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Posted: 4/1/2020 12:39:46 AM EDT
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Good evening I just wanted to pick your guy’s brain a little. Currently I’m running a single pvs-14 and my current setup involves a unity riser with an Exps 3 on top. It sits pretty tall almost no cheek weld needed ( I chose this setup for scientific reasons.). I also run a perst-4 and have been looking to sell it off to get something with illumination and I think I want something American made. Now... passive aiming with this setup interests me because on other rigs I’ve used the optic didn’t sit this tall I had to really dig in and maneuver to be able to pick it up on the nod and it was uncomfortable and depending how fast I wanted it to happen I’d usually smack my nod on the rifle. With this setup tho it’s very easy, quick, and even comfortable to achieve and the eotech is crisp optic under nods. The only downside is the glass reduces the brightness of the sight picture. Now the question. Do you think for closer range stuff i.e. 150m-ish and in it would be practical to run just an IR flash light something like a TNVC Torch Pro or something less powerful like an m600V? I know passive aiming is used more as a backup if your LAM somehow malfunctions but after testing this setup I feel like it could be put to good use, what do you guys think? |
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No, especially with only a PVS14. I think it's probably almost better to run it the way you described for longer distances rather than closer ones, because you don't need such reflexively-fast acquisition or shots on target, something that's not so quickly done under NVGs as it is under normal conditions anyway, even though your setup may be relatively fast. Frankly, I almost always just shoot with my laser, rarely do I aim down my sights while shooting with NV on. I have a PVS-14 set up over my left eye (dominant) while i still shoot righty. I like it this way, because i can still shoulder my rifle and fire passive with my unaided eye if need-be, but still use my left for the majority of the work. If my laser goes down (i have a Perst-1, Perst-4+, and DBAL D2; aimpoints, one eotech, and a trijicon) then i can either continue using the rifle sight with my non-aided eye and just switch on my OKW or X300 white lights, or just rotate the NVD over to my right eye and shoot that way. I've never been on a two-way-range let alone one with night vision, and I hope I never have to be, but from what I have done, I feel comfortable in saying that you very much need an IR laser if you plan on shooting at night. the lack thereof would be solely because you either plan on: shooting something at a longer range where a laser will be off-point or hinder your holdover ability when compared with an eotech, or shooting at something that won't be moving rapidly as to where you can take your time to set up a shot. |
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Much like H_T above, I run a 14 in a similar function. All posters bring up valid points. My current setup is a PVS14 on my non-dominant (right eye). My rifle is setup with an Aimpoint on a Unity FAST, with a light and laseer. I setup my aimpoint for night shooting (dot at the lowest brightness that will work with a light). This way I can shoot with my IR laser, white light and passive IR. When shooting passive, I can get a red dot on a green screen. All my movements are the exact same as in the daytime. This technique works very well for me. I will say there is a significant caveat--night vision techniques are both technologically AND biologically dependent. What works well for one person may fail miserably for another. The best thing is to try, experiment and see what works best for you. As for the lights, lots of options and both of the ones you mentioned will work just fine. A combination of a good NOD, capable laser and light, with some training and experience will make you very capable under NVGs. |
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Keep a laser. You'll be glad you did. When it gets really dark, the light transmission through your optic, even an EoTech, will make target ID tough necessitating the use of infrared illumination and therefore defeating the original purpose of shooting 'passively' - I realize you aren't really worried about enemies with NVGs and are just looking to have an effective aiming solution, but the laser is the best way to aim. You keep passive for a backup and situational use only (opinion). |
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Quoted: Keep a laser. You'll be glad you did. When it gets really dark, the light transmission through your optic, even an EoTech, will make target ID tough necessitating the use of infrared illumination and therefore defeating the original purpose of shooting 'passively' - I realize you aren't really worried about enemies with NVGs and are just looking to have an effective aiming solution, but the laser is the best way to aim. You keep passive for a backup and situational use only (opinion). Attached File |
| This is where a MAWL shines do to on the fly switchology to go from close to mid to far without twisting knobs, dials or bezels. As for passive tuning an optic on a higher mount is much faster than leaning your head over to see through your RDS, but you loose your irons with some risers. You can run a IR light and RDS like white light, but an LAM will be much faster. If you're concerned your OPFOR also has NODs and you don't want to deploy IR light/laser, then step up to a COTI and aim through your RDS. Just be sure to PID what you're shooting at. |
