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Posted: 3/14/2002 10:52:46 AM EDT
I'd just like to know what you guys would pick?
I'm looking at a few pistols to get and I don't know if I should go for hi-cap 9mm or a 45acp.

The hi-cap 9mm the ammo is cheap you can get hi-cap mags for $15 for them and it is what the military will be using so there will be a lot of ammo also JHP are cheap for this gun.But stopping power is not the best.

45ACP it has great stopping power and mags are cheap.


I don't know what one I should go with if any of you guy's can give me some more pros' and con's of these pistols that would help.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 9:11:13 PM EDT by Unrepentant_Sinner]
I would go with the Sig P226

Pros
I like the design
I am comfortable with it
high capacity, 17rds
easily obtainable ammo
cheap ammo
I can shoot it well
reliable as hell
more accurate than I am
double strike capability
mine has night sights---a neccessity

Cons
9mm isn't the most wonderful manstopper


I would take the Sig over the Beretta (easy to find parts) just for personal prefference. I hate the Beretta--don't like anything about it

Just my opinion, I had to git up and go, I would want a gun that had adequate stopping power and lots of rounds that didn't weigh a ton.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:20:04 AM EDT
I second the Sinner. I have Glocks, Kimbers, Taurus and Sig. My normal carry gun is a Glock 23 loaded w/ 155gr SilverTips. If things ever get nasty, I keep the 226 around for the same reasons Sinner listed.

I am not a big fan of the 9mm. As a matter of fact, I always used to say that I would never buy a 9mm. Then I found one in 98% condition with 3 Sig hicaps for $425 at my local dealer. I couldn't pass on it, and since it is the NATO sidearm round ammo will always be available.

I love my Glocks, but with anything but my best handloads for the 23 its accuracy can't even touch the 226 firing cheap USA ball ammo.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:25:24 AM EDT
I would grab my HK USP 45. Its accurate and goes bang evertime I pull the trigger. Never had any problems with it at all. There are still military units using the .45 so ammo shouldnt be to hard to find. I would probably grab my MK II also. Just because ammo is everywhere and taking a few thousand rounds with you wouldnt be a problem.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:37:01 AM EDT
Beretta 92FS.

Fits my hand well, and with the Houge wraparound grips it's a dream to shoot. Mags are easy to get, but can get expensive. Asian Military mags can be found for under $30.

Av.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:49:14 AM EDT
tayous1, is there something you're not sharing with the rest of the class? You've been doing a lot of SHTF equipment questioning lately, and I just want to make sure you'd share any impending SHTF info with your AR15.com brothers.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:00:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
tayous1, is there something you're not sharing with the rest of the class? You've been doing a lot of SHTF equipment questioning lately, and I just want to make sure you'd share any impending SHTF info with your AR15.com brothers.




Good point, I would like to have a heads up too.


--I would choose a Glock probably second in my list, if for nothing more than utter reliability
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:17:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unrepentant_Sinner:
I would go with the Sig P226

Pros
I like the design
I am comfortable with it
high capacity, 17rds
easily obtainable ammo
cheap ammo
I can shoot it well
reliable as hell
more accurate than I am
mine has night sights---a neccessity

Cons
9mm isn't the most wonderful manstopper


I would take the Sig over the Beretta (easy to find parts) just for personal prefference. I hate the Beretta--don't like anything about it

Just my opinion, I had to git up and go, I would want a gun that had adequate stopping power and lots of rounds that didn't weigh a ton.



Like the Sinner said. My P226 has over 42,000 rounds through it (2nd barrel - a BarSto - I'll admit) and it functions more reliably than ANY M1911 I've ever used. I'm sure the $2500 guns might give it a run, but it's the best $700 I ever spent on a gun. I just picked up another 5 factory hi-caps, so I should be good to go. I think my loads should be fully developed after 42,000 rounds.

Funny, though. Lately I've been spending A LOT of time in the garage prepping my gear, guns and ammo. What for? I'm not sure.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:35:09 PM EDT
I have to say Govt-sized 1911, because that is my automatic answer.

But I think 'method of carry' should also be an important topic. If you will be taking out specific targets(sniping), where low-crawling might be used to gain a position, you probably don't want to drag an exposed hammer through the dirt.

You might consider a holter that offers a 'flap', to keep foreign particles from entering the lockwork and bearing surfaces(slide-rails).

