Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - N110 and 190gr sub x (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/8/2022 4:49:43 PM EDT
| Using this combo for 300 blackout pistol. What load length would be good to start with? |
|
Quoted: When loading the heavy long bullets in 300 blk, use 2.250. Just a hair under mag length. theyre flat points and have a cannelure, if you load them at 2.250 it wont be where the cannelure is. i only shoot mag fed 300blk so i crimp. OP keep this in mind (as well as the CBTO at that COAL). the latest hornady manual says to load them at 2.070"; i load them at 2.060-2.065". |
|
Quoted: theyre flat points and have a cannelure, if you load them at 2.250 it wont be where the cannelure is. i only shoot mag fed 300blk so i crimp. OP keep this in mind (as well as the CBTO at that COAL). the latest hornady manual says to load them at 2.070"; i load them at 2.060-2.065". |
|
Quoted: theyre flat points and have a cannelure, if you load them at 2.250 it wont be where the cannelure is. i only shoot mag fed 300blk so i crimp. OP keep this in mind (as well as the CBTO at that COAL). the latest hornady manual says to load them at 2.070"; i load them at 2.060-2.065". You don't need a cannelure to crimp if you use a Lee FCD. |
|
Playing around with GRT, I think I'm going to use 2.09. At 9.5 gr, that gets me close to 1040 fps. At 10 gr, it's about 1098 fps. I figure if 9.5 gr is pretty close to 1040 fps, I can reduce load length by .030 to see what accuracy is like and still be around 1060 fps. Trying to use as little powder as possible to see just how quiet I can get it. Function >noise though. |
|
Quoted: I'm anticipating cycling issues with the N110 maybe? So I could either load at 2.24/2.25ish with more powder or load 2.06/2.07ish with less powder, but I'm not sure about function at that length. Maybe I'm worrying about that for no reason. The only way to find out is to load a few up and shoot them. Hopefully you're using a can to help with cycling (im going to assume yes). I've shot as low as 545 fps when I loaded up my first subs out of my 6.25" (my math was way off). The rifle still cycled fine, but did not lock the bolt back. It was like shooting a 22. 
|
|
Quoted: The only way to find out is to load a few up and shoot them. Hopefully you're using a can to help with cycling (im going to assume yes). I've shot as low as 545 fps when I loaded up my first subs out of my 6.25" (my math was way off). The rifle still cycled fine, but did not lock the bolt back. It was like shooting a 22. I've used CFE BLACK and that'll cycle anything. It's also dirty and loud as shit. That was another question I had was how low can you go 
|
|
Quoted: Using this combo for 300 blackout pistol. What load length would be good to start with? I never finished load development with them, I had just started when my suppressor got out of jail. Then I had to buy a new barrel because my PSA upper's barrel did not have the threads cut right, huge misalignment on suppressor. Never went back to sub-x when I got new faxon barrel. I had a box of factory rounds, they averaged 2.07 OAL so that was where I started, bad accuracy. I was up to 2.1 OAL using IMR4227 and accuracy was improving significantly. That is where I stopped developing a load for the sub-x, and at that time a cold bore shot was hitting 1/2"+ higher than subsequent shots at 55 yards. I have hundreds of noslers 220 BT and was only ever able to get 100 of the sub-x's. Made the noslers work so never returned to the sub-x's I have left. By the way, OAL varies a fair amount, the ogive on the sub-x's I have was inconsistent by well over +/- 5/1000. |
|
You will not cycle an AR with N110 unless you have a massive gas port. Especially not with 190s. I had to get 220s up past 1300 FPS to reliably cycle with a carbine buffer and lightweight spring. That's with an 8.3" Seekins barrel. Use N120. That will cycle down to about 750 FPS. Maybe lower. |
|
Quoted: You will not cycle an AR with N110 unless you have a massive gas port. Especially not with 190s. I had to get 220s up past 1300 FPS to reliably cycle with a carbine buffer and lightweight spring. That's with an 8.3" Seekins barrel. Use N120. That will cycle down to about 750 FPS. Maybe lower. I plan on trying N120 also. |
