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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Carmel is Shipping (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 8/12/2023 11:21:07 AM EDT
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Carmel thread was archived. IWI Carmel shipping according to IWI Facebook post. Will get one at end of month. Guns.com has them but it’s at MSRP. This is a gonna be a 1500-1600 gun all day at other places in my opinion. |
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Quoted: Someone wake me up when they release the original version (or at least with the original handguard and lower) AND short barrels. Quoted: Quoted: Honestly. I forgot about it already. Someone wake me up when they release the original version (or at least with the original handguard and lower) AND short barrels. Sounds like you are asking to take a dirt nap  |
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Quoted: Aimsurplus had them for $1657 for about 15 minutes. LOL, I was in the middle of checking out when the last one went before I could finish. Dropped by my LGS this morning and they had just gotten three in a few minutes before, so I picked up one. With the transfer fee, plus shipping, probably would have been about the same price as AIM Surplus. Since AIM and most other places also collect sales tax, that savings is gone. |
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The fact that they are listing a brand new gun at under the $1799 MSRP suggests that they believe there isn’t going to be a high demand that people will pay over MSRP to be first adopters. Hard to tell the reason why. Economy? High priced gun there isn’t a lot of interest in? Ugly? Combination of factors? |
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Quoted: Yeah, but not everybody cares about the differences. For a new IWI platform to drop and only move a handful of units on GB, is crazy. Agreed. Although, if it were as originally designed, I'd have bought one. And only because I'm quoting you; based on some of the pics you've posted, I want to hang out with you!... And Solo_ too... And CaptShiess also... And... |
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Quoted: The fact that they are listing a brand new gun at under the $1799 MSRP suggests that they believe there isn’t going to be a high demand that people will pay over MSRP to be first adopters. Hard to tell the reason why. Economy? High priced gun there isn’t a lot of interest in? Ugly? Combination of factors? The biggest problem with the Carmel is weight, full stop. 8lbs is a lot, especially when most of the competition is running like a pound lighter (HK556 being the notable exception). Even the Arad is like 6.5lbs, and that's IWI's own piston AR. It is really unclear why they couldn't hit the low-ish 7lb weight mark utilizing a polymer body like the SCAR-16 (7lb 4oz) or ARX-160 (6lbs, 12oz). Even the mil-spec 11.5" version of the gun was only supposedly like 7lb 4oz, so where did all the extra weight come from? There's a lot to like about it otherwise, especially if it turns out to be a better suppressor host than the ACE. I will probably pick one up eventually. |
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Quoted: The biggest problem with the Carmel is weight, full stop. 8lbs is a lot, especially when most of the competition is running like a pound lighter (HK556 being the notable exception). Even the Arad is like 6.5lbs, and that's IWI's own piston AR. It is really unclear why they couldn't hit the low-ish 7lb weight mark utilizing a polymer body like the SCAR-16 (7lb 4oz) or ARX-160 (6lbs, 12oz). Even the mil-spec 11.5" version of the gun was only supposedly like 7lb 4oz, so where did all the extra weight come from? There's a lot to like about it otherwise, especially if it turns out to be a better suppressor host than the ACE. I will probably pick one up eventually. |
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Quoted: The biggest problem with the Carmel is weight, full stop. 8lbs is a lot, especially when most of the competition is running like a pound lighter (HK556 being the notable exception). Even the Arad is like 6.5lbs, and that's IWI's own piston AR. It is really unclear why they couldn't hit the low-ish 7lb weight mark utilizing a polymer body like the SCAR-16 (7lb 4oz) or ARX-160 (6lbs, 12oz). Even the mil-spec 11.5" version of the gun was only supposedly like 7lb 4oz, so where did all the extra weight come from? There's a lot to like about it otherwise, especially if it turns out to be a better suppressor host than the ACE. I will probably pick one up eventually. Maybe, although I’m not sure how big a deal that is for people who don’t obsess about specs. A lot of people will get interested in a gun based on looks and features and not worry that much about the weight. If they handle one in person, many will be more concerned about things like balance more than absolute weight, unless it’s noticeably very light or very heavy. I did a disassembly on mine and looked at the gas plug, and there is a noticeable difference in hole sizes between the regular and suppressed settings. It looks like the suppressed setting cuts off a lot of gas. Also, it’s got a thin barrel like the Tavor, so you’ll probably need a shoulder adapter for swapping to a suppressor mount. The factory muzzle device is attached using a jam nut, which isn’t the best choice for making sure that a suppressor mount is aligned properly. With that thin barrel, I’m not expecting a tack driver. I’m hoping that Manticore makes a polymer handguard for it that looks more like the military one. |