It all depends on what you consider 'SHTF'. Too me, it's picking off light-blue helmets that pertrude from and armored UN convoy near my AO. Some people consider home defense & CCW engagments to be 'SHTF'.

I'll still choose a 1911 though.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:36:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Unrepentant_Sinner:

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
tayous1, is there something you're not sharing with the rest of the class? You've been doing a lot of SHTF equipment questioning lately, and I just want to make sure you'd share any impending SHTF info with your AR15.com brothers.




Good point, I would like to have a heads up too.


--I would choose a Glock probably second in my list, if for nothing more than utter reliability



For the last past year I have been trying to make planes for the SHTF I have not been able to do it do to about 6 months ago I was laid-off and we had all these bills coming in I also almost had to have a pin placed in my hand so I had medical bills also.

I had to sell my Llama XMII 45(Yes it sucked), Firestorm 45, S&W 39-2 9mm, Remington 700 BDL DM 30-06 and last my Mini-14 in the last past 6 months to help pay of bills and stuff.

Now I got a job I'm getting paid better then before so now I'm getting this stuff together. My wife does not want a rifle she want's my Glock 22 if the SHTF. So right now I'm just looking for a pistol and maybe another rifle for me .

If I know anything I'd let you guys know about it. I just feel I have nothing right now Just a 12ga and a Glock I need my battle rifle soon.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:52:54 PM EDT

t,

a 12ga and a glock could be extremely useful in a bad situation. a lot of versatility there. i dont know how well equipped you are with other shtf gear, but i think you are off to a good start.

the idea of a shtf pistol crossed my mind, but when i looked at the options i decided to jsut go with what i already have for now and adress other weak areas in my gear.

i do like the 9mm for the reasons mentioned. but it would be a big investement for me to switch to that (from .40). not to mention the time and effort to get comfortable and skilled with a new pistol.

part of me feels that in light of all the other preparations that are possible, if it comes down to the difference between a .45/.40/9mm i probably screwed up somewhere along the way.

Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:56:14 PM EDT
My cousin's theory for SHTF pistol is to have one in every calibur incase you have to buy ammo from your neighbors. Right now he has all the popular caliburs covered except 9mm. My theory is the exact opposite. I say have 2 main good guns in the same calibur, that way you only got to stockpile one type of ammo.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:00:16 PM EDT
I'd say a 45 plus plenty of beer, you can trade cold ones for more ammo...
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:03:06 PM EDT
CZ-52,
Tokarev TT-33,
or
Makarov

CZ-52 is astoundingly solid, can double as a hammer.
Has been described as the SKS of handguns.
Makarov.com sells conversions to 9mm Largo.

TT-33 is easy to maintain and has a distinguised service history.
The Russian equivalent to the 1911.

Both of the above are chambered for 7.62x25, a dandy cartridge if there ver was one.

Or, choose a Makarov. Small enough for anyone to use, cheap enough for bartering in a SHTF scenario, ballistically between .380 and 9mm Parabellum.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:08:52 PM EDT
If I'm going to get a 9mm because Hi-cap mags and the pistol don't cost a lot I think Id go with the Beretta because if the Shit does hit the fan there will be a lot of Beretta mags around the place to pick up.


If I got with a 45ACP I'm going to get a 1911 so I can stock up on mags that are cheap and parts and upgrades are cheap for it also.


With the Sig 9mm how much do they cost? Also how much are there hi-cap and 10rd mags going for?



Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:12:51 PM EDT
Depends on what you mean by SHTF.

If you mean just an all out shoot out in your back yard, I'd pick my .357 sig w/night sights

If it's simple woods survival, I'd go w/ a robust revolver (686/586, super blackhawk ect.)

If it's a military invasion type situation you're worrying about, I would go with the standard us sidearm; you should be familiar w/ standard us small arms and it would offer availability of spare parts that other pistols would not
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:20:57 PM EDT
For the 9mm have you condidered a Hipower clone? They are extremely cheap and readily available at the moment. SOG has FM (FN contract) Hipowers for $250, and my father and I just picked up a couple FEG PJK-9HP's (Hungarian Hipowers made on FN equipment) for $185 a piece from RSR(it is great to do things as a family isn't it). The fit and finish on the FEGs are incredible by any standards, but especially for a pistol that was under $200. Hicapacity mags are very easy and cheap to come by, I just bought a couple of KRD 17 round mags from CDNN for $20 each.