|
Quoted: I never finished load development with them, I had just started when my suppressor got out of jail. Then I had to buy a new barrel because my PSA upper's barrel did not have the threads cut right, huge misalignment on suppressor. Never went back to sub-x when I got new faxon barrel. I had a box of factory rounds, they averaged 2.07 OAL so that was where I started, bad accuracy. I was up to 2.1 OAL using IMR4227 and accuracy was improving significantly. That is where I stopped developing a load for the sub-x, and at that time a cold bore shot was hitting 1/2"+ higher than subsequent shots at 55 yards. I have hundreds of noslers 220 BT and was only ever able to get 100 of the sub-x's. Made the noslers work so never returned to the sub-x's I have left. By the way, OAL varies a fair amount, the ogive on the sub-x's I have was inconsistent by well over +/- 5/1000. |
|
Quoted: You will not cycle an AR with N110 unless you have a massive gas port. Especially not with 190s. I had to get 220s up past 1300 FPS to reliably cycle with a carbine buffer and lightweight spring. That's with an 8.3" Seekins barrel. Use N120. That will cycle down to about 750 FPS. Maybe lower. Mine cycles fine with nosler 220 BT's and N110 at 1035-1045 fps . 9" faxon 5r gunner profile barrel and JP click adjustable gas block just one click down from full open. I have a polished buffer spring that is slightly less than a standard spring, but not much. Mine is not a carbine buffer tube, I have a rifle buffer tube, 3 oz buffer. It cycles fully without the suppressor on it. |
|
Quoted: Mine cycles fine with nosler 220 BT's and N110 at 1035-1045 fps . 9" faxon 5r gunner profile barrel and JP click adjustable gas block just one click down from full open. I have a polished buffer spring that is slightly less than a standard spring, but not much. Mine is not a carbine buffer tube, I have a rifle buffer tube, 3 oz buffer. It cycles fully without the suppressor on it. Do you know the size of your gas port? And charge weight? Not sure what my Seekins is, but even at 1250 FPS, JP SCS with three steel weights, and the lightest spring they make for it, and it still wouldn't cycle. And it wasn't even close. Charge weight was 9.5gr. That's even Suppressed. |
|
Quoted: Do you know the size of your gas port? And charge weight? Not sure what my Seekins is, but even at 1250 FPS, JP SCS with three steel weights, and the lightest spring they make for it, and it still wouldn't cycle. And it wasn't even close. Charge weight was 9.5gr. That's even Suppressed. |
|
Quoted: What was your seating depth? 2.220". I seat all my bullets 20-50 mils off the lands. I don't get hung up on OAL as a rule. Some of mine are under SAAMI minimums (particularly poly coated lead 9mm), and everything is good for my firearms. YMMV. To be clear, those were not 190 Subs. These were 220, either Berrys or Everglades. I use both. |
|
Quoted: Do you know the size of your gas port? And charge weight? I have no idea what size Faxon uses for their gas ports, it seemed to be same size as PSA used on their barrel. Nosler 220 Ballistic Tip. New starline brass(it has lower case capacity than most), 8.4 gr N110, 2.065 OAL, very light crimp with Lee FCD (factory crimp die) forgot to mention. I have loaded some once fired starline brass. If I don't anneal it first, it creates enough extra pressure to damage the nosler BT. I could feel it when seating, I seat with a lee hand tool for feel, sure enough it damaged the bullet. When annealed, once fired is fine. one more edit: I use RCBS blackout dies, the seater that came with it cannot load a Nosler BT without damaging it. I called them and they had never had a Nosler 220 BT, they sent me a new plug for the seater that would allow the BT to get deeper in the plug and contact further down the bullet. It works but is not ideal, they told me I could send them a few bullets and they would make one for it specifically. I was amazed they sent me a plug free, and said they would make me one free if I needed it. |
|