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Quoted: Maybe, although I’m not sure how big a deal that is for people who don’t obsess about specs. A lot of people will get interested in a gun based on looks and features and not worry that much about the weight. If they handle one in person, many will be more concerned about things like balance more than absolute weight, unless it’s noticeably very light or very heavy. I did a disassembly on mine and looked at the gas plug, and there is a noticeable difference in hole sizes between the regular and suppressed settings. It looks like the suppressed setting cuts off a lot of gas. Also, it’s got a thin barrel like the Tavor, so you’ll probably need a shoulder adapter for swapping to a suppressor mount. The factory muzzle device is attached using a jam nut, which isn’t the best choice for making sure that a suppressor mount is aligned properly. With that thin barrel, I’m not expecting a tack driver. I’m hoping that Manticore makes a polymer handguard for it that looks more like the military one. i was curious about whether or not it had a setting for suppressed.... I am hoping mine arrives before the weekend so I can zero it and shoot it at a match. |
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Quoted: Maybe, although I’m not sure how big a deal that is for people who don’t obsess about specs. A lot of people will get interested in a gun based on looks and features and not worry that much about the weight. If they handle one in person, many will be more concerned about things like balance more than absolute weight, unless it’s noticeably very light or very heavy. Weight is the first thing I notice about a rifle. Balance is real, don't get me wrong, but it's hard to cover up 8lbs of weight. Still, what you're saying about a light profile barrel and a suppressor setting is encouraging. I wonder if we'll ever see a pistol version for form 1 shenanigans, maybe with the original military handguard. |
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I’d be surprised if the military hard guard would even fit. My impression is that how the handguard attaches to the receiver is different between the US and Israeli versions. The first photo in this article shows what’s under rail covers on the Israeli version. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/is-the-carmel-israels-most-awesome-new-rifle-591786 The US version has a screw hole in the receiver in front of the charging handle slot to attaching the US handguard. That’s not on the Israeli version that I can see. |
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Quoted: Handled one at the store and the handguard is as uncomfortable as it looks. It’s like they didn’t even try. I dislike it and the grip as much as I imagined.  |
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Quoted: Handled one at the store and the handguard is as uncomfortable as it looks. It’s like they didn’t even try. I dislike it and the grip as much as I imagined. Just so you aware, the polymer Carmel forend is even wider than the aluminum m-lok one, with roughly the same edge chamfer. Sven Manticore Arms |
The weight is really kind of nuts for what it is (a 16" carbine that's heavier than a 20" AR15A4  ).I remember being really excited for what the Magpul Masada was supposed to be, but when it finally came out all bastardized after Bushmaster got their hands on it, I seem to remember it weighing something ridiculous similar to what this Americanized Carmel is now. Though at least the Bushmaster ACR actually felt good in your hands... Just way too front heavy along with other issues. I still probably wouldn't say no to the Carmel if someone gave me one (same as the CZ Bren 2), but I can't say I'd buy one. |
The reason the military handguard is so wide is because it has pic rails at 3, 6, and 9, with slide off cover panels, similar to the X95. If you look at pictures with the rail covers off, the base “box” that the pic rails are attached to is pretty much the same width as the US rail. If you sliced off the pic rails, you’d pretty much be left with the same profile as the same slim box as you get on the US rail. Since IWI US decided to go with M-Lok, you don’t need the added width of the rails and their covers. The bulged area at the front of the receiver is just to smooth the transition to the extra width of the rails and covers, again something not needed with the slim US handguard. Photo from article linked a few posts above Based on the physical differences, I don’t think there is much chance that IWI is going to ever make a new semi receiver that looks like the military one and will work with the military handguard. Maybe they will come out with a grip that looks like the original grip, but they probably aren’t going to make a new lower either. Interestingly, the drawings of the gun in the manual show the grip having an IWI logo, and looking more like the military grip, so maybe there is hope on them releasing that. On one side, if they had released the pic rails with covers, some people would be complaining about them using old school pic rails instead of M-Lok. If they had used the original lower, people would complain that they didn’t like the grip, and can’t change it because it molded as part of the lower. If they had used the original receiver with the sling loops for HK style slings, people would complain they wanted QD sling mounts. On the other side, this could turn out like the first SiG 556 versions, which a lot of people didn’t like because they wanted a 551 clone. We’ll have to see how it plays out. |