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I consider myself to be pretty fast with passive aiming--I've been running tall optics since I was turned on to the concept by some cats from up in North Carolina and been training with them for some time with various combinations of risers and mounts, and I do not use passive aiming solely as a "back up" aiming method in case my laser goes down, or OPFOR has NV capabilities, under certain circumstances and situations, it's faster and easier and more effective for me to run my gun off the RDS than with the laser. I don't say any of that to brag--I say it to make the point that I still would never want to give up my laser. While there are some situations where I prefer passive aiming, and some situations where I could "get away" with not having one, there are others where IMHO, the laser is absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. Using the illuminator to push photons into dark areas is absolutely necessary if you're dealing with "real life" threats, and lasers can be used as not just aiming devices, but signalling and communications devices. Yes, you could use a stand-alone IR illuminator as well, but "why?" when most "duty-grade" LAM/MFALs have an IR illuminator built in? Better to have the most powerful white light you can available on demand in case you need to transition. Cover and concealment is a big one--your natural field of view where you can "pick up" a day sight is actually fairly generous, this is not the case with a night vision device. Even panos only have a 97 degree horizontal FOV, you don't have a "wide open world" in the same way you do with natural vision. You'll either compromise speed, cover/concealment, or both if you try to use passive aiming exclusively. Related to the above, it's much more difficult to get a "flash sight picture" with a 40 degree NVD in dynamic, fast moving situations than it is to do either with a laser, or with your unaided eyes during the daytime. Passive NV aiming works great when you're moving in a "predetermined" direction, but not so well when you need to quickly change directions. Passive aiming is also much more affected by automatic brightness control/dimming--even with manual gain capable tubes, the ABC will adjust for whatever the brightest thing in its FOV is, and if your reticle is too bright, it will dim the whole rest of the tube, making it more difficult to detect threats and see detail. Combined with the reduced light transmission through glass, regardless of the optic type or coatings, you might not be able to tell the difference between a friendly, hostile, or bystander, and you're more sensitive to changes in ambient lighting conditions. If you're hitting a structure, for example, the reticle brightness while on the street in mixed outdoor lighting is almost 95% going to be "too bright" once you get inside (also a reason I like multiple NV-settings, not the two that many minimalist "NV-capable" optics have--going back to the other thread, the EOTech by far has the most NV settings at your disposal in NV mode). Depending on your usage, having both a laser and an optic can be critical to rapid and/or rolling transitions between NV and white light, whether you choose to use your laser as primary NV with your RDS on daylight, or primary NV RDS and VIS laser white light. Not all of the reasons, but just a few. If you're setting up an NV plinking gun or a range gun, or even a hunting gun, going passive-only, with or without an additional IR illuminator would probably work just fine--and it's certainly helpful that with the right optic/mount combination, at least you don't need to immediately buy a LAM/MFAL immediately in order to start shooting and training with your NV--however for serious social use or at least potentially so, I would absolutely recommend having both a laser and an NV compatible optic a priority. ~Augee |
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Copy that everyone thanks for the input after reading all your guy’a comments I’ve come to the conclusion that having an LAM is super necessary and using passive aiming has its advantages aswell. I think what I need to do is just get a nice LAM with an illuminator and I’d probably be more happy than just having a laser which doesn’t cut it in some situations. I’m running a mod lite with an OKW head which I love and I’d hate to run another flashlight and be that guy. I’m trying to make this rifle a spork with a knife tapped to it if you will.  Plan now is to get rid of the perst and go for something like a Dbal D2 I understand the D2 is less “stealthy” than other LAMs but I like the idea of having a powerful illuminator over a one that leaves things to be desired. I’d go with the MAWL but I’m afraid if I was that close financially I’d just end up buying a 2nd 14 instead. |
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Quoted: Copy that everyone thanks for the input after reading all your guy’a comments I’ve come to the conclusion that having an LAM is super necessary and using passive aiming has its advantages aswell. I think what I need to do is just get a nice LAM with an illuminator and I’d probably be more happy than just having a laser which doesn’t cut it in some situations. I’m running a mod lite with an OKW head which I love and I’d hate to run another flashlight and be that guy. I’m trying to make this rifle a spork with a knife tapped to it if you will. Plan now is to get rid of the perst and go for something like a Dbal D2 I understand the D2 is less “stealthy” than other LAMs but I like the idea of having a powerful illuminator over a one that leaves things to be desired. I’d go with the MAWL but I’m afraid if I was that close financially I’d just end up buying a 2nd 14 instead. Even though a D2 is a good LAM you're not going to happy unless you buy a MAWL, been there done that. Buying a second 14 to bridge gets very heavy very quickly not just 2 14s but also the counter weight needed to balance you NODs out. With NV the walk arounds work, but getting what you really want the first time saves you a lot of money and you will be more proficient. |