Kyle
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:24:47 PM EDT
Glock 21 with night sights.
M3 tactical light w/3-13 round mags.
&
Glock 30 (for concealment, if needed)
The 21 mags fit both.
If still alive after .45, run!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:28:22 PM EDT
I'd go with what I have now and lots of ammo...lol. Seriously, I'm looking at getting a couple of hi cap 9's to add to my safe, mainly for practicality, since there are more hicap mags out there for these guns, and 9 is cheaper than 40. I'm probably going to get a browning hipower, and a cz75, already have a Taurus 92, with 8 hi cap mags, it's reliable and I love the safety versus the beretta. I have a Ruger p89 my dad bought me, with just two mags though. The main reason to get a couple more is neither of these pistols has the accuracy I want, although after Jarvis gets done with the taurus it'll be cool. But, as far as taking 1000 round classes, I'd rather have a 9 to feed than a 40 or 45. Oh, I have an affinity for Glocks, but just can't find the mags cheap enough for me.

As far as SHTF.... I would say if we are talking survival, I'd want a .357 or .44, with plenty of components for reloading stocked, but I don't think we are going to have to deal with that since the cold war is over. Of course, never hurts to be prepared!..:-) If we are talking invasion type scenario...I figure that truthfully there will be enough battle rifles laying next to bodies to pick up and use. You know....good condition stuff, never fired, only dropped once. Just saying that probably finding an M4 and loaded magazines might not be that hard in that scenario.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 2:20:15 PM EDT
Well I suppose my ultimate answer would depend upon the context but my "go to" pistols right now are a pair of full size HK USP's in .40S&W -- loaded with either 155gr ProLoad JHP or Federal Hydrashoks. USP's are indestructable, completely reliable, light recoiling, and combat accurate. Don't want to get into a "my caliber is better than your caliber argument" here but there IS something to be said for having a relatively common caliber in SHTF scenario. While 9mm is probably the most ubiquitous pistol round, .40S&W is coming close. And with the supply of ammo I keep, I'm not to worried about running dry. Besides, in a true SHTF scenario, the only reasons I'd go for a pistol are (1) I'm fighting my way to my rifles and shotguns or (2) I've run my rifles and shotguns completely empty.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:14:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
My cousin's theory for SHTF pistol is to have one in every calibur incase you have to buy ammo from your neighbors. Right now he has all the popular caliburs covered except 9mm. My theory is the exact opposite. I say have 2 main good guns in the same calibur, that way you only got to stockpile one type of ammo.



Good answer.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:21:44 PM EDT
M1 Abrams, Apache Helicopter, Backpack Nuke.


Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:31:43 PM EDT
I have several of the usual shtf guns allready and the pistols I own are mainly 45acp. I also have a pair of glock 9mm's in case 9mm i available. I prefer the power of 357 sig in many guns and keep a case of it on hand to feed three 357 sigs. Owning a couple handgun and 500 rounds of ammo should be plenty. The rifle is a much more critical part of your inventory. Having two of the same handgun that you shoot well makes sense as well because they share ammo and magazines and once you are familiar with one the other is a backup kept almost new...
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 4:31:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ronin47:
Well I suppose my ultimate answer would depend upon the context but my "go to" pistols right now are a pair of full size HK USP's in .40S&W -- loaded with either 155gr ProLoad JHP or Federal Hydrashoks. USP's are indestructable, completely reliable, light recoiling, and combat accurate. Don't want to get into a "my caliber is better than your caliber argument" here but there IS something to be said for having a relatively common caliber in SHTF scenario. While 9mm is probably the most ubiquitous pistol round, .40S&W is coming close. And with the supply of ammo I keep, I'm not to worried about running dry. Besides, in a true SHTF scenario, the only reasons I'd go for a pistol are (1) I'm fighting my way to my rifles and shotguns or (2) I've run my rifles and shotguns completely empty.



I like the 40 I have a Glock 22 but the cost of getting another Glock is what is getting me down right now. I have a limited amount of money to spend on the battle rifle and a pistol, mag and ammo.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 9:08:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
My cousin's theory for SHTF pistol is to have one in every calibur incase you have to buy ammo from your neighbors. Right now he has all the popular caliburs covered except 9mm. My theory is the exact opposite. I say have 2 main good guns in the same calibur, that way you only got to stockpile one type of ammo.