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Quoted: Someone wake me up when they release the original version (or at least with the original handguard and lower) AND short barrels. Whew, having flash backs here to the X95 release. Do you guys really want a 3-4ish MOA firearm? Or do you want something thats accurate? Because talking to IWI at NRAAM they told me the rifle was around 3-4 MOA or Military accurate, with the original setup, which wouldn't have done well in the US market where everything is compared to the AR for accuracy. |
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Quoted: Whew, having flash backs here to the X95 release. Do you guys really want a 3-4ish MOA firearm? Or do you want something thats accurate? Because talking to IWI at NRAAM they told me the rifle was around 3-4 MOA or Military accurate, with the original setup, which wouldn't have done well in the US market where everything is compared to the AR for accuracy. They (one of the people at IWI testing the Carmel) told me that the original was around 2 moa but it has a 1 moa poi shift when the bbl was removed but they said the main reason the QD bbl was dropped was because the US market doesn’t need it like the other gas’s settings. Also the OG polymer HG was also free floated and much lighter. They also said not everyone agreed with the “direction” they chose but Jeremy Gresham over ruled everyone and decided this was how it was going to be. He wanted some bullshit about lasers and top rail space for optics. This is the same guy who fubar’d the ACE. |
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Came in here expecting caramel to be shipped. Or maybe a code word for something. Left disappointed. However, I have followed very little of this. What makes it different from the SCAR, BREN M2, etc? It looks very similar? ETA: I expect to see this in video games and futuristic movies soon. My son's are going to ask me very shortly about it and I will have very little idea. |
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Quoted:They also said not everyone agreed with the “direction” they chose but Jeremy Gresham over ruled everyone and decided this was how it was going to be. He wanted some bullshit about lasers and top rail space for optics. This is the same guy who fubar’d the ACE. If you're reading this, Jeremy Gresham, your designs suck. You sandbagged the ACE with the Gen2, now you made the Carmel look somehow uglier than it already was. Please for the love of God stay the hell away from a Civilian Negev or ARAD if they ever bring those to market. Not everything needs to be a damn AR. |
| Got to look at one this morning, my 1st impressions is the hand guard feels like a brick and it’s heavy. I already expected this. It would have been amazingly balanced without all that extra weight up front. The trigger felt good, the charging handle felt much like an x95. The grip feels out of place and doesn’t match the lower, the stock feels good but didn’t want to latch closed until slammed . You can tell the barrel isn’t made by IWI. It’s almost and ink black color. Couldn’t really see the chrome lining. Holding one makes me that much more pissed off at IWI US for fubaring what would have been an amazing rifle. |
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Quoted: Got to look at one this morning, my 1st impressions is the hand guard feels like a brick and it’s heavy. I already expected this. It would have been amazingly balanced without all that extra weight up front. The trigger felt good, the charging handle felt much like an x95. The grip feels out of place and doesn’t match the lower, the stock feels good but didn’t want to latch closed until slammed . You can tell the barrel isn’t made by IWI. It’s almost and ink black color. Couldn’t really see the chrome lining. Holding one makes me that much more pissed off at IWI US for fubaring what would have been an amazing rifle. Is the action smooth on it? Actions are super smooth on the ACE and the Tavor 7, but kind of gritty on the X95 and SAR. |
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Quoted: They (one of the people at IWI testing the Carmel) told me that the original was around 2 moa but it has a 1 moa poi shift when the bbl was removed but they said the main reason the QD bbl was dropped was because the US market doesn’t need it like the other gas’s settings. Also the OG polymer HG was also free floated and much lighter. They also said not everyone agreed with the “direction” they chose but Jeremy Gresham over ruled everyone and decided this was how it was going to be. He wanted some bullshit about lasers and top rail space for optics. This is the same guy who fubar’d the ACE. QD barrels are badass would have made the rifle interesting. IWI had an opportunity to offer something unique & different, as opposed to playing it safe & going with a market subdivision strategy & churning out a variation on the AR scheme. 8.5# is AK territory. I have 3x ARXs & extra barrels, SBR & std length. It's 6.8# unloaded. Only thing preventing me from buying more is Beretta flaked out & dropped support for it, which is disappointing. People bitch about it's looks & no MLok, but it actually looks much better in person, & the MLok format was finalized too late, a few years after the ARX design was already finalized. The rails themselves are where I'd want them, so not a big deal to me. |