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Quoted: Even though a D2 is a good LAM you're not going to happy unless you buy a MAWL, been there done that. Buying a second 14 to bridge gets very heavy very quickly not just 2 14s but also the counter weight needed to balance you NODs out. With NV the walk arounds work, but getting what you really want the first time saves you a lot of money and you will be more proficient. Yeah I have my reasons for doing dual 14s I know they’re very heavy but personally I think I can live with it. I plan on eventually doing a MAWL but in the mean time I’d like to have an LAM. When I do go night shooting it’s usually not past 150m the video evidence I’ve seen shows them pushing the illum on the D2 way past that. Not trying to dismiss anything you said cause I’d love to get Binos at one point I planned on getting refurbed anvis’s and later transferring them to RNVG housings but I like the idea of being able to break off a nod and pass it on. I also understand there’s the mod 3 bravo but you have to understand Robert Henry gives a hell of a curve ball in those plans with his amazing prices  
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I know two guys who run both DBAL D2s and MAWLs on setups, and they both say that the MAWL's only "noticable" benefit over the D2 is the simplicity of controls and it's design (weight? form?), but that the illuminators are "almost" identical. One said the MAWL was slightly better than the D2, the other said he saw no difference. One of them said he was going to sell his MAWL because he couldn't really justify its price. I've read a little on the Perst-3, the laser is surely better, and it appears that illuminator may be on par or better than those two, but take that with a grain of salt, as it isnt even hearsay from me, but hearsay from me from someone else. You also have to worry about quality, returns, and import regulations changing. The MAWL most certainly has that "ease of use" factor over every other option, nobody can deny that, and I've heard absolutely nothing but great things about it — but are those "great things" and the "ease of use" worth an extra $1,500.00? You be the judge. If you're asking about not running a laser, I'm assuming you are on at least some form of budget and don't have unlimited funds, so for the sharp price increase of a MAWL over these two, i don't think thats worth it unless you are absolutely, undoubtedly going to buy a MAWL at some point, and only plan on having the one NV setup rifle. It isnt worth it for me, so i dont have one. I have a D2 and an OKW on my Noveske AR, and that does me just fine. I really like the D2's illuminator for extended range, and I think you will, too. I don't think that you wont ever be happy without a MAWL, but you definitely won't be sadder owning one! My viewpoint is thay you could buy two D2s and another OKW for the same price as one MAWL, and have two setups. I paid 1,002.79$ for my D2 brand new, and 310$ for my OKW new. It's an awkward and bulky design, the D2, but it's okay if youre running a high mount, or if you're willing to side-mount it like I did. You may also want to look into the Russian Perst-3+, it's got a much more powerful laser than any US made LAM, and the illuminator is (allegedly) on-par with the D2 (i think you can actually tighten the beam even more). I don't have a 3 myself, nor have I seen one in person, but I might buy one shortly. Either way, you need some form of laser, and an illuminator is paramount. The TNVC Torch is an excellent one, but like Augee said, if you already have an OKW, and you're already running a laser (say that Perst-4), then "why" would you want to add yet another piece of kit just for the illuminator when there are plenty of excellent LAMs with illuminators built in. If you were setting up a night hunt rifle, then I'd totally suggest just running a TNVC Torch and some LAM without the illuminator (Or even just passive), because white light on that type of setup isnt really necessary. But that doesnt seem to be your prerogative, so I'd say do it like I do; OKW and a D2. If you're for sure getting a MAWL down the line, just get it over with now and spend that dough, because like the other dude said, The experience of training with it early is extremely valuable as well. Like, you run a D2, and by the time you're completely comfortable with it, you're just going to dump it for a MAWL? Why would you bother with the D2? Not saying "dont," but just think about that. Maybe see if someone nearby has both, or a Perst-3+ as well, and see which is worth it for you. You may find that the D2 or Perst-3 is plenty, and that the extra 1500$ Or 1200$ saved is best spent on 5,000 rounds and a year's worth of night shooting. Or you may find you really love that MAWL, and that's what you need. Now, if TNVC would make a Torch with a white light in it like the M600V has... ---side question, which generation Perst do you have, and what color 4 is it? |
