Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 8/6/2017 10:21:42 AM EST
I've been googling my ass off, but I can't find a reference.

On most of the authoritative step-by-step instructions for dropping a form 1/4, it says the SSN is optional on the fingerprint card. I have seen examples where people have gotten emails from ATF agents implying it was not optional... What is the final authority on this? It seems that would be with the CFR or Fedgov, not ATF. I checked the Social Security web page, and it only answered questions about giving your SSN to private companies.

Do I have to put an SSN on a fingerprint card?

-Thx

FWIW, I just hate doing it. I've never done it before (I have a lot of stamps). I like to give as little as possible, 'cause I'm a dick like that.
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 10:46:55 AM EST
No, you don’t have to give it 

they also do not have to approve your paperwork.  

While I agree and hate to use my ssn as a national Id number, 
giving atf a reason to delay or refuse your transfer furthers their goal of harassment.     

Your choice, play along & get what you want or play hardball and expect problems. 

Good luck, let us know how it turns out! 
Link Posted: 8/6/2017 11:11:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/13/2017 1:08:17 PM EST
Other than an issue with the mail being stolen or delivered to the wrong place, what is the reason to withhold it?

You gave them your finger prints. They are running a fairly extensive background check. They are the ATF and FBI, do you think they can't get your ssn if they want it. The federal government probably has a profile on what kind of porn you watch online. After 9/11 we lost a lot of assumed privacy.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 3:56:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2017 3:59:01 PM EST by CAR-AR-M16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Coble9:
Other than an issue with the mail being stolen or delivered to the wrong place, what is the reason to withhold it?

You gave them your finger prints. They are running a fairly extensive background check. They are the ATF and FBI, do you think they can't get your ssn if they want it. The federal government probably has a profile on what kind of porn you watch online. After 9/11 we lost a lot of assumed privacy.
View Quote
The background check is not "fairly extensive" at all. They simply run a check through NICS. If you pass the background check for a standard firearm, you will pass the NFA check as well.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 4:16:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CAR-AR-M16:
The background check is not "fairly extensive" at all. They simply run a check through NICS. If you pass the background check for a standard firearm, you will pass the NFA check as well.
View Quote
NICS is the online instant check.

The NFA Fingerprint check, all they do is run your prints through the FBI/Criminal Master File, if no hits your check is done and you passed.
Link Posted: 8/14/2017 6:36:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/14/2017 9:44:39 PM EST by KitBuilder]
NICS is the system FFLs use. The FBI is using IAFIS, NCIC, and the Interstate Identification Index to process NFA background checks. The results are essentially the same.

You are not required to provide your SSN. If it was required, ATF/FBI would have to state so on their forms, pursuant to The Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579).
Sec. 7. [5 U.S.C. 552a note] (a)(1)  It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.
(2)  the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not apply with respect to—
(A)  any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or
(B)  the disclosure of a social security number to any Federal, State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to verify the identity of an individual.
View Quote
Arguably, the system of records for the NFRTR and NFA forms was established in 1934, but I find no attempt by BATFE to claim such exemption.

The back of the FD-258 (Instruction 2) states: The Privacy Act of 1974 (PL 93-579) requires that local, state, or federal agencies inform individuals whose Social Security number is being requested whether such disclosure is mandatory or voluntary, the basis of authority for such solicitation, and the uses which will be made of it.

According to FBI Guidelines for Preparation of Fingerprint Cards, the required fields are:
Name (NAM)
Originating Agency Identifier (ORI) Number
Date of Birth (DOB)
Sex (SEX)
Charge (not applicable to FD-258 civil prints)
Fingerprint Impressions

Therefore the SSN is not required by the FBI on their FD-258 form for civil applicants.
(Your SSN may be requested pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 534 however disclosure is not mandatory.)


When reviewing ATF documentation for SSN submission guidance, we find it is not required on Form 4473:
Must a transferee provide his or her social security number on the ATF Form 4473?
This FAQ cites 27 CFR 478.124
(c)(2) In order to facilitate the transfer of a firearm and enable NICS to verify the identity of the person acquiring the firearm, ATF Form 4473 also requests certain optional information. This information includes the transferee's social security number. Such information may help avoid the possibility of the transferee being misidentified as a felon or other prohibited person.
View Quote
Similar language referring to the SSN being optional is also found in the latest law changes, relative to ATF-41F (81 FR 2721).
From Section III, Paragraph B. "Amendment of §§ 479.62 and 479.63"

• A completed ATF Form 5320.23 for each responsible person. Form 5320.23 would require certain identifying information for each responsible person, including each responsible person’s full name, position, social security number (optional), home address, date and place of birth, and country of citizenship
View Quote
Language requiring a SSN does not appear in 27 CFR §§ 479.62 and 479.63
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 8:44:31 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RED_5:



sure. give up your rights out of expedience for yourself.

