Quoted: What you say makes sense. I was able to find a couple of articles about frangible ammo and barrel wear. The consensus being that cleaning the barrel after shooting should prolong barrel life. I thank you for your original post. It's giving me another reloading project that promises to be fun. I'll be interested to see what sort of damage it does to the 3/8" steel plates I have. They are normally relegated to pistol ammo only. I ordered 2,000 of the frangibles from AR. I've got N133 that's been sitting on the shelf for almost 20 years, plus H4895, AA2520 and Shooters World Match Rifle to experiment with. N133 is the faster of the group. Will try that first to see if I can hit the magic 2,400 fps mark in a short barrel. Think I'll try using the Servicos Aventuras pistol primers. I use them for light loads with 55 FMJs. Stay warm. Good stuff. Each of the 1000 count bullet boxes holds right at 150 rounds of loose pack completed ammo. Which is 5 mags. If running 1/7, I suggest the slowest load that will still run your gun. FWIW, I crimp at cannular using a Lee FCD. I'm running the RUAG lead-free primers they were dumping for cheap a few months ago, and had bought many thousands. Don't know much about the SA primers, but sounds like a good idea since those are less than 100% for everyone in every pistol usage, but will run reliably in an AR. Donno about piercing, but as you note, running a mild load sounds like the way to go. I'd try it that way, as these are the right rounds for dregs, offspec, and cheapO component disposal! Your N133 selection sounds good - same burn rate as 3031 that I'm happy with. Weather and schedule is iffy; but if I have a chance this weekend to do some more accuracy testing with my spec load out of my 1/7 again, and repeat out of my 1/8 M4 and results are good - I may go buy a few thousand more yet. According to AI, my 1/8 with a mild load of these (which my spec is), should be absolutely the ideal combo. So we'll see, if I can reliably get sub 2 MOA at 100 yards, I will stockpile the bejusus out of these. ... if they still have any left after this weekend that is! I will also do renewed steel testing at 10 yards. In the video with the female shooter, she was shooting 42 gr frangible non-jacketed, so no splash at all with those (one appeal). Those bullets also break and aren't reliable - so I don't get them anymore. (she may or may-not have been in binary mode at the start!) I've CQB impact tested at 15 yards with browntips (no damage) and don't recall splash effects, but I'll test again (with eyepro!) at 10 years more focused to see; and may even place some "impact boxes" between me at the steel, just to see... Here's hoping Sunday looks nice as is free. (Saturday is iffy, my dating life is getting a bit chaotic!) |
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Dont shoot rifles at steel at 5 yards....no matter what bullet is used. Seriously, that is lethally bad. Frankly, rifles on steel is problematic at 25. You can mitigate it by sloping the targets toward the dirt and not having target stands that can splash...but it still gets dangerous if the target face is dented. I've seen it and had to take shooters to the ER. Rifle velocity + steel ends with penetrating gunshot wounds to the shooter unless you are very very careful and have 40+ yards of air space between you and the target. Even then...frangible. |
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Quoted: Dont shoot rifles at steel at 5 yards....no matter what bullet is used. Seriously, that is lethally bad. Frankly, rifles on steel is problematic at 25. You can mitigate it by sloping the targets toward the dirt and not having target stands that can splash...but it still gets dangerous if the target face is dented. I've seen it and had to take shooters to the ER. Rifle velocity + steel ends with penetrating gunshot wounds to the shooter unless you are very very careful and have 40+ yards of air space between you and the target. Even then...frangible. FWIW, according to DOD Spec, 7 yards is the spec minimum distance with these. And I'm running mine a lot slower than DOD spec. https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/05/f1/June_2012_Bullet_Trap_and_Steel_Target.pdf (see Sect. B6) But sure, I'm shooting closer to 10+ yards. 5 is pretty close; I'll update OP. And while I generally agree that 5 yards is pushing it; you've had that experience with frangible on safe-flat steel mounted correctly mounted, with shooters wearing eye-pro and covered arms and legs? Doubt. I fully agree with conventional bullets, or with damaged targets. These bullets shatter on impact. Mk311's do have jackets, so likely there will be more spall from those vs monolithic. Of note though, I'm running mild loads in an 11" BBL, so I'm impacting at 2400 FPS. Not 3000. |
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Quoted: Dont shoot rifles at steel at 5 yards....no matter what bullet is used. Seriously, that is lethally bad. Frankly, rifles on steel is problematic at 25. You can mitigate it by sloping the targets toward the dirt and not having target stands that can splash...but it still gets dangerous if the target face is dented. I've seen it and had to take shooters to the ER. Rifle velocity + steel ends with penetrating gunshot wounds to the shooter unless you are very very careful and have 40+ yards of air space between you and the target. Even then...frangible. Our steel targets are dangled with string/wire and hang at around a 30 degree angle and that deflects rounds directly below the target into the dirt. Every so often a wire gets shot and the target drops to the ground but that's an easy fix. Upright support is with a 2x4 and a hanger bracket. Targets wag when hit so there's some visual feedback along with the ring. |
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They are great. Catching a ricochet is something I worry little about when I'm shooting but a lot when my kids are shooting. Combined with "green" primers it gives me a little piece of mind with regard to lead exposure for them as well. I've got two 50cal ammo cans full and will be adding more when they are on sale. 25gr of WC844 or H335 or Tac and go to town. |
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I loaded up some this afternoon and took them to the range to see what load works. Just 50 yards and I used TAC. I loaded some up the other day and grabbed my only 1-9 twist gun. The groups were huge, like multiple multiple inches huge. Attached File |
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Quoted: I loaded up some this afternoon and took them to the range to see what load works. Just 50 yards and I used TAC. I loaded some up the other day and grabbed my only 1-9 twist gun. The groups were huge, like multiple multiple inches huge. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/47660/266_jpg-3723449.JPG Yep 1/9 is understabilized I also suspect (as a theory) that a portion of the cores are cracked from the pulling and such. and are the fliers. With a correct twist barrel (1/8 ideally) i see tight 4 shot group and a flier. I suspect not coincidentally but even with that, plenty good for my service... https://rumble.com/v76l2de-mk18-run-at-the-range.html |
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Here's how well these bullets can perform at the right speed in the right barrel. 20" National Match 1/8 twist. A high round count barrel about to be pulled and retired. Fired 5 shots at 200 yards from the prone position. Load details: Am. Rel. pulled 50 gr MK311 "brown tip" bullets at about 5 cents a bullet. No hand-select, just 5 rounds pulled out of a pile. Brass is 1 fired LC, all annealed. Am. Rel. surplus 3 cent RUAG Lead Free primers, for a 100% lead free load. Using Am. Rel. pulled powder of MP395 (IMR 3031). Loaded on a Dillon 550 progressive reloading press (i.e. bulk powder drop). Brass Mandrel'd to diameter in station 1, And crimped with a Lee FCD in station 4. Fired in the prone position from a sling after a Service Rifle practice. Here's the target fired at 200 yards. Group size is 1.4 MOA for 5 shots, at a MV of 3064.1 +- 25.3 FPS. I consider this remarkably good performance for this bullet and these components - and only the best M193 55 gr FMJ loads can beat that. If that were a competition target at 200 yards in sitting position, that would be five 10's. And that's not even being centered. I bought many thousands of these bullets. If I see them again for 5 cents, I may buy 5000 more. (Note, target is 200 yards) 
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