That is funny, BUY ammo from your neighbors, lol
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 10:51:47 PM EDT
I personally try to stay as close to NATO as possable.

ONLY NATO ROUNDS

US Military Rifles & Handguns

You can stock up all you want with surplus ammo. If you do have to move, and leave the stockpile behind, you are much more likely to find replacment ammo/parts at your destination if the military is using it, Period.

As yourself how much not NATO ammo such as .38 is around in Afganistan vs. 9mm.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 12:32:53 AM EDT
glocks are almost imposible to break, have a great capacity (good thing if you are engaging multiple targets, or taking cover by fire), reliable as hell, great grip, they WILL fire under ANY circunstances, are lighter than most pistols, good sights, you wouldn't have to worry about cocking it or about the safe, they WILL go boom everytime you pull the trigger, can be easily converted into FA and have great accesories like this one below:

that's why i'd use a glock.....
but my top three pistols are:
GLOCK17 of course
SIG P226 (i like the ergonomics, the trigger)
1911 i don't need to say anything about that one
HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 12:48:47 AM EDT
my .02...

I don't understand why folks keep perpetuating the idea that 9mm is a poor manstopper. It will kill you, period. If there's a man out there that can take 15 rounds of Hydrashoks and still take a step toward me, hell, I'll kill myself and save him the trouble. If you can shoot your weapon right, you can kill with any caliber. better to hit with a 9mm than miss with a .45.

I'm still waiting for the first person to volunteer his body to test the theory that 9mm is a poor manstopper, lol.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:08:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxwell05:
I personally try to stay as close to NATO as possable.

ONLY NATO ROUNDS

US Military Rifles & Handguns

You can stock up all you want with surplus ammo. If you do have to move, and leave the stockpile behind, you are much more likely to find replacment ammo/parts at your destination if the military is using it, Period.

As yourself how much not NATO ammo such as .38 is around in Afganistan vs. 9mm.



If you have left the safety of your personal hole, and are scrounging for ammo, you could also pick up the weapon of the person whose ammo you are taking. Then you most likely have a ready to fire weapon, and more rounds. 2 for 1! Or were you asking our soldiers to loan you their ammo? Just a thought, no flame intended.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:16:41 AM EDT
I like the USP .45 myself, Bang! every time, won't miss if you don't, and I am very comfortable with it. That seems to be the most important thing to me, comfort and confidense in the weapon. Then LOTS of ammo.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:10:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buddha:
my .02...

I don't understand why folks keep perpetuating the idea that 9mm is a poor manstopper. It will kill you, period. If there's a man out there that can take 15 rounds of Hydrashoks and still take a step toward me, hell, I'll kill myself and save him the trouble. If you can shoot your weapon right, you can kill with any caliber. better to hit with a 9mm than miss with a .45.

I'm still waiting for the first person to volunteer his body to test the theory that 9mm is a poor manstopper, lol.



Glad to see you back!....
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:37:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxwell05:
I personally try to stay as close to NATO as possable.

ONLY NATO ROUNDS

US Military Rifles & Handguns

You can stock up all you want with surplus ammo. If you do have to move, and leave the stockpile behind, you are much more likely to find replacment ammo/parts at your destination if the military is using it, Period.

As yourself how much not NATO ammo such as .38 is around in Afganistan vs. 9mm.



I'm sorry but I just don't get this logic. Just because the military is using 9mm doesn't mean that 9mm shells and parts are just gonna be laying all over the place. Just how are you gonna get 9mm ammo and parts from the military ?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:00:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Buddha:
my .02...

I don't understand why folks keep perpetuating the idea that 9mm is a poor manstopper. It will kill you, period. If there's a man out there that can take 15 rounds of Hydrashoks and still take a step toward me, hell, I'll kill myself and save him the trouble. If you can shoot your weapon right, you can kill with any caliber. better to hit with a 9mm than miss with a .45.

I'm still waiting for the first person to volunteer his body to test the theory that 9mm is a poor manstopper, lol.



No flame on you or anything like that. But the IL state PD changed to the 40S&W after they had a guy who was about 350lbs on drugs charge them three officers shot him 15 or more times and the guy never dropped and some of the shots hit vital areas.

It was not until a Cook County officer came in and shot the guy with a 12ga with 00buckshot that he dropped.

Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:01:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maxwell05:
As yourself how much not NATO ammo such as .38 is around in Afganistan vs. 9mm.