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Quoted: Yeah I have my reasons for doing dual 14s I know they’re very heavy but personally I think I can live with it. I plan on eventually doing a MAWL but in the mean time I’d like to have an LAM. When I do go night shooting it’s usually not past 150m the video evidence I’ve seen shows them pushing the illum on the D2 way past that. Not trying to dismiss anything you said cause I’d love to get Binos at one point I planned on getting refurbed anvis’s and later transferring them to RNVG housings but I like the idea of being able to break off a nod and pass it on. I also understand there’s the mod 3 bravo but you have to understand Robert Henry gives a hell of a curve ball in those plans with his amazing prices I walked down the same path as you with the same reasoning. Here's what I was using and is one of the lightest setups available. 2 PVS14 and a ModArmory D-14 light weight bridge came to a total of 28ozs. If you went with a non gain Mod3 bravos are 22 ozs plus the weight of your helmet, counter weight, etc can be very heavy for either system. You can extend fishing weights off of a JArm or the end of your swingarm to get an idea how heavy it will be. If I did it all over again I'd rather have 2 seperate 14s or a 14 and a PVS7 if money is tight. I also had a D2 and they're do have about the reach of a MAWL C1+, a very clean illuminator that can be focused down to a hotspot, they're also about the same weight also. IMHO the onboard fire button could have placed in the middle for both had activation and the illuminator bezel is a little stiff to rotate. As for the LED illuminator and its faint pinkish glow, it can only be seen at a 2 degree angle to the illuminator @ 100 yards. If you have good light discipline you should be GTG. Besides my son got the D2 and he ain't complaining. RNVGs are very durable and one day I also hope to build one up. Just so you know if you go with an ANVIS 6/9 you have to buy a RNVG that excepts ANVIS glass. No doubt being able to break off a pod and give one to someone else is a great feature. A couple of things that you may not know. With all bridges you have to install a JArm, install a power pod, and/or disassemble/unscrew the bridge adapter to work as a monocular/single unit with the exception of the Norotos dual dovetail bridge mount ( 2X dual dovetail mounts and a bridge) I haven't seen one yet, but it's massive and very heavy according to Norotos specs. Yup too good of a price to pass up for BNVDs. I was thinking that the money I saved I could buy white phosphor tubes, but I didn't want to push my luck with the CFO (Chief Financial Officer) aka wifey. Whatever you end up with get out there and use them as much as possible. Find someone with private land to shoot on, night matches, take NV/low light classes, go on night hikes, look at the up at the stars especially if you're away from city lights, and have your kids if you have any look for hidden toys around the room at bed time. |
Youre lucky to be in Idaho, because you probably got quite a few places outdoors to shoot at night. I'm not that fortunate, but thankfully my local gun range I'm a member of has 24hr indoor access as well (8a-sunset outdoors), so i go and shoot my MP5 at 2am in the 25m range. It aint much, but it's better than not practicing at all. If you can't find land, look for a local indoor range that may allow no-light shooting. If you're hard pressed for anything, maybe consider getting a heavy semi/full bb gun to practice with, but i'd absolutely tell you to practice your reloads on your AR in your home with snapcaps or empties under NV. Just make completely sure that all the mags near you have either snapcaps or nothing and not ammo  MunnyShot is right, practice EVERYTHING. I really like the idea of having someone hide things for you to find. It probably gets you acquainted with depth perception and spacing pretty well. How much better do you like duals over a mono? I havent looked through duals, but i have to say, i really enjoy mono for the way it works. I'm left eye dominant, but shoot right handed, and I run my PVS14 over my left eye. I like it because i focus really well and naturally through the PVS with my left eye, and my right eye stays adjusted to the true conditions, has easy access to the optic (my main rifle has a 1-8 scope), can evaluate the outside world naturally and unassisted, and in an emergency it's ready to go whitelight without having to do some weird head-tilt low-shouldered neck-crunch maneuver to aim down sights with. I know duals add maybe 1° FoV, and give a better perceived spatial awareness, but is it absolutely always 100% worth it to get? I'd bridge 14s like him, keep a spare j-arm and stuff for the girlfriend, but I don't know if it's even worth it to me. |
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On your IR pointer/illum choice, why are you leaning towards US made? Was there something about the Perst-4 that made you not want to try the Perst-3 with illum? I realize there are good points to both choices (MAWL vs Perst), just wondering what your thinking is here. To the OP, I think having several aiming system options makes sense. I wouldn't want to depend on just one. |
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I have a D2 and a MAWL. MAWL is better for running and gunning due to the controls. And has less of a red glow signature out the front. D2 performs just as well as the MAWL and has a cleaner illuminator when dialed as tight as it goes. It takes longer to switch between modes and change the tightness of the illuminator than the MAWL. The illuminator is so damn clean though. I prefer the D2 for hunting. If you want a LAM that does it all so you can run & gun, take classes, and hunt; get a MAWL. If you only plan to hunt or target shoot get a D2 and save the money. In fact you can buy 2 for the price of the MAWL. I have both, so my MAWL is on my tacticool gun and my D2 is on my critter control 15-22. I would never spend MAWL money for any pure hunting purpose. I would actually like to get a few more D2’s for my thermal guns. Don’t get me wrong. The MAWL is a bad mofo. But unless you need to quickly switch between near and far, IR and Vis, etc... it’s not worth it. |
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