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Posted: 8/6/2017 11:21:42 AM EDT
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I've been googling my ass off, but I can't find a reference.
On most of the authoritative step-by-step instructions for dropping a form 1/4, it says the SSN is optional on the fingerprint card. I have seen examples where people have gotten emails from ATF agents implying it was not optional... What is the final authority on this? It seems that would be with the CFR or Fedgov, not ATF. I checked the Social Security web page, and it only answered questions about giving your SSN to private companies. Do I have to put an SSN on a fingerprint card? -Thx FWIW, I just hate doing it. I've never done it before (I have a lot of stamps). I like to give as little as possible, 'cause I'm a dick like that. |
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No, you don’t have to give it
they also do not have to approve your paperwork. While I agree and hate to use my ssn as a national Id number, giving atf a reason to delay or refuse your transfer furthers their goal of harassment. Your choice, play along & get what you want or play hardball and expect problems. Good luck, let us know how it turns out! |
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Quoted:
No, you don’t have to give it they also do not have to approve your paperwork. While I agree and hate to use my ssn as a national Id number, giving atf a reason to delay or refuse your transfer furthers their goal of harassment. Your choice, play along & get what you want or play hardball and expect problems. Good luck, let us know how it turns out! 
I'm with the op. make the .gov follow its damn rules. now, we need to find those rules |
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Other than an issue with the mail being stolen or delivered to the wrong place, what is the reason to withhold it?
You gave them your finger prints. They are running a fairly extensive background check. They are the ATF and FBI, do you think they can't get your ssn if they want it. The federal government probably has a profile on what kind of porn you watch online. After 9/11 we lost a lot of assumed privacy. |
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Quoted:
Other than an issue with the mail being stolen or delivered to the wrong place, what is the reason to withhold it? You gave them your finger prints. They are running a fairly extensive background check. They are the ATF and FBI, do you think they can't get your ssn if they want it. The federal government probably has a profile on what kind of porn you watch online. After 9/11 we lost a lot of assumed privacy. |
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The background check is not "fairly extensive" at all. They simply run a check through NICS. If you pass the background check for a standard firearm, you will pass the NFA check as well. The NFA Fingerprint check, all they do is run your prints through the FBI/Criminal Master File, if no hits your check is done and you passed. |
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NICS is the system FFLs use. The FBI is using IAFIS, NCIC, and the Interstate Identification Index to process NFA background checks. The results are essentially the same.
You are not required to provide your SSN. If it was required, ATF/FBI would have to state so on their forms, pursuant to The Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579). Sec. 7. [5 U.S.C. 552a note] (a)(1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.
(2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to— (A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or (B) the disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the identity of an individual. The back of the FD-258 (Instruction 2) states: The Privacy Act of 1974 (PL 93-579) requires that local, state, or federal agencies inform individuals whose Social Security number is being requested whether such disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, the basis of authority for such solicitation, and the uses which will be made of it. According to FBI Guidelines for Preparation of Fingerprint Cards, the required fields are: Name (NAM) Originating Agency Identifier (ORI) Number Date of Birth (DOB) Sex (SEX) Fingerprint Impressions Therefore the SSN is not required by the FBI on their FD-258 form for civil applicants. (Your SSN may be requested pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 534 however disclosure is not mandatory.) When reviewing ATF documentation for SSN submission guidance, we find it is not required on Form 4473: Must a transferee provide his or her social security number on the ATF Form 4473? This FAQ cites 27 CFR 478.124 (c)(2) In order to facilitate the transfer of a firearm and enable NICS to verify the identity of the person acquiring the firearm, ATF Form 4473 also requests certain optional information. This information includes the transferee's social security number. Such information may help avoid the possibility of the transferee being misidentified as a felon or other prohibited person. From Section III, Paragraph B. "Amendment of §§ 479.62 and 479.63" • A completed ATF Form 5320.23 for each responsible person. Form 5320.23 would require certain identifying information for each responsible person, including each responsible person’s full name, position, social security number (optional), home address, date and place of birth, and country of citizenship |
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Quoted:
sure. give up your rights out of expedience for yourself.
I'm with the op. make the .gov follow its damn rules. now, we need to find those rules You realize the government issued you that SSN, this isn't some super secret password that you only know. |
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I get a kick out of some of this. It reminds me of my wife's uncle. He was shitting himself when he found out I had my concealed carry. He is so paranoid he has never bought a gun from a ffl, only face to face.
"Why would you do that, now you're in the system! Now they know you have guns. When they come for the guns they'll take yours first." My reply was that "Now they know I have ONE gun, and that is what I'll turn in if they ever come for them. The rest will get burried in pvc pipe in the woods." You have to love the old paranoid hippies. They are a blast to have a conversation with. "The man is gonna get you" etc etc. Renting a house and paying in cash. Working under the table jobs. Vehicles titled in other peoples names. No credit cards, utilities in landlords name. If I didn't know better I would say he was a criminal on the run from the law, but he's not. He's just nuts. He is a blast though. I think he got messed up while in the marines back in the day. That is why I try to not judge his life choices or paranoia. He saw some bad stuff and that was back before they did anything to help soldiers with ptsd. |
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FWIW, Silencershop puts on SSN's on their cards that they mail out as part of the kiosk systems. As to why I don't want to give it, if you can't figure that out on your own, my explanation probably won't help...but if it's not required, why would you? KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer. |
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Society is full of misconceptions about the law and what the .gov/leo can and can not do.
Make the government actually follow those 'laws'. Our founding fathers were intelligent and experienced, the BOR has the limitations on the government for a reason. not required? you don't get it. want to search my house? get a warrant etc.. you only have rights if you use them |
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FWIW...
I got a call from local dealer here today asking about SSNs on FP cards. He asked because he never put them on there, but the ATF has been called him or the transferee for every one that was submitted without the info, requesting it for the BG check. Not sure if anybody has refused to provide it or not, but apparently somebody at the ATF no longer things it's optional. |
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KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer. Quoted:
KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer. 
This You are not required to provide your SSN. If it was required, ATF/FBI would have to state so on their forms, pursuant to The Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579). ATF, FBI, and many other agencies have most/all of their systems of records exempt from The Privacy Act. Here's the Privacy Act: 5 U.S.C. §552a. Records maintained on individuals Note (e)(3): (3) inform each individual whom it asks to supply information, on the form which it uses to collect the information or on a separate form that can be retained by the individual—
(A) the authority (whether granted by statute, or by executive order of the President) which authorizes the solicitation of the information and whether disclosure of such information is mandatory or voluntary; (B) the principal purpose or purposes for which the information is intended to be used; (C) the routine uses which may be made of the information, as published pursuant to paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection; and (D) the effects on him, if any, of not providing all or any part of the requested information; (1) Criminal Investigation Report System (JUSTICE/ATF-003)
... (b)(8): From subsection (e)(3) because disclosure would provide the subject with substantial information that could impede or compromise the investigation. The individual could seriously interfere with undercover investigative activities and could take steps to evade the investigation or flee a specific area. 28 CFR §16.96 exempts certain FBI systems. (e) The following system of records is exempt from 5 U.S.C. 552a(c) (3) and (4), (d), (e) (1), (2) and (3), (e)(4) (G) and (H), (e) (5) and (8), (f), and (g):
(1) Identification Division Records System (JUSTICE/FBI-009).... (5) From subsection (e)(3) because compliance is not feasible due to the nature of the records. So it looks like they aren't required to tell you, but I'm still going to guess the SSN isn't required. I really don't have the time to research this any further. |
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