I'm with the op. make the .gov follow its damn rules. now, we need to find those rules
View Quote
Your rights? lol


You realize the government issued you that SSN, this isn't some super secret password that you only know.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 8:46:00 AM EST
FWIW, Silencershop puts on SSN's on their cards that they mail out as part of the kiosk systems.
Link Posted: 8/15/2017 9:42:17 AM EST
I get a kick out of some of this. It reminds me of my wife's uncle. He was shitting himself when he found out I had my concealed carry. He is so paranoid he has never bought a gun from a ffl, only face to face.

"Why would you do that, now you're in the system! Now they know you have guns. When they come for the guns they'll take yours first."

My reply was that "Now they know I have ONE gun, and that is what I'll turn in if they ever come for them. The rest will get burried in pvc pipe in the woods."

You have to love the old paranoid hippies. They are a blast to have a conversation with. "The man is gonna get you" etc etc. Renting a house and paying in cash. Working under the table jobs. Vehicles titled in other peoples names. No credit cards, utilities in landlords name. If I didn't know better I would say he was a criminal on the run from the law, but he's not. He's just nuts. He is a blast though. I think he got messed up while in the marines back in the day. That is why I try to not judge his life choices or paranoia. He saw some bad stuff and that was back before they did anything to help soldiers with ptsd.
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 6:58:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TacticalHeater:
FWIW, Silencershop puts on SSN's on their cards that they mail out as part of the kiosk systems.
View Quote
No they don't, if you don't give it to them.

As to why I don't want to give it, if you can't figure that out on your own, my explanation probably won't help...but if it's not required, why would you?



KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer.
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 9:48:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2017 9:56:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:52:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By eodinert:
KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By eodinert:
KitBuilder, thank you for the comprehensive answer.
You're welcome, but my answer wasn't very complete. 


This
You are not required to provide your SSN. If it was required, ATF/FBI would have to state so on their forms, pursuant to The Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579).
is not accurate.



ATF, FBI, and many other agencies have most/all of their systems of records exempt from The Privacy Act.

Here's the Privacy Act: 5 U.S.C. §552a. Records maintained on individuals
Note (e)(3):
(3) inform each individual whom it asks to supply information, on the form which it uses to collect the information or on a separate form that can be retained by the individual—
(A) the authority (whether granted by statute, or by executive order of the President) which authorizes the solicitation of the information and whether disclosure of such information is mandatory or voluntary;
(B) the principal purpose or purposes for which the information is intended to be used;
(C) the routine uses which may be made of the information, as published pursuant to paragraph (4)(D) of this subsection; and
(D) the effects on him, if any, of not providing all or any part of the requested information;
Here is an excerpt from 28 CFR §16.106 - Exemption of ATF-Limited Access
(1) Criminal Investigation Report System (JUSTICE/ATF-003)
...
(b)(8): From subsection (e)(3) because disclosure would provide the subject with substantial information that could impede or compromise the investigation. The individual could seriously interfere with undercover investigative activities and could take steps to evade the investigation or flee a specific area.
I'm not sure which system contains the NFRTR database. It probably is not ATF-003, since data submitted on NFA forms cannot be used for prosecution. I did not find a SORN (System of Records Notice) for it.


28 CFR §16.96 exempts certain FBI systems.
(e) The following system of records is exempt from 5 U.S.C. 552a(c) (3) and (4), (d), (e) (1), (2) and (3), (e)(4) (G) and (H), (e) (5) and (8), (f), and (g):
(1) Identification Division Records System (JUSTICE/FBI-009)....
(5) From subsection (e)(3) because compliance is not feasible due to the nature of the records.
The Privacy Act Information here on page 2 would be an example of an ATF solicitation for mandatory information, where SSN disclosure is still voluntary: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4587-application-register-importer-us-munitions-import-list-articles-atf/download


So it looks like they aren't required to tell you, but I'm still going to guess the SSN isn't required. I really don't have the time to research this any further.
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 2:17:15 PM EST
I got a phone call from the NFA branch today. They were missing some info on the cards that Capitol Armory sent in for me. One of those things was my SSN. So, I'd say it's required.
Link Posted: 8/31/2017 3:09:45 PM EST
If the ATF knew it's own rules, I might agree with you. They have been inconsistent on many things in the past, and I am never surprised when the contradict themselves, or the law.

I'm not saying they won't kick your stuff back... I'm saying it's not required.
Top Top