Tested N110 just a minute ago. I love this powder. Definitely more quiet and way cleaner. Velocities as follows: 10 gr - 1111 9.5 gr - 1073 9 gr - 1028, 1023 8.5 gr - 996, 980 All functioned and BHO. Going to test between 8.5 gr and 9.5 gr. I have a hunch I'll be 9 gr +- .1 gr. Accuracy at 10 yards was a ragged hole, going to see about 50 yards next time. |
|
Quoted: Tested N110 just a minute ago. I love this powder. Definitely more quiet and way cleaner. Velocities as follows: 10 gr - 1111 9.5 gr - 1073 9 gr - 1028, 1023 8.5 gr - 996, 980 All functioned and BHO. Going to test between 8.5 gr and 9.5 gr. I have a hunch I'll be 9 gr +- .1 gr. Accuracy at 10 yards was a ragged hole, going to see about 50 yards next time. Very interesting results. Which barrel, exactly, are you running? |
|
Quoted: Very interesting results. Which barrel, exactly, are you running? I was kind of shocked that they functioned as is. Makes me want to grab some N105 just to try it. |
|
Quoted: V seven 6.5" barrel. From what I understand, they use a gas system that is slightly shorter than pistol length and I think their gas port size is .105. Don't quote me on it though. I was kind of shocked that they functioned as is. Makes me want to grab some N105 just to try it. Grab it quick. It was discontinued. 
|
|
I currently use 190 subx with N120, 10.4 grains of powder and COAL is 2.075, shooting an AR pistol with 8.5" ballistic advantage barrel. I bought some N110 to load the 190 subx and 125 TGK, will start working some loads tomorrow to see how the N110 performs. ETA: 8.1 grains of N110 perform almost exactly the same as 10.4 grains of N120 out of my pistol, everything else stayed the same. |
|
Quoted: I currently use 190 subx with N120, 10.4 grains of powder and COAL is 2.075, shooting an AR pistol with 8.5" ballistic advantage barrel. I bought some N110 to load the 190 subx and 125 TGK, will start working some loads tomorrow to see how the N110 performs. ETA: 8.1 grains of N110 perform almost exactly the same as 10.4 grains of N120 out of my pistol, everything else stayed the same. Guess my gas port is rediculously small. Even at 1200 FPS I couldn't get it to cycle. Even with a carbine buffer and reduced power spring. N120 cycles down to below 800 FPS in the same exact rifle. Joke's on me I guess. 
|
|
Quoted: Guess my gas port is rediculously small. Even at 1200 FPS I couldn't get it to cycle. Even with a carbine buffer and reduced power spring. N120 cycles down to below 800 FPS in the same exact rifle. Joke's on me I guess. I have a seekins adjustable gas block but it is all the way open so basically the port on the barrel must be thr right size that it cycles at 1000 fps with either powder and throws the brass at 3 o'clock. |
|
N110 velocity ladder: 8 gr - 879 8.2 gr - 930 8.4 gr - 950 8.6 gr - 990 8.8 gr - 1003 9 gr - 1026 9.2 gr - 1035 9.4 gr - 1072 9.6 gr - 1066 I think the obvious nodes are 8.7gr and 9.1 gr. May be a node at 9.5, but the velocity is a little high for me. What you guys think?  Shot at 50 yards. |
|
Quoted: N110 velocity ladder: 8 gr - 879 8.2 gr - 930 8.4 gr - 950 8.6 gr - 990 8.8 gr - 1003 9 gr - 1026 9.2 gr - 1035 9.4 gr - 1072 9.6 gr - 1066 I think the obvious nodes are 8.7gr and 9.1 gr. May be a node at 9.5, but the velocity is a little high for me. What you guys think? https://i.postimg.cc/k5YCJdfP/IMG-20220723-193636051-HDR.jpg Shot at 50 yards. What was shot count and ES on the 9.5 load? How many rounds between cleaning, and how much grime? Just consider that grime introduces friction so it may be advisable to keep the load on the higher side. Also helps burn cleaner. That said if you don't have concerns with that I prefer to keep my subs in the 1,000 FPS range personally. The last batch using N120 I actually went 950. |
|
Quoted: What was shot count and ES on the 9.5 load? How many rounds between cleaning, and how much grime? Just consider that grime introduces friction so it may be advisable to keep the load on the higher side. Also helps burn cleaner. That said if you don't have concerns with that I prefer to keep my subs in the 1,000 FPS range personally. The last batch using N120 I actually went 950. |
|