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Quoted: Is the action smooth on it? Actions are super smooth on the ACE and the Tavor 7, but kind of gritty on the X95 and SAR. Quoted: Is the action smooth on it? Actions are super smooth on the ACE and the Tavor 7, but kind of gritty on the X95 and SAR. It’s definitely not ace smooth but maybe a little smoother than an X95 Quoted: QD barrels are badass would have made the rifle interesting. IWI had an opportunity to offer something unique & different, as opposed to playing it safe & going with a market subdivision strategy & churning out a variation on the AR scheme. 8.5# is AK territory. I have 3x ARXs & extra barrels, SBR & std length. It's 6.8# unloaded. Only thing preventing me from buying more is Beretta flaked out & dropped support for it, which is disappointing. People bitch about it's looks & no MLok, but it actually looks much better in person, & the MLok format was finalized too late, a few years after the ARX design was already finalized. The rails themselves are where I'd want them, so not a big deal to me. |
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Quoted: QD barrels are badass would have made the rifle interesting. IWI had an opportunity to offer something unique & different, as opposed to playing it safe & going with a market subdivision strategy & churning out a variation on the AR scheme. 8.5# is AK territory. I have 3x ARXs & extra barrels, SBR & std length. It's 6.8# unloaded. Only thing preventing me from buying more is Beretta flaked out & dropped support for it, which is disappointing. People bitch about it's looks & no MLok, but it actually looks much better in person, & the MLok format was finalized too late, a few years after the ARX design was already finalized. The rails themselves are where I'd want them, so not a big deal to me. Quoted: Quoted: They (one of the people at IWI testing the Carmel) told me that the original was around 2 moa but it has a 1 moa poi shift when the bbl was removed but they said the main reason the QD bbl was dropped was because the US market doesn’t need it like the other gas’s settings. Also the OG polymer HG was also free floated and much lighter. They also said not everyone agreed with the “direction” they chose but Jeremy Gresham over ruled everyone and decided this was how it was going to be. He wanted some bullshit about lasers and top rail space for optics. This is the same guy who fubar’d the ACE. QD barrels are badass would have made the rifle interesting. IWI had an opportunity to offer something unique & different, as opposed to playing it safe & going with a market subdivision strategy & churning out a variation on the AR scheme. 8.5# is AK territory. I have 3x ARXs & extra barrels, SBR & std length. It's 6.8# unloaded. Only thing preventing me from buying more is Beretta flaked out & dropped support for it, which is disappointing. People bitch about it's looks & no MLok, but it actually looks much better in person, & the MLok format was finalized too late, a few years after the ARX design was already finalized. The rails themselves are where I'd want them, so not a big deal to me. Highlighted parts needed to be highlighted because it's true. I'm not sure what it is about pictures or even video, but they don't do the ARX justice... Same can be said about pictures of sunsets. |
| I told IWI there are many of reasons why “civilians” would want a QD bbl, I told them I personally use them for easy cleaning , switching bbl lengths but they were adamant civilians don’t need that feature like hot bbl swaps or the other missing gas settings. They also didn’t do it to improve accuracy, they said they noticed a slight improvement after they removed the QD mechanism. They admitted the 2x4 was noticeably heavier but it was worth it for more optics space and lasers. I told them the vast majority will only be run a RDS or LPVO , maybe a light and would rather have it be a 1lbs lighter than an inch or two of rail space but they were also adamant people need room for NVD & thermal clip ons , IR, etc. I asked about the people that just wanted the gun it is military configuration and they said the changes they made are better because it appeals to more people but maybe the aftermarket will come out with a new hand guard that looks closer to the OG. |
| I'll eventually pick one of these up. But I'll wait until the initial flurry passes. Hopefully there is a blem sale like the one I missed on the IWI Galils. I won't miss the next one unless it sales out quickly. I have everything I need and more, so this will just be another toy. So I can wait until I get a deal on one. In fact, in between meetings at work, I buy guns online to help with stress. I put in low bids on Gunbroker daily and only have a 2-3% success rate. But that means I buying 2-3 guns a month since I bid so often. |
That wobbly safety selector at the 8:05 mark isn't very inspiring   (FIRST LOOK) NEW IWI Carmel |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Carmel is Shipping (Page 1 of 3)
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