While this may have some relevance if I'm going to Afghanistan, I don't think finding .38SPL rounds in the US would be a problem. Or .40S&W for that matter -- as it's becoming the rising star in law enforcement purchases.

Still, this assumes that you're going to find dead bodies with lots of ammo on them or caches of ammo of the people that you're killing. I don't know about anybody else but that's not part of my primary SHTF contingency. But if it comes to that, I'll assume that the "bad guys" have guns through which they're pumping their ammo. So if my gun isn't the same caliber as theirs, if I've got their ammo, I'll presume I've got their guns as well. Problem solved.

If I need to barter or some such thing to get more ammo, then the huge supplies of any commonly available loading in this country would suggest that, as long as I don't have a truly unusual gun (e.g. .38Super, .454Casull), I'll be able to extend my existing cache.

As long as it's a credible manstopper (9mm and higher), with specific caliber considerations aside for a SHTF pistol, I'd pick the gun that (a) I'm most comfortable shooting and (b) will put rounds downrange every single time I pull the trigger without fail even under the most horrendous conditions. For me, that's a USP. For you, that's whatever satisfies your criteria.

Since you (Tayous1) already have a Glock, I'd stick with the Glock line if you're planning on another pistol. But with a 12ga and a Glock 22 already, I think you've already satisfied your SHTF pistol requirement; I'd save up for a battle rifle. THEN, worry about getting another pistol so that you and your wife can each have one.

And, of course, buy lots of ammo and spend lots of time practicing.

My humble .02
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:26:47 AM EDT

No flame on you or anything like that. But the IL state PD changed to the 40S&W after they had a guy who was about 350lbs on drugs charge them three officers shot him 15 or more times and the guy never dropped and some of the shots hit vital areas.





Where?....in the head?....LOL!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:40:44 AM EDT
lemme throw something in here...caliber does not matter if you can make proper shot placement..lack of marksmanship is not made up for by using a bigger caliber...u should shoot the largest caliber that you can use effectively with proficiency.......just my .02!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:43:40 AM EDT
Browning HiPower. It is the best pistol available and it has been around awhile so parts and magazines are readily available.

Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:55:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 10:58:41 AM EDT by Carbine_Man]
What's so hard about this question? The answer is:
  • The one that is completely reliable...
  • ...which you can shoot well...
  • ...for which you have ammo...
  • ...of whatever caliber and action that makes you happy...
  • ...and happens to be in your possession when the SHTF.

After that, its a matter of taste.

JMHO... Nomex underwear on... flame away!!!

{Me, I like my CZ!!!}
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:03:45 AM EDT
H&K USP 45
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:52:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 12:12:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kevin:

Originally Posted By tayous1:
For the last past year I have been trying to make planes for the SHTF...



So your gonna have an air force for SHTF huh??



I thought of that but the wife said no to me.

I just been trying to get basic stuff together like water, Long term storage food , Medical supplies and stuff like that. Stuff that you can also use if we have a bad weather.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 12:13:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HUNTER223:
glocks are almost imposible to break, have a great capacity (good thing if you are engaging multiple targets, or taking cover by fire), reliable as hell, great grip, they WILL fire under ANY circunstances, are lighter than most pistols, good sights, you wouldn't have to worry about cocking it or about the safe, they WILL go boom everytime you pull the trigger, can be easily converted into FA and have great accesories like this one below:

that's why i'd use a glock.....
but my top three pistols are:
GLOCK17 of course
SIG P226 (i like the ergonomics, the trigger)
1911 i don't need to say anything about that one
HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.



Do you guys have hi-cap mags over there? Or do you have restrictions like how we do?
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:07:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tayous1:
No flame on you or anything like that. But the IL state PD changed to the 40S&W after they had a guy who was about 350lbs on drugs charge them three officers shot him 15 or more times and the guy never dropped and some of the shots hit vital areas.

It was not until a Cook County officer came in and shot the guy with a 12ga with 00buckshot that he dropped.



No flame taken, Tayous, it's a good discussion....Why can't we have more of these?

AR_Rifle, thanks for the welcome back...
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:31:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Buddha:

Originally Posted By tayous1:
No flame on you or anything like that. But the IL state PD changed to the 40S&W after they had a guy who was about 350lbs on drugs charge them three officers shot him 15 or more times and the guy never dropped and some of the shots hit vital areas.

It was not until a Cook County officer came in and shot the guy with a 12ga with 00buckshot that he dropped.