Quoted: One shot per charge weight. Satterlee test. I don't think one charge per weight is what Scott recommends. Your scale likely isn't accurate enough to give decent velocity nodes with a sample size of 1. I think Scott uses 10 rounds per doesn't he? But even 3 or 5 would be better. A typical powder measure can be +/- 0.1 grains easy. I'd load a bit more before settling in velocity notes if you're really worried about precision. If not then it's all kinda moot and just pick something. The paper will never know the difference. |
|
Quoted: I don't think one charge per weight is what Scott recommends. Your scale likely isn't accurate enough to give decent velocity nodes with a sample size of 1. I think Scott uses 10 rounds per doesn't he? But even 3 or 5 would be better. A typical powder measure can be +/- 0.1 grains easy. I'd load a bit more before settling in velocity notes if you're really worried about precision. If not then it's all kinda moot and just pick something. The paper will never know the difference. 28:55 I'm using an FX120i. Looking at the previous test vs this one, the velocity seems consistent with the charge weight. I know it's pretty minimal. |
|
Quoted: https://youtu.be/WSSaiX7akaQ 28:55 I'm using an FX120i. Looking at the previous test vs this one, the velocity seems consistent with the charge weight. I know it's pretty minimal. Thanks for the link, I'll check that out. I always load 5-10 at each weight. I have the ATV4 w/FX-120i. Makes working up ladders a breeze. Crazy that it's been almost a year since I got it already!
|
|
Quoted: I currently use 190 subx with N120, 10.4 grains of powder and COAL is 2.075, shooting an AR pistol with 8.5" ballistic advantage barrel. I bought some N110 to load the 190 subx and 125 TGK, will start working some loads tomorrow to see how the N110 performs. ETA: 8.1 grains of N110 perform almost exactly the same as 10.4 grains of N120 out of my pistol, everything else stayed the same. I never tried n120, but my experience on blackout pistol's shooting subsonic is anything slower burning than H110/W296, 11FS just becomes dirtier the slower the powder gets, and the amount of unburned powder collecting in the suppressor gets extreme by the time you get as slow as accurate 5744. IMR-4227 won't even properly expand the neck on subsonic loads, the outside of the neck get's quite sooty shooting it, 5744 forget about it. Not to mention the faster powders are more quiet with a suppressor on the short pistols. |
|
Quoted: I never tried n120, but my experience on blackout pistol's shooting subsonic is anything slower burning than H110/W296, 11FS just becomes dirtier the slower the powder gets, and the amount of unburned powder collecting in the suppressor gets extreme by the time you get as slow as accurate 5744. IMR-4227 won't even properly expand the neck on subsonic loads, the outside of the neck get's quite sooty shooting it, 5744 forget about it. Not to mention the faster powders are more quiet with a suppressor on the short pistols. Cycling might be problematic, but we'll find out. |
|
Deviating a bit from the original thread. I managed to find a couple hundred 175 gr. Sub-X. I’m really low on N110, but I have a pound on N120. I used Viht published starting load for a 185 gr. bullet. Although the OAL they used for their Lapua bullet doesn’t work for the Sub-X. I had to go a bit shorter. I tested these through three rifles. I have a 10” SSK Contender barrel chambered in .300 Whisper. I’ve had it for close to 20 years now. I also have a 16” Noveske barrel chambered in .300-FB. I also built that one some time before the Blackout chambering was submitted to SAAMI by AAC/Rem. The third is a more recent 10.5” PSA upper.  The Contender functioned flawlessly.  it gave me an average velocity of 950 fps. and groups of 1-1/8” at 50 yds. The 16” Noveske gave me 884 fps. Groups from just over an inch to just under 2 inches. Although I’m going to blame the shooter (me) for the large group. These also cycled flawlessly and locked the bolt fully back, whether suppressed or unsuppressed. I was shooting a standard rifle buffer & spring. The PSA upper averaged 952 fps. It failed to load the next round twice, and did not lock the bolt back fully. I only shot this one unsuppressed. Group size was 1-3/8”. Standard carbine buffer & spring. I think I’ll add a suppressor and maybe bump the powder charge up a couple tenths. 
|
|
Quoted: Deviating a bit from the original thread. I managed to find a couple hundred 175 gr. Sub-X. I'm really low on N110, but I have a pound on N120. I used Viht published starting load for a 185 gr. bullet. Although the OAL they used for their Lapua bullet doesn't work for the Sub-X. I had to go a bit shorter. I tested these through three rifles. I have a 10" SSK Contender barrel chambered in .300 Whisper. I've had it for close to 20 years now. I also have a 16" Noveske barrel chambered in .300-FB. I also built that one some time before the Blackout chambering was submitted to SAAMI by AAC/Rem. The third is a more recent 10.5" PSA upper. https://i.imgur.com/lh34Rwr.jpg The Contender functioned flawlessly. it gave me an average velocity of 950 fps. and groups of 1-1/8" at 50 yds. The 16" Noveske gave me 884 fps. Groups from just over an inch to just under 2 inches. Although I'm going to blame the shooter (me) for the large group. These also cycled flawlessly and locked the bolt fully back, whether suppressed or unsuppressed. I was shooting a standard rifle buffer & spring. The PSA upper averaged 952 fps. It failed to load the next round twice, and did not lock the bolt back fully. I only shot this one unsuppressed. Group size was 1-3/8". Standard carbine buffer & spring. I think I'll add a suppressor and maybe bump the powder charge up a couple tenths. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55694/D1262D3F-C159-4E2C-A7A1-D1B1600EB8B9-2470434.jpg |
|
I was rummaging around on Vihta's site and I found a pdf that half way down has the full list of their powders with grain size, volumetric density, burn rate relative to n110 based on manometric bomb tests, and energy density. They based the burn rate on N110 being the baseline = 100 https://www.vihtavuori.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Vihtavuori-IP-brochure-2018_ENG_www.pdf The three powders in this thread: Burning rate from manometric bomb test in lab N110 = 100 burning rate mm mm g/l J/g Powder Burning rate*) Length Diameter Bulk density Energy content N105 123 1,1 0,8 730 3950 N110 100 1,1 0,8 800 3700 N120 83 0.8 0.6 860 3700 |
|
Quoted: Good information, what OAL did you use? Quoted: Quoted: Deviating a bit from the original thread. I managed to find a couple hundred 175 gr. Sub-X. I'm really low on N110, but I have a pound on N120. I used Viht published starting load for a 185 gr. bullet. Although the OAL they used for their Lapua bullet doesn't work for the Sub-X. I had to go a bit shorter. I tested these through three rifles. I have a 10" SSK Contender barrel chambered in .300 Whisper. I've had it for close to 20 years now. I also have a 16" Noveske barrel chambered in .300-FB. I also built that one some time before the Blackout chambering was submitted to SAAMI by AAC/Rem. The third is a more recent 10.5" PSA upper. https://i.imgur.com/lh34Rwr.jpg The Contender functioned flawlessly. it gave me an average velocity of 950 fps. and groups of 1-1/8" at 50 yds. The 16" Noveske gave me 884 fps. Groups from just over an inch to just under 2 inches. Although I'm going to blame the shooter (me) for the large group. These also cycled flawlessly and locked the bolt fully back, whether suppressed or unsuppressed. I was shooting a standard rifle buffer & spring. The PSA upper averaged 952 fps. It failed to load the next round twice, and did not lock the bolt back fully. I only shot this one unsuppressed. Group size was 1-3/8". Standard carbine buffer & spring. I think I'll add a suppressor and maybe bump the powder charge up a couple tenths. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55694/D1262D3F-C159-4E2C-A7A1-D1B1600EB8B9-2470434.jpg My OAL was 1.990”, which works out pretty close to the .250” ogive method that dryflah sometimes talks about. |