No flame taken, Tayous, it's a good discussion....Why can't we have more of these?

AR_Rifle, thanks for the welcome back...



Don't know man I hope that maybe a few other people can bring up some also.



Anyway I have been thinking. I think I want to get a heavy hitting round like 45 or a 357 because if the SHTF there will be 9mm all over the place. I like the 45acp over the 357 do to faster reloading and shooting it would be faster.

But I like how the 357 can use 38spl ammo and I can also use it for hunting. At least i have narrowed it down to two gun's and calibers.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:32:06 PM EDT
Glock 20 10mm with 15rnd hi-cap in one hand and Glock 21 .45 with 13rnd hi-cap in the other.

Link Posted: 3/15/2002 2:26:54 PM EDT
Beretta 92FS

Because it shoots the very plentiful 9mm cartridge and will feed just just about anything on the market.

It is the sidearm of the US military chambered in the NATO standard 9mm round.

Very easy to maintain.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 7:57:42 PM EDT
You say WTSHTF , well i own all of the above pistols and can roll beer cans with my pf92,pt92, but also can shoot just as well with my 1911. less mag capacity but can change a mag quickly and since there have been 45 replys since you posted. i go with the .45acp in any kind of pistol you want to put it in! plus if i have to put two rounds in every perp to stop him then i'm back to square one again seven perps with 15 9mm rounds or seven perps with seven+1 with .45. 45 for me and if i can just get two of them to line up!! bob cole
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:23:56 PM EDT
Forgot to add from what i have read the 9x19 lugar round was developed for german tank men where rifles were just to cumbersome to have in there tanks,the tankers lugar was by the way about a 14inch barrel worked good in its day! I also have a 1984 desert eagle which was designed for the israile tankers for just the same reason. short light 4 and i/2 pounds(lighter than a rifle) And if using a hornaby 125grn hollow point can be quite efficent as a man-stopper but if you use a 154 grain jacketed soft point it blows right on through a perp! better be a head ,spinal cord .ect shot! If anything the 9mm gets over pen,but you don't have to use the nato-round and with the right bullet the nine is quite leathel... and i think the 308 is a great round in the M-60....bob cole
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 9:54:47 PM EDT
H & K sp-89
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tayous1:

Originally Posted By HUNTER223:
glocks are almost imposible to break, have a great capacity (good thing if you are engaging multiple targets, or taking cover by fire), reliable as hell, great grip, they WILL fire under ANY circunstances, are lighter than most pistols, good sights, you wouldn't have to worry about cocking it or about the safe, they WILL go boom everytime you pull the trigger, can be easily converted into FA and have great accesories like this one below:

that's why i'd use a glock.....
but my top three pistols are:
GLOCK17 of course
SIG P226 (i like the ergonomics, the trigger)
1911 i don't need to say anything about that one
HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.



Do you guys have hi-cap mags over there? Or do you have restrictions like how we do?


That's afirmative on the high caps, i've got a few of them 32 rounds 30 + 2 floorplates.
HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 11:17:49 PM EDT
For SHTF, if you only require one pistol, for yourself, a Glock 17 or Sig P226. Either one is extremely reliable, my personal preference being towards the Glock. 9mm because it works fine and is found everywhere.

However, if you are really more practical about SHTF, my personal belief/situation is that in a Bad Situation we are better off arming and organizing other people (lots of willing but unarmed relatives, friends, neighbors :P), and one isn't going to be able to arm many people with $500 pistols. $200 (and sometimes less) Hungarian and Bulgarian High Powers are reliable, inexpensive, and shoot the same 9mm nato rounds as the more expensive pistols. On even more of a budget crunch, Makarovs may be 9x18 but there are alot of people who aren't around to complain about this "ineffective" round, and the pistols are only $100 each. I don't know what prices are like in your area, but in this area, I can buy 3 new FEG PJK (Hungarian High Power) pistols for the price of a (new) Sig P226, 2.5 for the price of a Glock 17.

It really all depends on your definition of SHTF - if you're talking about fighting the UN, a hostile government (ours or somebody else's) - wake up and smell the coffee. By yourself, all you are going to do is get killed. However, if every person on this board puts away enough of an "arsenal" to supply at least 10-20 men, and learns the skills to train them, well, suddenly there is the potential for a pretty large guerilla/resistance force in the event of an invasion or what have you.
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