|
Quoted: Deviating a bit from the original thread. I managed to find a couple hundred 175 gr. Sub-X. I’m really low on N110, but I have a pound on N120. I used Viht published starting load for a 185 gr. bullet. Although the OAL they used for their Lapua bullet doesn’t work for the Sub-X. I had to go a bit shorter. I tested these through three rifles. I have a 10” SSK Contender barrel chambered in .300 Whisper. I’ve had it for close to 20 years now. I also have a 16” Noveske barrel chambered in .300-FB. I also built that one some time before the Blackout chambering was submitted to SAAMI by AAC/Rem. The third is a more recent 10.5” PSA upper. https://i.imgur.com/lh34Rwr.jpg The Contender functioned flawlessly. it gave me an average velocity of 950 fps. and groups of 1-1/8” at 50 yds. The 16” Noveske gave me 884 fps. Groups from just over an inch to just under 2 inches. Although I’m going to blame the shooter (me) for the large group. These also cycled flawlessly and locked the bolt fully back, whether suppressed or unsuppressed. I was shooting a standard rifle buffer & spring. The PSA upper averaged 952 fps. It failed to load the next round twice, and did not lock the bolt back fully. I only shot this one unsuppressed. Group size was 1-3/8”. Standard carbine buffer & spring. I think I’ll add a suppressor and maybe bump the powder charge up a couple tenths. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/55694/D1262D3F-C159-4E2C-A7A1-D1B1600EB8B9-2470434.jpg So you used 10.2gr? |
|
Ok - some good info, some strange results. Using 10.5 gr. of N120 with the 175 gr. SUB-X bullets unsuppressed, I got a 50-yd. group of 1-3/4". The chrono was acting very strange for this string. All five shots read between 293 and 328 fps. These were not the first rounds I shot over the chrono either. Everything before gave reasonable/expected results. All hit the paper, and at the same POI as when I was shooting unsuppressed the other day. I checked and re-set the chrono and the next string seemed more as expected. Shooting the same load again did lock the bolt back in the 10.5" PSA rifle when shooting suppressed. Average velocity was 966 fps. Although I intend to only shoot the subs suppressed only, I'd prefer to have a load that functions the gun completely even without the suppressor. Unfortunately the can caused a large POI shift and I did not get any hits on the target. Interestingly, shooting my standard supersonic 110 gr. VMAX load at 2100 fps. the POI shift is almost nonexistent. Odd. Back to the 10.5 gr. N120 / 175 SUB-X load - the 16" Noveske averaged 1006 fps. and give the best group at 1.188". The Contender averaged 1090 fps. and 1.938". That barrel has always shot faster than the others. More chronograph weirdness cropped up at this point. This was when I was playing with my 110 gr. load, validating the POI in the PSA gun. I finished off the mag, shooting through the Noveske barrel. I was getting readings anywhere from 2350 to just over 2800 fps. Average of the 5 shots was almost 2700 fps. This same load gave an average velocity of 2314 fps. last time I shot it over the chrono through this gun. I highly doubt I was getting 2700 fps. from a 110 gr. 300BLK, even with a longer barrel. So the chrono is suspect. But that string of 5-shots produced group of 0.875" at 50 yards. Go figure. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - N110 and 190gr sub x (Page 1 of 2)
Armory Sponsor
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter